Help: info on easter carol

Subject: Help: info on easter carol
From: Stewie
Date: 01 May 02 - 02:28 AM

Can anyone provide me with information relating to an Easter carol titled 'Mary mother come and see'. I have it on a dub of an old Topic LP by the Valley Folk Topic 12T192. I don't know whether the original album had any liner notes. Does anyone have a copy of the vinyl? I have had no success with a net search. Google only gives a link to the Valley Folk in a Topic album index and to a record company that gives an attribution to Scottish composer James Douglas. If it is the same piece, he may have made a choral arrangement, but I doubt he had any hand in its composition. It has the feel of a traditional folk carol.

Any background info on this lovely carol would be most appreciated.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: info on easter carol
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 May 02 - 05:45 AM

The carol with that title is in Greene's Early English Carols (Oxford; 2nd ed., No. 157B). I'm not at home now. I'll check up on the book when I come home.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: info on easter carol
From: Stewie
Date: 01 May 02 - 07:19 AM

Thanks, Masato.

Subject: Lyr Add: MARY MOTHER, COME AND SEE
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:13 AM

There're five versions (157A-E) of "Mary mother, come and see" in Richard Leighton Greene's The Early English Carols, 2nd ed. (Oxford, 1997; texts only). The following is version C (British Museum. MS. Sloane 2593; XV century). Notes with asterisks are mine.

Nowel, el, el, el, el, el, el, el,
el, el, el, el, el, el, el, el!

[1]
'Mary moder, cum and se:
Thi Sone is naylyd on a tre,
Hand and fot; he may not go;
His body is woundyn al in woo*. [*woe]

[2]
'Thi swete Sone that thou hast born
To saue mankynde, that was forlorn,
His bed is wrethin* in a thorn; [*wreathed]
His blysful body is all to-torn.'

[3]
Quan* he this tale began to telle, [*When]
Mary wold non lenger* dwelle, [*longer]
But hyid* here faste to that hylle [*hied]
Ther Jhesu his blod began to spyll.

[4]
'Myn swete Sone, that art me dere,
Qwy* han men hangyd the* here? [*Why, *thee]
Thi hed is wrethin in a brere*; [*briar]
Myn louly Sone, qwer is thin chere*? [*cheer]

[5]
'Thin swete body that in me rest,
Thin comely mowth that I haue kest!
Now on rode is mad thi nest;
Leue chyld, quat is me best?'

[6] 'Womman, to Jon I the betake;
Jon, kyp* this womman for myn sake. [*keep?]
For synful sowlys* my deth I take [*souls]
On rode I hange for manys sake.

[7]
'This game alone me muste play;
For synful sowle I deye today;
Ther is non wyght that goth be the way
Of myn peynys can wel say.'

This carol is not contained in John Steven's two carol books (Mediaeval Carols and Early Tudor Songs and Carols, Musica Britsannica series), so there seems to be no music left.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: info on easter carol
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:33 AM

Michael Hurd composed "Canticles of the Virgin Mary" (first performed in 1965), in which "Mary, mother, come and see" is contained. The words are edited from this 15th century carol. The score was published by Novello.

Subject: RE: Help: info on easter carol
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:58 AM

Pedant alert
verb to "carol" menas to sing, dance and make merry. archaic use but not what we assume these days

Subject: Lyr Add: MARY MOTHER COME AND SEE
From: Stewie
Date: 01 May 02 - 07:46 PM

Masato, many thanks for going to that trouble. I appreciate it very much. For comparison, here is my transcription of the Valley Folk recording which differs in a number of respects from what you have posted. It would be interesting to know how this version accords with Hurd's edited text. Thanks for the lead in that regard.

MARY MOTHER COME AND SEE

O Mary mother come and see
Thy son is nail-ed to a tree
Hand and foot, he may not go
His body all is wrapped in woe

From his head unto his toe
His skin is torn and flesh also
His body is both wan and blue
And he is nail-ed on a tree

When John this tale began to tell
Mary would no longer dwell
But ran there fast unto that hill
Where she might her son to see

'My sweet son that to me art dear
'What hast thou done, why art thou here
'Thy head all twisted round with briar
'My lovely son what may this be?'

