 sj |
||
|
||
Rape
|
|
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Peg Date: 13 May 02 - 11:29 AM well I typed out a response but it got erased! Larry, you need to read my post more carefully, as you are twisting my words. I never said politics have no place in music. And just because I find the particular style of these lyrics ineffective, doesn't mean I disapprove of the message. (In fact I have said the opposite). It certainly doesn't mean I need a lecture on the atrocities of the world, or on folk music. To assume I must not know or care enough about the rape of Bangldeshi girls simply because I don't praise these lyrics is a bit essentialist. I like folk music fine. I don't mind songs about political issues and in fact like them a lot. The lyrics of Bob Dylan, Peggy Seeger, Geoff Bartley, Billy Bragg, Michelle Shocked, John Gorka, just to name a few, to me are artful and thoughtful and subtle. This is the type of lyric I prefer. Some people seem to like lyrics that are more heavy-handed. It's just a matter of personal preference. But I find songs more moving and affecting when I have to engage my own brain and heart to interpret the message, rather than have it spelled out blatantly. If your aim is to spread awareness about this issue, then my personal opinion about the form or style of these lyrics shouldn't really matter, should it?
|
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie Date: 13 May 02 - 11:06 AM Larry "Don't talk to me about the meaning of life, Don't sing your songs, that cut like a knife, I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear it at all" Eric Bogle Unfortunately it is a common reaction, and maybe a natural one. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 10:38 AM Hi Sharon: As far as I know from my work, the rapists in Bangladesh are Moslem, and there is not a practice among the Hindhu populaiton there of "honor killing". The open question posed though, is where are the men of the Hindu community who would bring honor to this by loving the victem enough to share the pain in the aftermath of rape. That is the question posed in the song, after the clear condemnation of 1. the fundimentalist government which condones rape of minorities as a tool of forced migration, 2. condemnation of the rapist being tolerated among his people (moslems) 3. condemnaiton of the world which expresses the notion, don't tell me about this, I don't want to deel with it - it is too far away for me to care. Thanks for the caring comments, Larry |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: SharonA Date: 13 May 02 - 10:11 AM Peg sez, "I don't agree that rape is only about power and not about sex." My impression is that rape is more about power than sex because it's sex by force – sex against the will of one of the participants. But I agree with Peg that rape isn't only about power. It's also about the sexual gratification of the one(s) doing the overpowering. As Larry says, "the sexual objectification aspect adds an aspect of harm to the crime which goes beyond the harm of other assaults, in that it robs a part of [human] sexual identity and replaces it with a sexualized objectified identity." I'm curious: in those cultures where "honor killing" is practiced, are raped (sodomized) boys also killed? I would suspect not, if the aim of "honor killing" is to subjugate women, not victims of rape. To answer the question Larry posed at the end of his song, the rapist in the Bangladeshi Hindu culture does not hide his face because his culture tells him he doesn't have to. I'm not sure how one convinces people from other cultures that human rights as we interpret them are universal rights (without being viewed by those other cultures as infidels). Certainly it will take time... after all, it has taken several centuries for us to acknowledge that women have rights (and that people of all races have rights), and even now we meet resistance to those concepts within our own culture. We just have to be resolved to fighting that battle forever, and we have to keep speaking out and singing out until we're heard. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 10:07 AM The fact is that a fundimentalist coup overthrough the socialist government of Bangladesh and has been allowing attrosities to be caried out in a genocidal program. As to not feeling that propaganda or politics belongs in music, than, perhaps folk music is not your cup of tea. Folk music has been about the people's concerns for ever, that is what it is... what more can I say? Leave politics to the news services, and guess whose point of view will be put forward, certainly not the marginalised the unempowered, the folk. Cheers Larry |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Peg Date: 13 May 02 - 09:45 AM I certainly do not dispute the facts here and obviously political activism is meant to help spread awareness of atrocities. My comments were not in any way denying the tragedy of this situation (in fact I mentioned it myself). But I have never thought song-writing should be a platform for propaganda of any kind (I am not calling this song propaganda!), and similarly I think that real obvious, heavy-handed lyrics are not artful, but hard to listen to. I think songs can portray anger, outrage and horror; but there is a way to do it so that listeners don't feel lectured to. Political song lyrics that are most effective, in my opinion, function in terms of imagery and metaphor and narrative...the minute I hear the word "fundamentalism" in a song (unless it is meant humorously) I am very turned off. I admire your aim in writing this song; I just find it unsubtle, as I said. Plenty of people in this thread love your song, though...my opinion is in the minority, at least of those who chose to post their opinions publicly.
