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Help: Which Regiment(s)

DigiTrad:
THE SOLDIER'S FAREWELL (White Cockade II)
THE WHITE COCKADE (King Charles)
WHITE COCKADE (BURNS)
WHITE COCKADE (THEY ADVANCED ME)


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GUEST,taff 30 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM
sapper82 30 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Keith A o Hertford 30 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM
HuwG 30 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,taff 01 May 05 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Jones Falls 17 May 05 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,beachie@bigpond.net.au 16 May 06 - 05:58 AM
GUEST 29 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM
GUEST 19 Apr 13 - 03:59 PM
Dead Horse 19 Apr 13 - 10:15 PM
GUEST 21 Apr 13 - 01:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,taff
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM

thanks for your help Walus, but dose any body know how the royal came in front of the names of ALL units ? going back in history i think armies were private up intill oliver cronwell conbined them all ? dose that come into the issue ?
   thanks again for your help.
                            taff


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM

There is one regiment with two royals in it's name, "The Royal Monmouthshire Royal Engineer Militia"


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM

Tafrolands, I have heard that the Paras were denied the Royal prefix because of a mutiny during WW2. Anyone else hear that?
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

156 bn, the Parachute Regiment, were formed in India from volunteers from other British units. They became notorious for brawls and bad behaviour, mainly resulting from boredom and lack of parachute training.

Rather than disband the unit, the authorities sent it back to Britain. (Many of its soldiers had already served more than three years in India, and would have had to be sent home anyway.) It formed part of 4th Para brigade, and was destroyed at Arnhem.

However, I doubt whether this single episode would bring shame on the entire regiment. (In any case 156 bn more than redeemed themselves by their conduct and sacrifice at Arnhem).

****

For infantry and cavalry units, the "Royal" prefix to the title was (and is) usually granted as a favour, for long and meritorious service. The suggestion might be made by the monarch, but the only paperwork would be an instruction from the Army Council. Any warrant or other paper from the monarch would be only the gilding on the deed. The Royal Artillery (and Royal Horse Artillery) on the other hand, were established late in the seventeenth century or early in the eighteenth century by Royal Warrant.

For many years the RA and RHA were administered not by the War Office, but by the Ordnance Board. This complicated system exasperated Wellington and other generals in the field. It was even worse in the previous century, as there had been a separate Corps of Artillery Drivers, administered separately from the gunners.

As I think I mentioned somewhere in this thread, British artillery officers during the Napoleonic wars were supposedly more serious and professional than their infantry and cavalry counterparts. However the separate administration of the artillery until 1830 (I think; I'll have to check the correct date) kept artillery officers out of field commands until 1842 when Sir George Pollock relieved Jalalabad and recaptured Kabul.

(A RA Officer named Phillips commanded the "Convention Army", i.e. Burgoyne's army which had surrendered at Saratoga, and languished in Boston until the War of Independence ended. However, this is hardly a field command, and Phillips was soon exchanged for captured American officers.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,taff
Date: 01 May 05 - 04:13 AM

thanks for all your help


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Jones Falls
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:12 PM

Many thanks to all of you.

I've been cobbling together a Town Crier's costume to serve the Township of Rideau Lakes in Leeds & Grenville County, Ontario, Canada (about 75 miles north of Syracuse New York.

Town Crier's usually kit themselves up in a muddle of mixed uniforms, often ending up with a mix of American-British-French. Taking note that my township was settled first by Loyalists (Tories) from the American Revolution, then by the Scots and Irish, who were involved with the Royal Engineers and the Corps of Royal Sappers & Miners building the Rideau Canal, I have used the Scots/Irish as my primary blend.

I had a kilt tailored last year. Since then I've bought a feather (Highland) bonnet (uncomfortable monster, it is!), and paraphenalia including spats, skien dhub, hair sporran, sealskin sporran, tweed cutaway jacket, checked hose-tops, wide belt, long dirk, glegarry and white cross-belts. Now I am having a red cape and a neck-high waistcoat tailored The cape will have some gold braid, loops on the collar, which will be a shawl collar under which is a second collar in green. The fabric used is doeskin, and it will be tailored, in Kingston, by a chap who fashions military mess kits and uniforms for Canada's Grenadier Guards.

Thinking of rejecting the tall feather bonnet, I saw that statues of Lieut-Col John By R.E. (The fellow who engineered the canal) show him wearing a bicorn. I've written to the Speaker of Canada's House of Parliament asking him to pass along any hand-me-downs. He wears one every day when he opens parliament. His Sergeant at Arms wears a tri-corn. I just wrote last week, I'm still waiting.

Meanwhile I have ordered a tri-corn hat from an outfit called Jas. Townsend & Son, in Indiana. They asked me to tell them what kind of cockade I wanted. Thanks to your string on cockades and 'stuff' (Yea, verily, there was much 'stuff') I was ably to declare, quite firmly, "Black, please."
OH, it will be a muddle, but it certainly will do the trick!
Cheers! & OYEZ! OYEZ! OYEZ!

