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BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST,ta2...when bush realises he's been conned Date: 26 Jun 02 - 01:30 PM bush has been led up the garden path by sharon..........taken for a mug........the alternatives to arafat are hamas.....israel out of west bank, gaza and golan, palestinians recognise israel...............israel refuses to accept palestinian country and wants to occupy palestine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 26 Jun 02 - 11:31 AM Afghanistan, Palestine, where next? I give you the Bush Doctrine: "We're not in the business of nation-building. But it's quite OK for us to dictate to other countries whom they may appoint as their leaders." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Jun 02 - 10:57 AM Doug, You are still being an ass, but since this your third time asking for a plan, Here is what I have said in the form of a plan. My plan would be for Bush to: 1. Stop being a hypocrite. i.e. Caliming to support democracy, then trying to bully a result in a foreign election. Arafat's mandate in Palestine is more legit than Bushes. At least Arafat's results weren't tainted by the obvious bias of one of his brother's flunkys. 2. Listen to EVERY OTHER WORLD LEADER (except Sharon) and take a more moderate stand. 3. Try, at least, not to constantly demonstrate obvious bias towards Israel. 4. With his finger on the button of the world's most powerful Nuclear Arsenal, he should learn to pronounce it. These things may not bring peace in the middle east. But they will help the image of the United States in the community of nations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 26 Jun 02 - 08:37 AM BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1797000/1797637.stm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 26 Jun 02 - 08:36 AM More information about Israeli reservists refusing to serve in the occupied territories. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 26 Jun 02 - 05:56 AM Making the desert bloom "Israel likes to boast about how it made the desert bloom, how the original inhabitants of Palestine were "wasting" the land. But far from wasting the land, the Arabs lived within its constraints, in harmony with it. By making parts of its desert bloom, Israel has simply turned parts of Arab land into desert, unable to provide its inhabitants with water, the most fundamental pre-requisite for human life." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jun 02 - 05:27 AM "A fatal mistake...a bloodbath can be expected"
Who commented on Bush's speech in those terms? Shimon Peres, foreign minister in Sharon's coalition.
Here's a link to an article today by Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland. And here's a quote. If you want, more click on the clicky. (Rather than post it all here as "GUEST, Jonathan"): "Bush's fantasy Middle East plan is bound to fail. It will strengthen those who want war, not peace...Israelis committed to a political resolution of the conflict were heartbroken." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 26 Jun 02 - 04:49 AM 446 Israeli officers announce refusal to serve in occupied territories Ha'aretz.
We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.
We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.
We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.
We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF's human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.
We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.
We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.
We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.
We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel's defense. The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.
Many signatures, specifying the signatories' reserve rank (ranging from first sergeant to major) and combat unit (paratroops, armour, engineers, artillery, navy, military intelligence, airforce, Golani brigade, Givati brigade, Nahal brigade).
For information and contributions, call (03) 765-1002 Israeli Resistance: Reservists Refuse to serve in Palestinian Territories |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 26 Jun 02 - 01:54 AM Here's a good one.
"There is full agreement between all those who were in the Jenin refugee camp on only one thing. A week after the end of the fighting, foreign journalists and IDF soldiers, UN representatives and hired hacks in the Israeli media, members of the welfare organizations and government propagandists all report that a terrible stench of decomposing bodies lingers everywhere." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 26 Jun 02 - 01:19 AM My plan would be to dismantle the aparthied Jewish State of Israel, and establish in its place a country where Jews, and Palestinian Arabs and Christians can live together in peace and equality.
Here you go Doug -
"In Israel, Jenin is perceived mainly as a public relations problem (called in Hebrew 'hasbara' -explaining). It appears even that the army and the government believe that Israel is winning the propaganda battle. After all, all relevant principles of this battle have been strictly adhered to"
"Abstract: Aerial photographs were posted on the Israel Defenses Forces web site as evidence that the destruction in the Jenin refugee camp was on a small scale, incompatible with claims that there was a massacre. However, measurement of the area of destruction shown in the same photographs, compared with the population density of the camp, actually lends credibility to claims by Palestinians (and many international observers) that hundreds of people were killed." I'll have some more for you later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: DougR Date: 26 Jun 02 - 12:54 AM Mebbe so, Jack the Sailor, but the question I posed is: what is your plan? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Jun 02 - 12:40 AM DougR, Don't be an such and ass. If Bush won't listen to the leaders of allied governments, what makes you think he'll listen to a few opinionated folkies? Bush doesn't have a plan, he's simply being a bully. You can't mediate by choosing sides. Bush id simply showing how short sighted and stupid he can be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: DougR Date: 26 Jun 02 - 12:31 AM Bobert: Most of the Arab states have lauded the president's plan. What's your plan? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 26 Jun 02 - 12:31 AM It looks like the Israeli government used an "incentive" rather than a threat to coerce the Palestinian Authority to go along with their denial of a massacre in Jenin.