|
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 05:36 AM Hi Genie: I have to agree with you about violence. I had occation to pose a question to Judge Posner, the founder of the Chicago School, Ecconomic Theory of Law, when he proposed, in a rather idiodic book, that rape was a crime of sexual market place... that his reflection that the instance of rape in Japan proves we who feel rape is a crime of violence are wrong. He stated that Japan has a mesogenist culture and a low instance of rape, proving that it is a crime of sexual market place, as he called it. I pointed out that there are cultural differences which create a different kind of alianation in Japan, so violent crime in general was less common than in other industrial societies, yet one can find a corelation between the instance of violent crime and rape, and in the communities which had more violent crime in Japan, you have more rape. This is not to be arguementative about the issue, and not to desexualize the crime, I understand Peg to mean that the sexual objectification aspect adds an aspect of harm to the crime which goes beyond the harm of other assaults, in that it robs a part of sexual identity and replaces it with a sexualized objectified identity. As to the range of ages of those harmed in Bangladesh, I am not surprised, the more I work on this issue, the worse it turns out to be, the more I don't understand how the State Department can say this is not an instance of genocide, but sporatic and unpolitically connected as they clame in the country reports. Please demand of your governments involvement in helping the people of Bandladesh. They are far away, but they are humans like you. Larry |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Genie Date: 12 May 02 - 09:43 PM InOBU, Try 2 to at least 90 [unfortunately]. Peg, SOME rapes [e.g., date rape] may be partially sexually motivated, but in many cases (e.g., the rape of the frail elderly or the rape of the enemy male's women [read: property] in wartime, and rape via objects [the toilet plunger that cops used on Abner Luima], etc.), it's hard to see how sex is a major motive, if it is a motive at all. Seems to me we've got a vicious cycle. The more a society regards females as chattel with chastity their cardinal value (hence goods to be rendered worthless if they are sexually violated), the more motive there is for a male to violate his enemy's women sexually--in addition to or instead of just maiming or killing them--to really 'stick it' to that male enemy. Genie |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 12 May 02 - 06:39 PM Peg: Thousands of women from the age of 8 to 80 are being raped in Bangladesh. Respectfuly... is this a time to be any more subtle than I have been? In the face of this obsenity I think we should be crying bloody murder to the world that is ignoring this crime. Larry |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 May 02 - 05:40 PM So the challenging approach really belongs in situations where the listener might be expected to be a bit undecided, or even inclined to be on the other side?
|
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Peg Date: 12 May 02 - 05:04 PM McGrath; I think that is what I mean by manipulative; because the lyrics are so emotionally straightforward as you say, it does seem to be saying one must agree with this sentiment, and since it is such a tragic story, how can one refute it? But I tend to prefer songs that make me think a bit more, and cause me to be more reflective...also that say things perhaps more poetically or abstractly. Again, just a personal preference. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 May 02 - 03:53 PM "unsubtle and manipulative" - I'd say you've got to be pretty subtle to be effectvely manipulative.
There's always a dilemma being two ways of telling a story. One is just presenting the facts, and leaving it to the listener/reader to make up their own minds, and the other is making a direct statement and implicitly challenging the listener to agree.
