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Lyr Add: Hogseye Man

DigiTrad:
HOG-EYE MAN
THE LIFEBOAT MAN


Related threads:
I give up. What's a HOGEYE? (116)
Lyr Req: Peggy in the garden? / Hog-Eye Man (2)
Lyr Add: Predecessor song to 'Hogeye Man' (29)
Lyr Req: Dirty Hog eye man? (57)
Hogeyed man (16)


Ted from Australia 18 Apr 98 - 06:33 AM
barstow 19 Apr 98 - 09:09 PM
dick greenhaus 19 Apr 98 - 11:06 PM
Joe Offer 20 Apr 98 - 12:49 AM
Ted from Australia 20 Apr 98 - 05:13 AM
Frank in the swamps 20 Apr 98 - 05:16 AM
Martin Ryan. 23 Apr 98 - 02:22 PM
Barry Finn 23 Apr 98 - 08:28 PM
Bruce 24 Apr 98 - 01:55 PM
Paul Stamler 24 Apr 98 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,frank 28 Dec 07 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,JimP 29 Dec 07 - 01:43 AM
GUEST,Sweeds 24 Mar 08 - 08:31 PM
Charley Noble 24 Mar 08 - 08:43 PM
toadfrog 24 Mar 08 - 08:59 PM
EBarnacle 24 Mar 08 - 10:15 PM
Gurney 25 Mar 08 - 01:18 AM
GUEST,Poppagnome 22 May 08 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Lighter 22 May 08 - 02:14 PM
vectis 22 May 08 - 08:35 PM
GUEST 23 May 08 - 10:51 AM
Santa 23 May 08 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,jones 18 Aug 08 - 12:34 AM
Dead Horse 18 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM
curmudgeon 18 Aug 08 - 05:47 PM
yrlancslad 20 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM
Barry Finn 21 Aug 08 - 12:21 AM
Lighter 21 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM
yrlancslad 21 Aug 08 - 04:37 PM
Rowan 21 Aug 08 - 07:57 PM
Jim Dixon 23 Aug 08 - 12:22 AM
Lighter 23 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM
Gibb Sahib 22 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM
Gibb Sahib 22 Jul 09 - 12:07 PM
Lighter 22 Jul 09 - 03:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Jul 09 - 08:58 PM
Gibb Sahib 23 Jul 09 - 10:15 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM
shipcmo 16 Nov 10 - 09:08 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: HOGSEYE MAN
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 18 Apr 98 - 06:33 AM

Here are the words to a chantey that I seem to have been singing forever.
Can anyone help with the origins of THE HOGSEYE MAN? Who were they and what was their function? A cursory search of the net revealed zip.
Regards all.

HOGSEYE MAN

The hogseye man is the man for me,
As he comes in sailin' o'er the sea.

CHORUS: To me hogseye!
Row row navvies to me hogseye,
Row the boat ashore to me hogseye, ah,
She loves the hogseye man!

Oh, Sally's in the garden pickin' up peas
With her long yeller hair hangin' down her knees.

And hand me down my walkin' cane.
I'm going to see Miss Sally Jane.

Oh, and who's been here since I been gone,
But a big buck nigger with his sea-boots on.

If he is here next time I pass,
Take a running jump at his big fat leg.

Oh, Sally in the parlor sittin' on me knee,
Kissin' of the sailor who's home from sea.

Sally's in the garden siftin' sand,
With the hogseye man sittin' hand in hand.

Sally in the kitchen, kneadin' duff,
And the cheeks of her arse goin' chuff, chuff, chuff.

Sally in the garden pickin' up peas,
With a lot of little hogseyes round her knees.

Oh, the hogseye man is the man for me,
For he is blind and he cannot see.

Oh, a hogseye ship and a hogseye crew,
A hogseye mate and a skipper too.


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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query
From: barstow
Date: 19 Apr 98 - 09:09 PM

Stan Hugill's "Shanties from the Seve Seas" has a paragraph on The Hog-Eye Man , the gist of which is that it refers to canal men or "ditch -hogs", and was a "sarcastic phrase used by American deep-watermen to denote sailors of inland waterways..." He`also lists The Ox-Eye Man and The Hawks-Eye Man as alternative titles.

