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Subject: Lyr Add: HOGSEYE MAN From: Ted from Australia Date: 18 Apr 98 - 06:33 AM Here are the words to a chantey that I seem to have been singing forever. Can anyone help with the origins of THE HOGSEYE MAN? Who were they and what was their function? A cursory search of the net revealed zip. Regards all. HOGSEYE MAN The hogseye man is the man for me, As he comes in sailin' o'er the sea. CHORUS: To me hogseye! Row row navvies to me hogseye, Row the boat ashore to me hogseye, ah, She loves the hogseye man! Oh, Sally's in the garden pickin' up peas With her long yeller hair hangin' down her knees. And hand me down my walkin' cane. I'm going to see Miss Sally Jane. Oh, and who's been here since I been gone, But a big buck nigger with his sea-boots on. If he is here next time I pass, Take a running jump at his big fat leg. Oh, Sally in the parlor sittin' on me knee, Kissin' of the sailor who's home from sea. Sally's in the garden siftin' sand, With the hogseye man sittin' hand in hand. Sally in the kitchen, kneadin' duff, And the cheeks of her arse goin' chuff, chuff, chuff. Sally in the garden pickin' up peas, With a lot of little hogseyes round her knees. Oh, the hogseye man is the man for me, For he is blind and he cannot see. Oh, a hogseye ship and a hogseye crew, A hogseye mate and a skipper too. |
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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query From: barstow Date: 19 Apr 98 - 09:09 PM Stan Hugill's "Shanties from the Seve Seas" has a paragraph on The Hog-Eye Man , the gist of which is that it refers to canal men or "ditch -hogs", and was a "sarcastic phrase used by American deep-watermen to denote sailors of inland waterways..." He`also lists The Ox-Eye Man and The Hawks-Eye Man as alternative titles. Your verses are pretty much the same. Chris B. Siegel
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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query From: dick greenhaus Date: 19 Apr 98 - 11:06 PM Hi- The term is generally "Hogeye". It wouln't surprise me at allto find a set of words in the DT database. |
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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Apr 98 - 12:49 AM Or, maybe HOG-EYE MAN, which one can find by searching for "Sally Jane," of course. Search the database can be a challenge at times, but it's always a very worthwhile challenge. You never know what else you might find in your search. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query From: Ted from Australia Date: 20 Apr 98 - 05:13 AM Thanx all,sterling information as usual. Regards. Ted |
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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query From: Frank in the swamps Date: 20 Apr 98 - 05:16 AM The Hogeye man is also a metaphor for the "Muddliewark", I mean the "Johnson", I mean the "Tubesnake" I mean the "one eyed man who cannot see" I mean...... You know. Frank. |
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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query From: Martin Ryan. Date: 23 Apr 98 - 02:22 PM Following up on Barstow's "ditch-hogs": Whall in "Sea Songs & Shanties" (1910 1st Ed) says that the song "dates from 1849-50" during the California goldrush. He claims barges used on the canals for cargo were called "hog-eyes" and implies the song was sung by negroes manning them. Mind you, he also says "The derivation of the name (of the barges) is unknown to me." In a footnote, he mentions that most of the verses were unprintable. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query From: Barry Finn Date: 23 Apr 98 - 08:28 PM There was a tape of Belfast protest songs, sung by kids & a version of The Hog Eye Man was there, as The Bogside Man. I have nothing else that I can add on that, except it had to be the strangest version I'd ever heard. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query From: Bruce Date: 24 Apr 98 - 01:55 PM FYI, there is a music shop called Hogeye in Evanston, IL. Founded by Jan Burda, now run by Jim Craig. |
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Subject: RE: Hogseye Man : words and query From: Paul Stamler Date: 24 Apr 98 - 02:02 PM There are also inland versions, from river men; one chorus is "Railroad nigger with a hogeye". There's also a fiddle tune from the Ozark Mountains (southern Missouri, northern Arkansas) with the chorus: Row the boat ashore with a hogeye, hogeye Row the boat ashore with a hogeyed man. This song has floating verses; a couple include: I went down to New Orleans Sat me down to the table Got so full of that hogeyed meat The grease ran out my navel I would not marry a schoolteacher Tell you the reason why She blows her nose in old corn bread And calls it chicken pie Peace. Paul |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: GUEST,frank Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:42 PM It's also used in a few old blues as a euphemism for the female very naughty bits as opposed to the moderately naughty bits |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: GUEST,JimP Date: 29 Dec 07 - 01:43 AM Er, well, yes; the "man in the boat" -- the boatman, aka hogeye man. Always seemed pretty clear to me. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: GUEST,Sweeds Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:31 PM I can't find the actual dates to the Hog-Eye Man shanty anywhere. All I could find is dates that range from 1840's to the 50's. Does anyone know the actual date of this song? Sweeds |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Charley Noble Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:43 PM It's extremely rare to be able to track any sea shanty back before the late 1840's, unless it was adapted from a broadside, minstrel, or music hall song. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: toadfrog Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:59 PM Fairly common phrase in old-timey music. One of the more acceptable versions: "Here am I, sittin' on a log, finger on the trigger and my eye on the hog (got the old hog-eye, heh heh)." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: EBarnacle Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:15 PM Paul, your schoolteacher verse can also be found in Old Joe Clark as: Nevr marry an old widow, I'll tell you the reason why-- She blows her nose in old corn bread And calls it chicken pie. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Gurney Date: 25 Mar 08 - 01:18 AM Just an observation: Nearly all versions that I've heard from English, Aussie, and Kiwi singers are 'Hogs-eye.' And they all have the Punching Duff line in them..... And it is always arse..... The folk process. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: GUEST,Poppagnome Date: 22 May 08 - 10:42 AM Had an old sea-dog of an uncle long gone to DV's Locker who was given to singing this song and the vulgarity of the lyrics was proportional to the amount of grog he'd imbibed but he always used to the words "au'd zeaman" ( sung zay-mon )local adaptation pr'aps! the meaning was clear via lewed gestures when the women folk were off making tea - or getting the rolling pin! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 22 May 08 - 02:14 PM And what were those lyrics, Poppagnome? After he'd imbibed, that is. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: vectis Date: 22 May 08 - 08:35 PM I got it that the Hogseye man was from the Tennessee (how in heck do you spell that?) River and he was looked down on because he never went to sea. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: GUEST Date: 23 May 08 - 10:51 AM I found the lyric below by googling. We used to sing it as a round at school. We definitely had "san francisco" in the lyric and "Navvy" was substituted with "Feller" Probably 'cos at the time "Navvy" was derogative term used for Irish immigrant workmen and even in those distant un-pc '60s they didn't want to offend. Maybe even railroad feller was the original... And a hog-eye Railroad navvy with his hog-eye Row ashore, and a hog-eye oh She wants the hog-eye man Oh go fetch me down my riding cane For I'm goin' to see my darlin' Jane Oh the hog-eye men are all the go When they come down to San Francisco Now it's, Who's been here since I've been gone A railroad navvy with his sea-boots on Oh Sally in the garden picking peas Her golden hair hanging down to her knees Oh Sally in the garden shelling peas With a young hog-eye sittin' on her knees Oh a hog-eye ship and a hog-eye crew A hog-eye mate and skipper too (as sung by Ian Campbell) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Santa Date: 23 May 08 - 01:53 PM Always been Hog-eye from any singer I've heard in England. As they probably got it from Stan Hugill that fits, but it does make Gurney's comment surprising. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: GUEST,jones Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:34 AM there was a band in east anglia in the 90's called hogseye played blues. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Dead Horse Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM Guest above wrote..."We definitely had "san francisco" in the lyric and "Navvy" was substituted with "Feller" Probably 'cos at the time "Navvy" was derogative term used for Irish immigrant workmen and even in those distant un-pc '60s they didn't want to offend. Maybe even railroad feller was the original..." Sorry, "Railroad nigger with his hogseye" is the original, so you can see why the PC brigade changed it. I would rather sing the original and be damned, than sing stuff cobbled up by the chicken hearted. But if I thought that my audience may be offended, I would either not sing it at all, or would explain that those were the words sung by the singers of the time, and that they were mostly "free men of colour" too. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: curmudgeon Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:47 PM One should hesitate before claiming a particular version to be the "original." The earliest printed version from Whall gives the line as: "Railroad nigger with his sea boots on" Terry , who was most adamant that the title was "Hogseye Man" offers: "Some big buck nigger with his sea boots on." and an alternative line, "You Yankee Jack wid de sea boots on." Colcord offers "Some big buck nigger wid his sea boots on." Abd finally, from Harlow, "Railroad nigga with his sea boots on." I rarely do this song for fear of unconciously singing the wrong lines in the wrong place. This was not a concern for Jack as racial stereotypes and epithets were freely and good naturedly exchanged among all ethnic groups - Tom |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: yrlancslad Date: 20 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM According to Rogers "Profanisaurus Rex" the hogs eye is that male orifice through which urine and sperm erupt, I've also heard it refer to female genitalia because of the lush eye lashes possesed by most pigs (hogs)but I can't give you references for that other than Lancashire coal mines circa 1956. I can see sailors on inland waterways being called "Ditch-hogs" (Terry) but where does the hogs eye come in? Also a careful reading of Hugill indicates that he doesn't know wether the meaning was obscene or not, he only points out that Terrys' explanation is not obscene, while he admits that the verses were indeed indecent.I think it unlikely that the verses should be obscene and the chorus not. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Barry Finn Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:21 AM "Round the Corner Sally" The hogeye man's the thing for me They say he's blind & cannot see" can't remember where I got this verse from, sorry Barry |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Lighter Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM It would be interesting to know exactly how "hogeye" barges got their name. The Oxford English Dictionary does not include the word and references are very rare. Whall(1910)is the earliest and best authority that the "San Francisco barge" meaning even existed. There's an American fiddle tune from before the Civil War called "Hogeye" or "The Hogeye Man," but without any melodic similarity to the shanty, as far as I can hear. I can't prove it, but the original "hog-eye" man may well have been blind, or at least nearsighted enough to squint all the time. (Hogs have tiny eyes.) The Menasha (Wisconsin) Advocate of Jan. 18, 1855, p.2, refers to a "queer-looking, long-legged, short-bodied, white-hair, hog eye, funny sort of" feller. At least my guess is that his eye or eyes resembled those of a hog. Wikipedia refers to eight tiny locations in the U.S.once known as "Hog-Eye," seven of them in the adjoining states of Missouri, Texas, and Arkansas. Some have changed their names. One chose "Haggai" as its "new" name. Perhaps they got their designation from being "a small compact place sunk in a hollow," as Wikipedia asserts. It also asserts that the "Hog-Eye" in Vernon Co., Missouri, was "renamed Nevada in 1855." Maybe so, but the N.Y. Times referred to it as "Hog's Eye" on the front page of its issue of Oct. 17, 1861. So "Hog-eye" and "hog's eye" were pretty much interchangeable. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: yrlancslad Date: 21 Aug 08 - 04:37 PM Hi barry, my version goes A little hogeye is the thing for me They say it's blind and cannot see. Lighter, perhaps the villages known as hogeye were small compact places sunk in a hollow AND surrounded by lush trees or shrubbery ....and plenty of it.... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Rowan Date: 21 Aug 08 - 07:57 PM A little hogeye is the thing for me They say it's blind and cannot see. Sounds like what we (in Oz) call the one-eyed trouser snake. But that wouldn't scan. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Jim Dixon Date: 23 Aug 08 - 12:22 AM Hungerford, James. The Old Plantation, And What I Gathered There in an Autumn Month. New York: Harper & brothers, 1859, page 135.
When they do come from Callao In a hogeye, railroad nigger in a hogeye, Row the boat ashore in a hogeye, All she wants's a hogeye man.
And a hog-eye* Rare ole nigger wid his hog-eye. Row de boat asho-er and a hog-eye — O! She wants de hog-eye man. We roared that chorus to the winds. We sent it whooping to the skies and ringing over the sparkling sea. We howled it into the great hollow of the mainsail, and banged it at the break of the poop, till it echoed back at us. It drew Dan from his pots and pans, and the crippled carpenter from his bench. It drew Arslan from his shady corner; and the Khalasi steward from his knives and forks. It set the very deck planks dancing under our feet. Ah! but we were feeling fine. We pirouetted round that capstan like so many ballet-girls. We breasted those bars with the rollicking swagger of buccaneers. Our eyes glowed with the old rover's spirit. Our flushed faces showed the colour of gold 'neath the sun. Our bare arms and breasts shone with the sweat of our cheery labour. The blood raced through our veins like wine. We were happy — as sailors ever are when the sun breaks through after a storm. *A hog-eye is an American river barge.