"At this writing, the Israeli press is reporting that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon agreed to a deal releasing Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat from his monthslong siege in Ramallah only after US President George W. Bush promised to stand by Israel during the Jenin accounting. As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, which unanimously dispatched the fact-finding mission, the United States has considerable power to influence its mandate." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Bobert Date: 25 Jun 02 - 10:14 PM Same tune, different day. Too many, "yeah, but..." folks. There is no justification for blowing other folks up over differences of opinion. The US holds the power to end this thing, but won't. It's profitable for those folks who are dictating policy from their corporate offices. After all, they bought their boy and they're gonna get their money's worth out of him. Yeah, whatever happened to the Saudi Proposal? Well, got vetoed by the Masters of War, that's what happened to it. We need a change... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: DougR Date: 25 Jun 02 - 10:04 PM Er, ah ...has this thread been kidsnatched, or what? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST, Just Passing Through Date: 25 Jun 02 - 08:57 PM Well... if there was one sure-fire way to fuck up your own business, thats it, Donuel. You think you'll ever sell another instrument, after posting that bit of insensitive crap.... Get some treatment, huh? PLEASE? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Donuel Date: 25 Jun 02 - 08:25 PM You mean inside the beltway. Things have been amazing Which is a surefire indication something is about to go wrong. Such as http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/wtcx.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST, Just Passing Through Date: 25 Jun 02 - 08:13 PM Hey, Donuel, hows it goin? It must be what..6 months? Been wondering where you were, with all this discussion going on! Hows things under the bridge? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: robomatic Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:42 PM Gilad Atzmon appears to be an Israeli who is exercising his dissident views. That is his right in the democratic country of Israel. It doesn't mean that his conclusions are right. I'd like to see some shades of opinion come out of other countries in the Middle East that dare to disagree with their main governments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:28 PM The Qibya massacre carried out by Sharon did take place. It was an appalling terrorist act against civilians of all ages. Unlike the Sabra and Shatilla massacres even, where the killings were done by third parties, Sharon was in direct command of the killers at Qibya. He claimed that when he killed 70 civilians hiding from his troops in the buildings he blew up, he didn't know they were there.
I think that prospects for peace would be far better if people on both sides refused to vote for people who have been involved in terrorism. But people have a nasty way of voting for the people they choose, and sometimes their choice isn't very pleasant, and you have to deal with them. Even Sharon, even Arafat.
I understand why people think that long articles and speeches are sometimes relevant. But if you put a short extract or summary with a link to a place where the whole thing can be read far more easily than on a Mudcat thread, it is probably a far better way of encouraging people to read the material, and it is what we have been repeatedly asked to do by the people who maintain the Mudcat. The best way to ensure that a politician gets re-elected is for an outside government to demand that they are thrown out. Maybe that's the idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Donuel Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:11 PM Thank you Barbara for your extensive posts. Last time I checked in here CarolC was everyones darling and tongue in cheek nominee for President. The current detractors have little to say except a dose of hatred and a desire to silence others. That these control freaks come out of the woodwork now is indicative of a fascist stench upon our homeland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: DougR Date: 25 Jun 02 - 06:24 PM I don't address replies to unidentified GUESTS, Mike, but were I to, I would ask Guest to inform us exactly how many Palenstinian lives were killed by the Israelis at Jenin, and while he/she was about it, provide proof to back up the figures. Jack the Sailor, I'm sure you have a much better idea for settling the Israeli Palestinian problem than the one proposed by President Bush. Share your proposed solution with us, please. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 25 Jun 02 - 04:11 PM Interesting point, Mike. I wonder what kinds of threats the governments of Israel and the US had to use on the Palestinian Authority to get them to agree to that one, considering how many eye witnesses there were from the international community who say otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Mike Regenstreif Date: 25 Jun 02 - 03:46 PM They turned the Jenin camp into a 'Palestinian Ground Zero'. Occupied houses were destroyed over their habitants. Sharon had committed a crime comparable to the Quibya massacre of 50 years earlier. Although the similarities are very obvious, there are slight differences that should be identified. In Quibya Sharon was a platoon commander, in Jenin he had become an elected prime minister and had committed his crime in the name of all Israeli people. As expected, as soon as international criticism was heard, Sharon defined the current battle as the 'existential war of the all Jewish nation'. According to Sharon, then, the massacre in Jenin was done not only in the name of the Israelis but in the name of all Jewish people. Not a particularly good work of fiction. Jenin? The massacre that even the Palestinian Authority now admits never took place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 25 Jun 02 - 03:20 PM Sharon is the right man for the job Gilad Atzmon