Your verses are pretty much the same.

Chris B. Siegel


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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Apr 98 - 11:06 PM

Hi- The term is generally "Hogeye". It wouln't surprise me at allto find a set of words in the DT database.


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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 98 - 12:49 AM

Or, maybe HOG-EYE MAN, which one can find by searching for "Sally Jane," of course. Search the database can be a challenge at times, but it's always a very worthwhile challenge. You never know what else you might find in your search.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 20 Apr 98 - 05:13 AM

Thanx all,sterling information as usual. Regards. Ted


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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 20 Apr 98 - 05:16 AM

The Hogeye man is also a metaphor for the "Muddliewark", I mean the "Johnson", I mean the "Tubesnake" I mean the "one eyed man who cannot see" I mean......

You know. Frank.


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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 23 Apr 98 - 02:22 PM

Following up on Barstow's "ditch-hogs": Whall in "Sea Songs & Shanties" (1910 1st Ed) says that the song "dates from 1849-50" during the California goldrush. He claims barges used on the canals for cargo were called "hog-eyes" and implies the song was sung by negroes manning them. Mind you, he also says "The derivation of the name (of the barges) is unknown to me."

In a footnote, he mentions that most of the verses were unprintable.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Apr 98 - 08:28 PM

There was a tape of Belfast protest songs, sung by kids & a version of The Hog Eye Man was there, as The Bogside Man. I have nothing else that I can add on that, except it had to be the strangest version I'd ever heard. Barry


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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query
From: Bruce
Date: 24 Apr 98 - 01:55 PM

FYI, there is a music shop called Hogeye in Evanston, IL. Founded by Jan Burda, now run by Jim Craig.


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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query
From: Paul Stamler
Date: 24 Apr 98 - 02:02 PM

There are also inland versions, from river men; one chorus is "Railroad nigger with a hogeye".

There's also a fiddle tune from the Ozark Mountains (southern Missouri, northern Arkansas) with the chorus:

Row the boat ashore with a hogeye, hogeye
Row the boat ashore with a hogeyed man.

This song has floating verses; a couple include:

I went down to New Orleans
Sat me down to the table
Got so full of that hogeyed meat
The grease ran out my navel

I would not marry a schoolteacher
Tell you the reason why
She blows her nose in old corn bread
And calls it chicken pie

Peace. Paul


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: GUEST,frank
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:42 PM

It's also used in a few old blues as a euphemism for the female very naughty bits as opposed to the moderately naughty bits


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: GUEST,JimP
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 01:43 AM

Er, well, yes; the "man in the boat" -- the boatman, aka hogeye man. Always seemed pretty clear to me.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: GUEST,Sweeds
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:31 PM

I can't find the actual dates to the Hog-Eye Man shanty anywhere. All I could find is dates that range from 1840's to the 50's. Does anyone know the actual date of this song?

Sweeds


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:43 PM

It's extremely rare to be able to track any sea shanty back before the late 1840's, unless it was adapted from a broadside, minstrel, or music hall song.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: toadfrog
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:59 PM

Fairly common phrase in old-timey music. One of the more acceptable versions:

"Here am I, sittin' on a log, finger on the trigger and my eye on the hog (got the old hog-eye, heh heh)."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:15 PM

Paul, your schoolteacher verse can also be found in Old Joe Clark as:

Nevr marry an old widow,
I'll tell you the reason why--
She blows her nose in old corn bread
And calls it chicken pie.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 01:18 AM

Just an observation: Nearly all versions that I've heard from English, Aussie, and Kiwi singers are 'Hogs-eye.'

And they all have the Punching Duff line in them.....
And it is always arse.....

The folk process.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: GUEST,Poppagnome
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:42 AM

Had an old sea-dog of an uncle long gone to DV's Locker who was given to singing this song and the vulgarity of the lyrics was proportional to the amount of grog he'd imbibed but he always used to the words "au'd zeaman" ( sung zay-mon )local adaptation pr'aps! the meaning was clear via lewed gestures when the women folk were off making tea - or getting the rolling pin!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:14 PM

And what were those lyrics, Poppagnome? After he'd imbibed, that is.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: vectis
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:35 PM

I got it that the Hogseye man was from the Tennessee (how in heck do you spell that?) River and he was looked down on because he never went to sea.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:51 AM

I found the lyric below by googling. We used to sing it as a round at school. We definitely had "san francisco" in the lyric and "Navvy" was substituted with "Feller" Probably 'cos at the time "Navvy" was derogative term used for Irish immigrant workmen and even in those distant un-pc '60s they didn't want to offend. Maybe even railroad feller was the original...