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Lighter Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM Thanks, Jim! One couplet collected with the fiddle tune may well have been thought "unprintable" in 1910: Sally in the garden, siftin' sand, Jinny upstairs with the hog-eye man. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Gibb Sahib Date: 22 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM I never know quite which "hogeye" thread to add to, so I hope this hasn't been done already. Anyway, an interesting connection to, I think, "Hogeye Man" is this song I stumbled on in a book AMERICAN NEGRO FOLK-SONGS (1928) by Newman Ivey White. He is giving versions of a song, "Little David, Play Yo Harp" (which I've not yet familiarized myself with -- is it well-known?). He collected it in North Carolina, but I am unclear from the text (I guess I don't get his format) whether he is saying he heard it sung by "the mountain whites" or "Negroes" or both. He says that, "That this version is descended from an old secular song sung by slavesin the early eighteen-fifties is strongly indicated by Solomon Northup's song, given in the Appendix" (I cannot see the appendix on Google Preview). // Who's been here since I been gone? A big black nigger wid a derby on CHO: Little David, play on yo' harp, Hallelu Hallelu,Little David, play on yo' harp, Hallelu Never see the like since I been born The people keep comin' an' de train done gone Away up yonder beyond the sun A big black nigger wid a derby on // He cites some other, similar lyrics, from other places in NC and Alabama in the 1910s. The verses are the floating lyrics of many songs. However, I am fascinated by how the chorus sounds like it could fit to "Hogeye Man". No melody is given, unfortunately. Gibb |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Gibb Sahib Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:07 PM argh, OK, just been listening to so reason versions of "Little David." Melody is not like "hogeye" at all, though FWIW the chorus of these recent versions has a different arrangement of the words. Perhaps it's just the floating verse lyrics that are in common with Hogeye. Needless to say, recent versions of Little David don't use these verses! It is still interesting to see the "big buck" and "never seen the like" cliches in this religious song. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Lighter Date: 22 Jul 09 - 03:38 PM Another "Hog-Eye" tidbit, this from the Idaho Daily Avalanche (Silver City), Dec. 6, 1875: "'Boise City is the biggest slouch of a town I ever got broke in,' said one of the sporting gentry the other day, as he threw himself into the barber's chair. 'Yes,' volunteered another, it is the d-----dest hog's eye of a hole that I ever stacked a chip in, too.'" |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:58 PM Gibb Sahib, Appendix V has Three dance songs from "Twelve Years a Slave- The Narrative of Solomon Northrup" (1855); they are fragments. Here is the Hog Eye lyric, obviously based on the minstrel songs: Who's been here since I've been gone? Pretty Little Gal wid a josey on. Chorus- Hog Eye! Old Hog Eye, And Hosey, too! Never see de like since I was born, Here come a gal wid a josey on. White's version A of "Little David" was sung by "mountain whites," B and C are not credited, D from Blacks, E uncredited, F from Blacks, G from Ed Lloyd (white). The old "secular song" mentioned here are the minstrel song(s) with verses about the josey and about "Hog Eye Man." Many floating verses, may be found in both secular and religious songs. "Little David, Play ..." was first noted in the revision by Moten, 1909, of Fenner's "Cabin and Plantation Songs." It is probably older, but is not in print before 1909. Very unlikely that it older than 1880s. See Traditional Ballad Index and my thread on "Little David..." where I posted a couple of versions. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Gibb Sahib Date: 23 Jul 09 - 10:15 AM Ah, thanks for that info, Q. Well, surprise!: it has been connected to "Hogeye." I am happy that my "instincts" were good, though of course that isn't to say there is necessarily anything really significant about the connection between the songs. Neither text (White or Northrup) has tunes. So it's unclear on what basis White said that his "Little David" was descended from "Hogeye". I'd like to think the phrasing of this version of the chorus (which is unique from many of the versions in the other thread Q mentions) was part of it. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM White's references to tunes are confusing. For his version A, He mentions the Fisk Quartette "Little David," which was on an old Victrola recording. The chorus is like the modern version (but much extended) and the verse I can't compare with anything I know. I think possibly the quartette made their own tune for the verse. Listen to an excerpt from the Fisk Quartette here: Little David He collected the dance song in the appendix from a book which has no tunes. No idea what was used. One can only indicate the minstrel tunes as a possibility. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hogseye Man From: shipcmo Date: 16 Nov 10 - 09:08 AM refresh |
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