I think putting the last verse at the end instead at the start might be worth trying with this song, so that it sums up the situation after we've been taken through it. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: CapriUni Date: 12 May 02 - 01:26 PM To be fair to GUEST, I think some may have misread her/his post. I don't think s/he was saying that Paganism has any particularly strong link to rape. . . . . . But s/he is accusing other posters here of saying that Christianity, Islam, and Judiasm of having a stronger link to rape than Paganism... and by her/his HTML language (the cyber version of body language), I'd say that the post above was meant as flamebait. Let me charge up my fire extinguisher and try to give a balanced response to the issue, and not the post (kinda hard to do when the subject combines the three topics to avoid if you do not want a fight: Sex, religion, and politics -- but I'll give it my best shot). 1) No doubt, the ancient Pagans did commit rape, especially during wartime. But the ancient Pagans are no more. 2) No doubt, there are individual Neo-Pagans out there who are rapists, especially those who were drawn to the religion(s) for their general attitude of "sex is okay". But as many Neo-Pagan religions consider the feminine principle as at least equally divine as the male, the subjagation of women is not religiously sanctioned. 3) It is true that not all Jews, Christians, and Muslims consider the subjagation of women to be religiously sanctioned. But many of the self-proclaimed "Fundamentalists" do.* And many Islamic nations are theocracies, where the Fundalmentalist clerics are in charge of crafting and enforcing the laws that affect the fate of their women citizens. *4) I suspect that all "Fundamentalist" rerligions, of whatever stripe, are vulnerable to pigeon-holing people into rigid gender and life roles because of their emphasis on keeping to ancient traditions and rules at all cost. This may happen with some Neo-Pagan religions in the future, but as we've only been around for about 2 generations, this movement hasn't yet developed. In short, religion is only one factor among many that contributes to a person's and culture's attitude toward rape. And without taking all the factors into account, is a non sequitor. There! Was that pretty much balanced? |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: MAG Date: 12 May 02 - 11:30 AM Rape attitudes -- and laws -- blame the victim because they are based on property laws. The husband or father has damaged property. Yes, it's dreck, but there it is. Rooting out these attitudes and bringing women into full equality is the first step. I'm afraid that rape really is about power and control; this is a particular psychopathy where these ones get off on causing terror. .they feed their own interior black holes by creating them in others. The link to male aggression is pretty clear. The better we understand our species with all our wrinkles, our hard-wiring, the better we can address this shite. Thanks for the song, Larry. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: 53 Date: 12 May 02 - 10:36 AM Very good poem. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Peg Date: 12 May 02 - 09:16 AM I don't agree that rape is only about power and not about sex. If that were true, why would forcible sexual intercourse or other sexual acts be a part of it? Why would not the attackers merely beat up the woman instead of abuse her sexually, if it were only about "power?" It seems to me that rape is, indeed, about sex. Which makes it even more horrible if you ask me. I find the song's lyrics a bit unsubtle and manipulative for my tastes (just my personal taste in songs, doesn't mean it's a bad song), but certainly the topic is an important one to be communicated.
|
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: alanabit Date: 12 May 02 - 06:52 AM Damned right that paganism has nothing to do with rape. Some of the Celtic cultures gave equal rights to women and spurned capital punishment. Backward eh? Pagan cultures have also embraced pacifism. The humanitarianism or otherwise of a society has nothing to do with its age. Larry is asking an important question here though. Why is there this hideous attitude that the victim is shamed by the crime? We know that Bille Holliday was sent to reform school for being a rape victim. In the Shakespeare play, Titus Andronicus kills his daughter Lavinia because he feels she has been dishonoured by rape.(Don't we really feel for his hurt pride...) The attitude has emerged in cultures old and new. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 12 May 02 - 06:28 AM The subject of "honor killings" has come into the discussion, which is good, one reason I leave open quesitons in most of my songs about human rights, is to get people thinking, for example about the obligation of the Bangladeshi minority community to embrase the female victems of the crimes directed at both men and women in their nation. I must say, however, I have been asking other lawyers, and have not yet heard that the Bangladeshi Hindus have committed honor killings in response to rape by Moslem gangs, rather honor killing in Bangladesh apears, to my initial inquiries (among non-Bangladeshis) to be done by the same fundamentalist communities committing the crimes of rape. I will keep you all posted...
