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Origins: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)

greg stephens 27 Jun 02 - 05:48 AM
masato sakurai 27 Jun 02 - 09:08 AM
MMario 27 Jun 02 - 09:13 AM
greg stephens 27 Jun 02 - 09:21 AM
masato sakurai 27 Jun 02 - 09:22 AM
greg stephens 27 Jun 02 - 09:36 AM
sheila 27 Jun 02 - 03:21 PM
greg stephens 27 Jun 02 - 03:38 PM
fogie 28 Jun 02 - 03:58 AM
greg stephens 28 Jun 02 - 04:16 AM
Dave Bryant 28 Jun 02 - 06:16 AM
greg stephens 28 Jun 02 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,MCP 28 Jun 02 - 07:19 AM
greg stephens 28 Jun 02 - 07:45 AM
GUEST,MCP 28 Jun 02 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,MCP 28 Jun 02 - 08:05 AM
greg stephens 28 Jun 02 - 08:06 AM
greg stephens 28 Jun 02 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,MCP, Tune Add/Corr 28 Jun 02 - 08:25 AM
greg stephens 28 Jun 02 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,MCP 28 Jun 02 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,MCP 28 Jun 02 - 08:46 AM
MMario 28 Jun 02 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 06 Jun 18 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 06 Jun 18 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 06 Jun 18 - 05:41 AM
Joe Offer 06 Jun 18 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 06 Jun 18 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 06 Jun 18 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,Peter Cripps 08 Jun 18 - 09:02 AM
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Subject: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 05:48 AM

Am currently engaged in a recording project on the music referred to in Arthur Ransome's "Swallows and Amazons" series. (My role is producer/researcher, the very excellent Tony Weatherall will be Uncle Jim/Captain Flint on button accordion). The research has been a doddle and great fun (though time consuming, a lot of books to read). I have been familiar with, or was able to find, all the songs and tunes referred to, with the exception of one song:
"Salt Beef"
Salt beef salt beef is our relief
Salt beef and biscuit bread O!
etc etc. Heartfelt thanks, name check on the CD, free CD, whatever, to any kind soul who can point me to a tune and more verses for this.


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Subject: Lyr Add: SALT BEEF
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:08 AM

Using Plymouth Song Index, I knew that a version is in Terry L. Kinsey's Songs of the Sea (London: Robert Hale, 1989, pp. 141-142; with music; no source is given). Fortunately I have the songbook. Another index (Brunnings' Folk Song Index, Garland) says a song with that title is in Pocket Book of Poems and Songs for the Open Air by Edward Thomas, which I don't have. Here's Kinsey's version.

SALT BEEF

1. Salt beef, salt beef is our relief,
Salt beef and biscuit bread, oh!
Salt beef, salt beef is our relief,
Salt beef and biscuit bread, oh!
While you on shore and a great many more
On dainty dishes feed, oh!
Don't forget your old shipmate,
Fol-de-rol-de-riddle, fol-de-ri-do!

2. Our hammocks they swing wet and cold,
But in them we must lie, oh!
Our hammocks they swing wet and cold,
But in them we must lie, oh!
While you on shore and a great many more,
Are sleeping warm and dry, oh!
Don't forget your old shipmate,
Fol-de-rol-de-riddle, fol-de-ri-do!

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:13 AM

masato - how big *is* your library?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:21 AM

Masato, you never cease to amaze me. can i come and stay for a month or two sometime and have a look in your library? On a practical note, s there any practical way you could get the tune to me? Scanned and sent as an email perhaps? Will PM you on the subject. thanks a million Greg


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:22 AM

Thomas Wood composed "Salt Beef", possibly based on this song. Info is HERE; score is published by Stainer & Bell (Price: £1.60 ; Click here and scroll down).