Jones Falls on the Rideau Canal


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Subject: Help: re rivalry between Black Watch & The Greys
From: GUEST,beachie@bigpond.net.au
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:58 AM

Dear Forum, I was recently staying with a friend who had two paintings by "Stick" Walsh, dated ? 19. They were a send up of the Butcho Black Watch, with his sporran sticking out and the feminine The Greys, with limp wrist and cigarette and on his tip toes. The Black Watch had a buzby hat with red plumes and The Grey had a white plume with black stockings. Can anyone in this forum help out with the artist and what the friendly rivalry was of these two regiments.
My friend acquired these paintings on paper from the Red Cross shop and had them on the wall of her sons bedroom (he was keen on soldiers) and had never noticed the detail until I stayed and noticed the comic characters.
Regards,
Anne


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM

The 5th Regiment of Foot won their hackle by defeating a far larger group of French troops at eh battle of St Lucia in 1780 or so. They took the feathers from the helmets of the fallen French. Years later the British king decided to award all infantry units the white feather. This would have taken away from the 5th's battle hoour of winning their feather. So it was decided that the 5th's feather would be distinguished from the rest by coloring part of it red to show it was earned in battle, or with blood.
The 5th also won their helmets from the French in 1762 at Wilhelmstahl by defeating several regiments of French Grenadiers. They were allowed to keep the helmets as trophies and had enough to outfit the entire regiment. So not only the 5th's grenadiers had bearskins, but the entire regiment had them. In the same battle they captured a set of French colours and were allowed to keep them as well. So they had three colours,a hackle, and helmets all captured from the French almost within a century.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:59 PM

Well, sort of. The 5th Northumberland Regt. certainly claimed they wore a white feather as a memento of St Lucia in 1778 but the earliest evidence of them wearing one comes from ca 1790 and it may simply have been an embellishment of the facts to avoid having to wear the same regulation feather as everyone else when it was imposed -with difficulty- between 1797 & 1802. It's an inconvenient truth but there's strong doubt that the French infantry didn't wear white feathers at that time. The first hint of the 5th's claim comes from drafts of the regulations that finally succeeded in imposing uniformity when the shako replaced the cocked hat in 1800-1802. The earliest version of the actual story comes from an old officer wheeled out when Horse Guards finally called the Regt's bluff in 1824 and were trumped by the story of St Lucia. Permission to retain the distinction (entirely self-awarded) was duly granted.

If by 'Helmets' you mean bearskin caps, until they wore out these trophies from Wilhemstahl were occasionly worn on parade by the 5th to the fury of senior officers. The Duke of Northumberland, who was their colonel desperately wanted the Regt to be granted the honorific title of 'Fusiliers' and so encouraged this entirely non-regulation item to which the 5th were not entitled. The practice had died out by 1800. The white feather appeared during the American War of Independence when the expensive and impractical fur grenadier and fusilier caps tended to be kept for 'best' and plain hats were worn instead. The feathers were worn in the hats as an emblem to denote elite status. When circa 1830 the white feather was briefly ordered for _all_ infantry except and light infantry rifles, while the Grenadier Guards, Line grenadiers and other Fusilier regiments appear to have meekly accepted the loss of their distinguishing emblem, the 5th argued their case and were granted a red tip to maintain their 'honour'. Five years later, remarkably, they were finally granted official 'Fusilier' status and became the 5th Northumberland Regiment of Fusiliers. It had taken sixty years. Lord Percy would have been beaming from heaven.

The story of the red feather of Paoli is almost certainly folk lore. The earliest version of the story appears in 1851 and the distinction was claimed by just one regiment, the 46th. It was allowed without any other evidence. There s no evidence of them wearing red feather before 1833. In the following years, the red flash spread to a few other regts. who had been involved in the 1777 attack at Paoli Tavern. A similar story was told of a short-lived Highland regiment, associated with similar events in America. There may be a grain of truth to that version.

Curiously, one of the other regiments present at Paoli, the Black Watch, did not date their celebrated 'red hackle' from that action but from an obscure skirmish in 1795 against the French in Holland. Again, this story appeared suddenly to surface mid-19th century, in the memoirs of two old soldiers. It's now been discredited and the Black Watch feather seems, ironically, to date from the American War of Independence after all, although not as a battle honour but, according to another old soldier's recollection, as some kind of 'tactical recognition' emblem (The story isn't quite clear). Years later King George III had given his blessing but the Regiment forgot to have it recorded officially. The CO at the time was over-fond of the bottle and George III had his own problems. We know this because, as with the 5th and 46th, Horse Guards found it necessary in 1822 to ask the Black Watch to explain as to "from what period and by what authority" they wore their non-regulation 'red feather' and the Regiment was unable to say. They turned to the oldest surviving officer of the Regt for an answer but then failed once again to have his answer recorded and the General's letter was lost until the 1960s (True to form, Horse Guards let them continue wearing the red feather anyway). The Regt. still took forty years to acknowledge the discovery of the letter- probably because the truth wasn't nearly as good a story as the legend.

Nearly all these traditions are presented as some kind of honour but turn out to have more mundane origins, which have become embellished over the years, usually as a way of resisting uniformity. They are, of course, a rich part of the folk tradition.

(Oh, and cockades in 18th century armies were symbols of national loyalty, usually associated with the ruling dynasty,if there was one- Hapsburg, Bourbon, Orange etc. and of course Jacobite. They were often the only piece of uniform common to all regiments and branches of service. Until about 1815, I think, the Brits wore the black cockade of Hanover.)

Glad that's off my chest.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Dead Horse
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:15 PM

And it only took you three years to do it, too :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:41 PM

The far-reaching hand of Google! -


and the truth never sleeps....


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