-- Gilad Atzmon
Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click to see this article. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 25 Jun 02 - 02:11 PM hmmmm. Some of the champions of Israel on this thread sound like white supremacists and skinheads. Only in this case I guess they would be Jewish supremacists. Not really much difference, though, when you think about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Jun 02 - 01:01 PM I read on the CBC website today that G8 Leaders want Bush to put pressure on both sides in this conflict. But I'm sure that Bush is right, in championing democracy while telling an elected leader to step down. He is also right in choosing sides, for that is certianly the way to mediate a compromise. While we're at it, we should also rewrite the dictionary so that we all pronounce nuclear like him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST,Barbara Date: 25 Jun 02 - 09:48 AM At a recent seminar on Islam at the University of Toronto, a woman shrouded in black spoke with a Canadian accent through the most all-encompassing yashmak I have ever seen, the opening for her eyes as narrow as a mail slot. The fact that she looked like a visitor from an ancient desert kingdom gave extra emphasis to her cool acceptance of random Palestinian killing. She introduced her views with the correct academic reference. "I'm coming from a Chomskyan perspective here," she announced, peeking out. She meant Noam Chomsky, the professor who finds an excuse for any atrocity against Israel. Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click here to find it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST,GWB Date: 25 Jun 02 - 09:43 AM For too long, the citizens of the Middle East have lived in the midst of death and fear. The hatred of a few holds the hopes of many hostage. The forces of extremism and terror are attempting to kill progress and peace by killing the innocent. And this casts a dark shadow over an entire region. Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click here to find it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 25 Jun 02 - 01:42 AM Ahad Ha'Am |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Lepus Rex Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:31 PM Fool. That link doesn't even work. Try clicking here, and STOP making me cry, dammit! ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:29 PM If you were as ugly as Lepus Rex, you'd hate America too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Lepus Rex Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:15 PM I...I don't know what to say, Warreen. I'm speechless. No one has EVER attacked me with that before. I...I...give up. Seriously. You've beaten me into submission, you cruel, cruel man! Please, no more! Mercy! Oh, and drink me. ;) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST,Warren Webber Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:11 PM "I couldn't hate America any more." -Lepus Rex, January 29, 2002 You must be a great comfort to the Osama Bin Ladens of this world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Bobert Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:07 PM Ain't about sides. Ain't about yeah... buts. Ain't about what the world is being fed by the information managers. It's about reality. It's about failed policies that keep folks ay each other's throats. Those who are in power are failing mankind miserably. And for what? Profits and kickbacks at the expense of humanity!!! That's what. If this is all they have to offer, then it's time for a new world order.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Lepus Rex Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:02 PM Well, if Bush says so... I guess it must have been wrong of me to blame the racist/zionist/genocidal policies of the Israeli govt. for the violence in Palestine today! Dang, thanks, Bush, for making it all so clear! And thank you, Warren, just for being you! :D ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST,Warren Webber Date: 24 Jun 02 - 10:53 PM President Bush has now made it clear that the Palestinian terrorists, and Arafat himself, are the enemies of a peaceful solution and the obstacles to the establishment of a Palestinian state. The president made it clear that it is up to the Palestinians to stop the terrorism and to democratically elect a non-terrorist government. Of course, the goal of terrorist organizations like Hamas is to actually prolong the occupation for as many decades as it takes to establish a fundamentalist Muslim state. They send their suicide bombers in with the intent of drawing in the Israelis.
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: CarolC Date: 24 Jun 02 - 10:05 PM Well, since I'm the one who is being targeted for personal attacks by not only anonymous guests, but named members as well, I think I get to say under what conditions I'm going to post stuff that I know will make me the target of even worse attacks than before. I'm not enjoying it very much, especially when members like katlaughing suggest I'm hurting the Mudcat by posting. So unless I get enough people requesting the information to make me feel less exposed, I'm not posting it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jun 02 - 09:42 PM Personal attacks on people holding positions which we do not agree with are a drag, but there's no way of stopping them; some people seem to enjoy doing that, normally anonymously. Presumably that's part of the fun.