'Alas, alas, now may I cry
'Why might I not with my son die?'
'This game alone mother I must play
'For sinful souls I die today'

O Mary mother, grieve not ill
From heaven he came this to fulfil
He took his death with a perfect will
To bring man to his liberty

Source: transcribed from The Valley Folk 'All Bells In Paradise' Topic LP 12T192.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: MARY, MOTHER, COME AND SEE
From: masato sakurai
Date: 02 May 02 - 08:22 AM

Stewie, the text you posted seems to be a composite taken from several versions. The first stanza is from no. 157A (Huntington Libary. Christmas carolles newley Imprnted (Richard Kele) c. 1550; p. [31]), the second & third from no. 157B (Bodleian Library. MS. Eng. poet. e. I; XV century), the fourth from no. 157A(?), and the fifth & sixth from no. 158 (Balliol College, Oxford, MS. 354; XVI century). Michael Hurd's lyrics are as follows:

MARY, MOTHER, COME AND SEE

'Mary, mother, come and see
Thy child is nailed on a tree.
Hand and foot he may not go,
His body is wounded, all in woe.

Thy own sweet son that thou hast born
To save mankind that was forlorn,
His head is wreathed in a thorn,
His blessed body it is to-torn.'

'Mary, mother, come and see
Thy child is nailed on a tree.'

And when this tale they came to tell,
Mary would no longer dwell
But hied her straight to the hill
Her son that she might see.

'My own dear son that art so dear
Why have they hanged thee here?
Thy head is crowned with a briar,
My lovely son where is thy cheer?'

'Mother, my leave I now must take,
My body dieth for mankind's sake,
A lonely game I now must play
For sinful souls that are to die.'

Pray we all to that blessed Son,
And bring us to bliss that is above.

Amen, Amen, Amen, in charity.

(Source: Michael Hurd, Canticles of the Virgin Mary (For SSA and Piano), Novello, n.d., pp. 8-13)

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: info on easter carol
From: Stewie
Date: 02 May 02 - 08:48 AM

Masato, your resources and research skills seem limitleas. As they say in Oz, your blood is worth bottling.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: info on easter carol
From: Anglo
Date: 02 May 02 - 09:30 AM

Unfortunately my Valley Folk LP seems to have gone AWOL, so at the moment I can't listen to it or check the liner notes, but I do know that A. L. Lloyd was running that side of Topic at the time, and he said something like: "If you want to record for Topic, this is the LP I want to put out and these are the songs." He gave them the music, and he gave them very little advance time to put it together, which is why many of the arrangements are much sparser than the songs they were doing in their club performances. So if the texts are composites, you can be more certain that it was Bert Lloyd's work than of Arsenal winning the double.

Subject: RE: Help: info on easter carol
From: rich-joy
Date: 03 May 02 - 08:36 AM

"O Mary Mother Come and See
The first printing of this was in Richard Kele's "Christmas carolles newely inprynted" published c. 1550 in London. It's a small, clumsily printed book containing some heartshaking masterpieces of popular religious poetry - all long since vanished from tradition, alas. We have no tune for the carol so I have fitted a melody belonging to a tune-family that over and again provided airs for solemn texts. The tune has some relation to the melody of the eighteenth century Methodist hymn : "He dies, the Friend of Sinners dies", likewise to the American shape-note hymn curiously titled "French Broad" (no. 256 in Southern Harmony). In some phrases it is reminiscent of versions of "Died for Love", "The Isle of Cloy", and "Lord Bateman". Anyway, a good carol - it seemed worth reviving"

Stewie, I finally found my old photocopy of the liner notes, (1968 release by Topic), but it is barely legible. However, I think the above is correct ...
Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Help: info on easter carol
From: rich-joy
Date: 03 May 02 - 08:40 AM

Oh yes, it does mention elsewhere that this was one of Lloyd's arrangements ...

Subject: RE: Help: info on easter carol
From: Stewie
Date: 03 May 02 - 08:25 PM

Anglo and rich-joy, many thanks for the information. Albeit, in the note posted above by RJ, Lloyd did not mention cobbling a text from a number of versions, it is quite likely that he did. Perhaps that is what RJ is referring to in 'one of Lloyd's arrangements' - tune and text. Lloyd confirms, however, that the carol originated as 'popular religious poetry'. Thanks to all for your contributions.

--Stewie.