And a hog-eye
Railroad navvy with his hog-eye
Row ashore, and a hog-eye oh
She wants the hog-eye man

Oh go fetch me down my riding cane
For I'm goin' to see my darlin' Jane

Oh the hog-eye men are all the go
When they come down to San Francisco

Now it's, Who's been here since I've been gone
A railroad navvy with his sea-boots on

Oh Sally in the garden picking peas
Her golden hair hanging down to her knees

Oh Sally in the garden shelling peas
With a young hog-eye sittin' on her knees

Oh a hog-eye ship and a hog-eye crew
A hog-eye mate and skipper too

(as sung by Ian Campbell)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Santa
Date: 23 May 08 - 01:53 PM

Always been Hog-eye from any singer I've heard in England. As they probably got it from Stan Hugill that fits, but it does make Gurney's comment surprising.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: GUEST,jones
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:34 AM

there was a band in east anglia in the 90's called hogseye played blues.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Dead Horse
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM

Guest above wrote..."We definitely had "san francisco" in the lyric and "Navvy" was substituted with "Feller" Probably 'cos at the time "Navvy" was derogative term used for Irish immigrant workmen and even in those distant un-pc '60s they didn't want to offend. Maybe even railroad feller was the original..."
Sorry, "Railroad nigger with his hogseye" is the original, so you can see why the PC brigade changed it.
I would rather sing the original and be damned, than sing stuff cobbled up by the chicken hearted. But if I thought that my audience may be offended, I would either not sing it at all, or would explain that those were the words sung by the singers of the time, and that they were mostly "free men of colour" too.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: curmudgeon
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:47 PM

One should hesitate before claiming a particular version to be the "original."

The earliest printed version from Whall gives the line as:

"Railroad nigger with his sea boots on"

Terry , who was most adamant that the title was "Hogseye Man" offers:

"Some big buck nigger with his sea boots on." and an alternative line,

"You Yankee Jack wid de sea boots on."

Colcord offers "Some big buck nigger wid his sea boots on."

Abd finally, from Harlow, "Railroad nigga with his sea boots on."

I rarely do this song for fear of unconciously singing the wrong lines in the wrong place. This was not a concern for Jack as racial stereotypes and epithets were freely and good naturedly exchanged among all ethnic groups - Tom


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: yrlancslad
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM

According to Rogers "Profanisaurus Rex" the hogs eye is that male orifice through which urine and sperm erupt, I've also heard it refer to female genitalia because of the lush eye lashes possesed by most pigs (hogs)but I can't give you references for that other than Lancashire coal mines circa 1956.
I can see sailors on inland waterways being called "Ditch-hogs" (Terry) but where does the hogs eye come in? Also a careful reading of Hugill indicates that he doesn't know wether the meaning was obscene or not, he only points out that Terrys' explanation is not obscene, while he admits that the verses were indeed indecent.I think it unlikely that the verses should be obscene and the chorus not.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:21 AM

"Round the Corner Sally"

The hogeye man's the thing for me
They say he's blind & cannot see"

can't remember where I got this verse from, sorry

Barry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM

It would be interesting to know exactly how "hogeye" barges got their name. The Oxford English Dictionary does not include the word and references are very rare. Whall(1910)is the earliest and best authority that the "San Francisco barge" meaning even existed. There's an American fiddle tune from before the Civil War called "Hogeye" or "The Hogeye Man," but without any melodic similarity to the shanty, as far as I can hear.

I can't prove it, but the original "hog-eye" man may well have been blind, or at least nearsighted enough to squint all the time. (Hogs have tiny eyes.) The Menasha (Wisconsin) Advocate of Jan. 18, 1855, p.2, refers to a "queer-looking, long-legged, short-bodied, white-hair, hog eye, funny sort of" feller. At least my guess is that his eye or eyes resembled those of a hog.