As to our guest... I have a wee song to the tune of Dowey Dens of Yarrow, dedicated to all the anonymous trolls on Mudcat... Cheers Larry |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Cappuccino Date: 12 May 02 - 03:53 AM Quite right, Sorcha. In both of your posts. Permit me to ally myself with your opinions. - ian B
|
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Sorcha Date: 12 May 02 - 12:49 AM O for pity's sake. Just shut up, GUEST. You have no idea what you are talking about. Idiots, everywhere you go, idiots. Paganism has not a damned thing to do with rape. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: GUEST Date: 12 May 02 - 12:26 AM How many - of the exact same people posting above have implied in previous threads?????Let us return to the pagan rituals of the primitives for they understood the truth and were closer to the true purity of mother-nature than modern man!
|
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Sorcha Date: 11 May 02 - 11:21 PM It is appalling to me that this shit still happens------everywhere. Not just in "other" countries, but in yours too. Whatever country you live in. Rape has never been about SEX, it has always been about POWER.
Unfortunately, castration or chemical castration won't stop it---if the animal doesn't have a penis to rape with he will find something else---lots worse.
Whatever it takes to stop it------maybe just this one is worth that. Several years ago I read a book (Not Without My Daughter/s?) that detailed the trials and troubles of an American woman who married an Iranian man. Horrible stuff. Honor killings for speaking to American men, major clitorectomies............ Thank you for the song, Larry. Sing it as often as possible. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Hrothgar Date: 11 May 02 - 11:18 PM Are women who are "dishonoured" killed by their menfolk because it's easier and safer than going after the bloke who did it? The bloke has, of course, already indicated that he is inclined towards violence. Or am I being too cynical again? |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Troll Date: 11 May 02 - 11:12 PM Larry, good thread. Better song. I'm glad that you can write such songs. It's up to the rest of us to sing them so please include a midi or the tune if you can. troll |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: pict Date: 11 May 02 - 11:11 PM It's a horrendous crime and as a father of 4 daughters one that I worry about I think that the sentencing for rape is in general far too lenient when you consider the damage that it causes chemical castration on top of stiff custodial sentences suddenly becomes a very attractive option. As for the subject of honour killings it really does raise the question of whether or not we should require as a prerequisite of immigration into western countries that immigrants from places that have these cultural practices renounce their previous culture and have compulsory education in the culture,language and history of the country they wish to live in,in other words compulsory integration.It sounds harsh and intolerant but how else can we stamp these practices out or show our rejection of such practices should we place sanctions on the countries that tolerate these practices? Here in Denmark there have been gang rapes of Danish women by Muslim men(last year the Danish police statistics say that 65% of all rapes in Denmark were committed by Muslim immigrants)plus honour killings and declitorisation and defibulation these practices have to be eradicated. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 11 May 02 - 10:35 PM Well, I don't know how... instance by instance, I think we must ask our governments to link their aid to Bangladesh to human rights, and increase aid where there are minorities included in the projects. Cheers and thanks, Larry |
|
Subject: RE: (new song) Rape From: CapriUni Date: 11 May 02 - 10:14 PM Great song, Lorcan! It's a horror that boggles the mind. I think the statistic is that something like 52% of the world's population is female (often because the males get into killing each other), and yet, we're still treated like a "minority". So how do we break the cycle? Oh, and at first, I thought this was a trollbait thread, so I almost didn't open it -- hence the addition to the thread title. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 11 May 02 - 08:17 PM Áine! As I was just saying to Lonsome EJ - my mudcat pals keep me going in this fustrating world. I hope to be starting work on a new CD soon, I am working to get one of our past band members Mary Shannon to record with a couple of folks, all of whom are good and have not recorded yet... I'm not in great voice tonight, have a raging sore throat... but call in a few days and I will sing the song for ya... Cheers Larry |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Áine Date: 11 May 02 - 07:41 PM A shem, what a beautiful song to describe such horrific events. I wish we could have had more time the other night for you to tell me more about your dealings with the Bangladesh community. I'll call again soon, when you let me know what a