Does anybody think they are doing anything at all to encourage people to come down on their side in an argument? My feeling is that it's entirelyt the other way - if you are unsure about some issue, anonymous flames tend to make you sway towards the side of the person under attack.
But I imagine the idea is actually to try to bully people into shutting up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: robomatic Date: 24 Jun 02 - 09:24 PM Carol C: You will either post your links and let people comment on them or not post your links and continue the existing shall I or shall I not post the links. This issue seems to be defining the 'debate' and eating up a lot of your posts. I don't particularly want you to be the topic, I'd rather wish to know what information you regard as your fountain of opinion. robo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: CarolC Date: 24 Jun 02 - 02:05 PM Thanks Bobert. But as long as people try to make the issue be about me instead of about information, I don't think much will be served by posting information that I figure will be very difficult for some people to absorb. This is how I figure it. The information is there. Eventually it will become common knowlege. It's only a matter of time. The only question I see is how many Jews, Arabs, and Palestinians will have to get killed before people get real about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Bobert Date: 24 Jun 02 - 01:56 PM Sorry, CarolC, but it sounds like you might have a couple of mean spirited attorney-like thinkers messin' with ya'. They're not interested in the truth but picking apart your words in an attempt to tarnish you. Normal defense mechanisim for folks on the opposite side. Rather than deal in ideas painted a wide brush, they only think in tiny brush details. Don't let them get to you. It's obvious that some have allready created their Hell right here in their tiny little lives. Sad? Sure. But not your problem. Theirs. But I will say that until we get a lot more folks seeing a vision painted with a larger brush, then yet-but detailers will keep man blowing up each other until one day someone messes up and blows up this little experiement that God has going here on earth. Yeah, they'll pull out that6 dreamer thing. "Ol' Bobert's just a dreamer". Haha. Or, "Ol' hillbilly don't know nuttin about the real world." Haha. Well, that may be true and it may not be. Afterall, most every comfort they enjoy today started off as a dream or vision. So hang in there and don't let the little thinker's bother you. Hey, they think they are big thinker's, even if we know differently. Some folks are just plain mean-spirited. Right? Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: CarolC Date: 24 Jun 02 - 12:20 PM Well, GUEST, I dont' enjoy being the target of so many people's hate. However. Try as you might, you can't make me into something I'm not. Whatever demonic idea you have in your twisted mind about who I am will never bear any resemblance to who I actually am. And there's not a thing you can do to change that. So get over it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST Date: 24 Jun 02 - 12:15 PM So now it's the Jews who are the "right people." It's not bad enough that they control the big media, now the Jews will control what CarolC posts. How PC of you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: CarolC Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:54 AM I get the impression that the people who are the most traumatized by the information I've been posting are Jewish. I would prefer not to post my rebuttal to robomatic's arguments unless I get a strong response from Jewish people saying that they want me to. Just what, exactly, are you insinuating, anyway, Barbara? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: GUEST,Barbara Date: 24 Jun 02 - 09:35 AM All in favor of me posting links that show the other side of robomatic's arguments, indicate your preference. If enough of the right people want me to, I will. Calling for a vote and then basing your response on the votes of only the undefined right people sure sounds like the very model of Arafatian democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: CarolC Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:12 PM You think, Bobert? I'm getting kind of frazzled. I think maybe I'll take a vote. All in favor of me posting links that show the other side of robomatic's arguments, indicate your preference. If enough of the right people want me to, I will. But I reserve the right to say no if I think it will make me the target of more hate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: Bobert Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:06 PM Hang in there, CarolC. I'd join in the fray but you're doing just fine. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114 From: robomatic Date: 23 Jun 02 - 09:49 PM Of the three long posts, the one by Barbara is the only one that I think asserts real facts. In fact, she is taking three times as much space to make pretty much the same assertions I made in part 113 (of blessed memory) The piece by Bleier, if it is legitimate, is firstly a long polemic introduced by someone else, so it is kind of unfair. I think if guest kiki has a point to make he/she should use their own words and provide a link. Of the piece itself it sounds like Bleier (again, assuming this is a real zionist who 'saw the light') is a person incapable of accepting the broad spectrum of human behavior. His apprach seems to be that the zionist cause is inscribed in holiness or it is nothing but lies. I think the article says more about the author's character than the actual events, which are misrepresented and taken out of context. As for the third long post, a rendition of how reasonable Arafat has been over the years, it is also an imported polemic, basically an unfavorable review of someone else's work. It's a book review of a book I haven't read. I'd rather the guest had made his or her own points. In general, people, speak for yourselves, treat the rest of the list with respect, make a link to your references, then stand clear! I love you all, just not equally Robo |