Wikipedia refers to eight tiny locations in the U.S.once known as "Hog-Eye," seven of them in the adjoining states of Missouri, Texas, and Arkansas. Some have changed their names. One chose "Haggai" as its "new" name. Perhaps they got their designation from being "a small compact place sunk in a hollow," as Wikipedia asserts.

It also asserts that the "Hog-Eye" in Vernon Co., Missouri, was "renamed Nevada in 1855." Maybe so, but the N.Y. Times referred to it as "Hog's Eye" on the front page of its issue of Oct. 17, 1861.
So "Hog-eye" and "hog's eye" were pretty much interchangeable.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: yrlancslad
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 04:37 PM

Hi barry, my version goes
                           A little hogeye is the thing for me
                           They say it's blind and cannot see.

Lighter, perhaps the villages known as hogeye were small compact places sunk in a hollow AND surrounded by lush trees or shrubbery
....and plenty of it....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Rowan
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 07:57 PM

A little hogeye is the thing for me
They say it's blind and cannot see.


Sounds like what we (in Oz) call the one-eyed trouser snake. But that wouldn't scan.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 12:22 AM

Hungerford, James. The Old Plantation, And What I Gathered There in an Autumn Month. New York: Harper & brothers, 1859, page 135.
    Those joyous old-time tunes, "Old Zip Coon," "The Hog-eye Man," and "Old Potomac" followed, and the cotillion was concluded.
Naval songs, a collection of original selected and traditional sea songs. New York: Wm. A. Pond & Co, 1870s, page 129:
    Oh, the hogeye men are all the go
    When they do come from Callao
    In a hogeye, railroad nigger in a hogeye,
    Row the boat ashore in a hogeye,
    All she wants's a hogeye man.
Waddell, Alfred M. Some Memories of My Life. Raleigh: Edwards & Broughton, 1908, page 29:
    ... seized the crank of the hurdy-gurdy violently and made the rafters ring with the tune of "The Hog-eye Man."
Lubbock, Basil. Deep Sea Warriors. New York: Dodd, Mead and Co, 1910, page 180:
    This is a great chanty, but also, alas! an unprintable one. However, it has a rare chorus, which we thundered out with the enthusiasm of a band of schoolboys.

      And a hog-eye*
      Rare ole nigger wid his hog-eye.
      Row de boat asho-er and a hog-eye — O!
      She wants de hog-eye man.

    We roared that chorus to the winds. We sent it whooping to the skies and ringing over the sparkling sea. We howled it into the great hollow of the mainsail, and banged it at the break of the poop, till it echoed back at us. It drew Dan from his pots and pans, and the crippled carpenter from his bench. It drew Arslan from his shady corner; and the Khalasi steward from his knives and forks. It set the very deck planks dancing under our feet.

    Ah! but we were feeling fine. We pirouetted round that capstan like so many ballet-girls. We breasted those bars with the rollicking swagger of buccaneers. Our eyes glowed with the old rover's spirit. Our flushed faces showed the colour of gold 'neath the sun. Our bare arms and breasts shone with the sweat of our cheery labour. The blood raced through our veins like wine. We were happy — as sailors ever are when the sun breaks through after a storm.

    *A hog-eye is an American river barge.
Hough, Emerson. The Way Out. New York: McKinlay & Mackenzie, 1918, page 263:
    "As fer fiddlin' tunes, thar's so many I kain't hardly recollect. Thar was 'The Flowers of Edingburg' — I don't know whar that come from, but they says it's old, an' like enough come over the mountings. An' thar was 'The Deer Walk' — I don't know whar that come from neither. Then thar was 'The Hog-Eyed Man,' an' 'Jawbone,' an' 'The Puncheon Floor,' an' 'Jones's Still House,' an' 'Sugar in the Bowl,' an' 'Suds Over the Fence,' an' 'Turkey in the Straw' — didn't ye never hear none of them tunes, Ma'am?"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

Thanks, Jim!