convenient time would be for you. I do hope that the next Sorcha Dorcha CD (or perhaps a solo CD by yourself) will contain this song. You honor me by giving me your friendship and being my brother. Le grá, Áine |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: kendall Date: 11 May 02 - 05:27 PM I just had an interesting talk with a Muslim. Basically, we agreed that the nuts are spread all over the world, and we both resent being told what God wants us to do, especially being told to "kill infidels" |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 11 May 02 - 04:28 PM Thanks Kat... and Joe, it is always good of you to correct our errors, thanks again mate, Cheers Larry PS.... Please call your congressfolks and ask them to link forign aid to human rights oversite in Bangladesh. ... |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: katlaughing Date: 11 May 02 - 03:55 PM May your gods bless you, Lorcan, for being so aware, writing about it, and bringing it to the attention of others. An important and meaningful song. Thank you. Thanks, Alice, for the link. kat |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Ebbie Date: 11 May 02 - 01:32 PM I grew up in a very fundamentalistic, male-superior {read "more valuable"}family. The mindset behind the 'honor killings', the notion that women are secondary beings kept me in a rage for 20 years. The appalling stupidity of humankind... Thanks, InObu. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Genie Date: 11 May 02 - 11:49 AM Which atrocity against women is worse--rape or the societal attitude that a raped woman is thereby worthless? Genie P.S., Good song, InOBU. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: GUEST,MAG at work Date: 11 May 02 - 11:39 AM Susan Brownmiller's book, *Against Our Will,* will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about political rape. It will work as a tool to destroy communities as long as communities abandon the victim-survivors. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 11 May 02 - 11:20 AM Damn... I did it again, tears of my nation - singlular... Have a bad head cold, makes my usual illiteracy even worse! Larry |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 11 May 02 - 11:19 AM Correction and a typo.... please drop people, for the scan of the verse, The tears of my nations, a waterwheel could turn... also last verse second to last line, "how can it BE our dishonor..." Thanks for the kind comments, Larry |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Celtic Soul Date: 11 May 02 - 11:17 AM Until women are viewed as something other than a prize or chattel, this sort of thing will continue to occur. It is more pervasive and insidious than many think. There are plenty of examples of such even in the "modern world". Thanks for caring, InOBU, and thanks for putting it to music. Music is a powerful tool. |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: kendall Date: 11 May 02 - 11:08 AM There wAS a time in Italy when a suitor would rape the girl of his choice knowing that no other man would want her. Man. God's most noble creation, BOLLOX! |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: InOBU Date: 11 May 02 - 11:03 AM Alice: Thanks for the link... I have not yet heard of "honor killings" among Bangaladeshi Hindus in the aftermath of "political" rape - but if you find sites spesific to that - please do send them to me. The report on the web page you link speaks in general of Bangladesh, and as the perpitrator community, at the moment is fundimentalist Moslem, the reference may be to "honor killing" among that group. I will put the question to the folks I am working with in the Hindu - Budhist and Christian community as well. There is a question I rase in the song... one that I leave up to the listener to answer, which is why cannot the community also take care enough of the victem, but, for a community who has gone through such horrible abuse, murder and uprooting with has caused the Hindu population to go from 40 to 9 per cent of the Bangladeshi population ... I put the emphasis on the perpatrator community, but the last verse really does ask the quesiton, why is the shame only the victems... Thanks again, Larry |
|
Subject: RE: Rape From: Alice Date: 11 May 02 - 10:30 AM This reminds me of the attack on the girls school dorm in Africa by the male students who later said, "We didn't mean to kill them, we were only going to rape them."
There are many babies and young girls with AIDS now in Africa after being raped in the belief that sex with a virgin cures AIDS, and the younger the virgin, the stronger the cure.
Aside from never being married, some women are killed by their own families for having been raped. |
|
Subject: Rape From: InOBU Date: 11 May 02 - 09:44 AM While working with the Bangaladeshi minority communities thi past several weeks, I was confronted by a photo of a young Hindu girl, gang raped - one of thousands, for whom rape was a weapon of war to drive her from her land. The caption of the photo was "Who will marry me" This song came to me this morning, and I call it the same, Who will marry me
|
| Share Thread: |