One couplet collected with the fiddle tune may well have been thought "unprintable" in 1910:

Sally in the garden, siftin' sand,
Jinny upstairs with the hog-eye man.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM

I never know quite which "hogeye" thread to add to, so I hope this hasn't been done already.

Anyway, an interesting connection to, I think, "Hogeye Man" is this song I stumbled on in a book AMERICAN NEGRO FOLK-SONGS (1928) by Newman Ivey White. He is giving versions of a song, "Little David, Play Yo Harp" (which I've not yet familiarized myself with -- is it well-known?).

He collected it in North Carolina, but I am unclear from the text (I guess I don't get his format) whether he is saying he heard it sung by "the mountain whites" or "Negroes" or both. He says that, "That this version is descended from an old secular song sung by slavesin the early eighteen-fifties is strongly indicated by Solomon Northup's song, given in the Appendix" (I cannot see the appendix on Google Preview).

//
Who's been here since I been gone?
A big black nigger wid a derby on

CHO:
Little David, play on yo' harp, Hallelu
Hallelu,Little David, play on yo' harp, Hallelu

Never see the like since I been born
The people keep comin' an' de train done gone

Away up yonder beyond the sun
A big black nigger wid a derby on
//

He cites some other, similar lyrics, from other places in NC and Alabama in the 1910s. The verses are the floating lyrics of many songs. However, I am fascinated by how the chorus sounds like it could fit to "Hogeye Man".   No melody is given, unfortunately.

Gibb


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:07 PM

argh, OK, just been listening to so reason versions of "Little David." Melody is not like "hogeye" at all, though FWIW the chorus of these recent versions has a different arrangement of the words. Perhaps it's just the floating verse lyrics that are in common with Hogeye.

Needless to say, recent versions of Little David don't use these verses! It is still interesting to see the "big buck" and "never seen the like" cliches in this religious song.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 03:38 PM

Another "Hog-Eye" tidbit, this from the Idaho Daily Avalanche (Silver City), Dec. 6, 1875:

"'Boise City is the biggest slouch of a town I ever got broke in,' said one of the sporting gentry the other day, as he threw himself into the barber's chair. 'Yes,' volunteered another, it is the       d-----dest hog's eye of a hole that I ever stacked a chip in, too.'"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:58 PM

Gibb Sahib, Appendix V has Three dance songs from "Twelve Years a Slave- The Narrative of Solomon Northrup" (1855); they are fragments. Here is the Hog Eye lyric, obviously based on the minstrel songs:

Who's been here since I've been gone?
Pretty Little Gal wid a josey on.

Chorus-
Hog Eye!
Old Hog Eye,
And Hosey, too!

Never see de like since I was born,
Here come a gal wid a josey on.

White's version A of "Little David" was sung by "mountain whites," B and C are not credited, D from Blacks, E uncredited, F from Blacks, G from Ed Lloyd (white). The old "secular song" mentioned here are the minstrel song(s) with verses about the josey and about "Hog Eye Man."

Many floating verses, may be found in both secular and religious songs.

"Little David, Play ..." was first noted in the revision by Moten, 1909, of Fenner's "Cabin and Plantation Songs." It is probably older, but is not in print before 1909. Very unlikely that it older than 1880s. See Traditional Ballad Index and my thread on "Little David..." where I posted a couple of versions.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 10:15 AM

Ah, thanks for that info, Q. Well, surprise!: it has been connected to "Hogeye." I am happy that my "instincts" were good, though of course that isn't to say there is necessarily anything really significant about the connection between the songs. Neither text (White or Northrup) has tunes. So it's unclear on what basis White said that his "Little David" was descended from "Hogeye". I'd like to think the phrasing of this version of the chorus (which is unique from many of the versions in the other thread Q mentions) was part of it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM

White's references to tunes are confusing. For his version A, He mentions the Fisk Quartette "Little David," which was on an old Victrola recording. The chorus is like the modern version (but much extended) and the verse I can't compare with anything I know. I think possibly the quartette made their own tune for the verse.

Listen to an excerpt from the Fisk Quartette here:
Little David

He collected the dance song in the appendix from a book which has no tunes. No idea what was used. One can only indicate the minstrel tunes as a possibility.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man
From: shipcmo
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 09:08 AM

refresh


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