    (Copy-pasted from Masato's link. -Joe Offer-)

    Classical Music on the Web

    Music Webmaster Len Mullenger


    THOMAS WOOD

    by P L Scowcroft

    The average music lover can find it confusing where there are several composers with the same, rather common, surname. Take the case of Wood for example (It is perhaps as well that Sir Henry is not generally known for being a composer!) We may remember Charles, an Irishman who wrote church music, partsongs and so on and was Professor at Cambridge. We may remember Arthur and Haydn, light music composers both, even if for just one piece each: respectively Barwick Green (The Archers theme) and Roses of Picardy. We may remember Hugh, who is still active. But what of Thomas born at Chorley, Lancs on 28 November 1892? Who remembers him?

    Thomas Wood was the son of a master mariner and spent much of his childhood afloat, experience which, as we shall see, he reproduced in many of his subsequent compositions. He became a Mus B in 1913 after private study and then went to Exeter College, Oxford. Though medically unfit for military service (his eyesight was always poor) he did work at the Admiralty (1917-18) after which he studied composition (under Stanford, like his namesake Haydn nearly twenty years before) and piano at the Royal College of Music. In 1920 he became a Doctor of Music at Oxford and took up the position of Director of Music at Tonbridge School where he composed two songs with a cricketing flavour. Four years later he returned to Exeter College as Lecturer in Music or Precentor but "went freelance" in 1928 devoting himself to writing, occasional examining and composition though his list of compositions never became extensive. He was Chairman of the Royal Philharmonic Society in 1947 and Chairman of the Arts Council's Music Panel in 1949 and was a member of the BBC's Music Advisory Committee; he died just short of his 58th birthday in November 1950 at Bures in Essex where he had lived for many years.

    Much of his music was choral, either short partsongs suitable for competitive festivals or cantatas lasting 15-25 minutes and sometimes longer. In the former category were Comfort, A Country Lullaby, Hay Harvest, Mally O, Old Winter, Trip and Go and The Seaman's Compass (for mixed voices), Milking Pails for women's voices, Early Morning Drinking Song, Together (Marching Song), Salt Beef, and the Swazi Warrior (for male voices), This England for unison voices and settings of folk or popular tunes like Bobbie Shaftoe and Waltzing Matilda for various groupings. The longer items, which are mostly with orchestra, included A Ballad of Hampstead Heath (1927), Daniel and the Lions (premiered on the BBC in January 1939), Over the Hills and Far Away (1949) based on nursery rhymes and - perhaps his most ambitious work, unaccompanied and experimenting with then novel choral effects - Chanticleer: A Tale for Singing, which appeared in 1947 and taking something over 40 minutes to perform, is quite the longest of these works or anything else penned by Wood for that matter. However the most popular of his short cantatas were those on nautical themes: Forty Singing Seamen (1925), for baritone, chorus and orchestra, Master Mariners (1927) and Merchantmen (1934) for similar forces and the posthumously published (1951) The Rainbow: A Tale of Dunkirk for tenor, baritone, male chorus and brass band. I have happy recollections of rehearsing and performing Master Mariners in my last year at school, around the time of the composer's death - rousing stuff, in the basic idiom of his teacher Stanford (who was also fired by naval history in his choral work) but with sufficient tang to the harmonies to supply a personal touch. Wood also produced a hymn tune St Osyth and songs and choruses for a play Will Shakespeare.

    His instrumental works are few. I remember an orchestral march "with bugles" (I think it was called St George's Day) being played in a Sheffield Philharmonic concert around 1950. He wrote another march Six Bells for brass band but this is not heard these days. The concert overture Suffolk Punch appeared in 1930; Daniel and the Lions (choral and orchestral of course) was premiered by the BBC in January 1939 and received a revival at the 1951 Colchester Festival. The BBC Music Library has in its "orchestral" category only a setting of Greensleeves for strings and two Fanfares (entitled General Salute and C-in-C's Salute) for flute, piccolo, E flat clarinet, three trumpets, three trombones, cymbals and side drum. For woodwind quintet he wrote a piece intriguingly entitled The Brew House at Bures. We have noticed his vocal settings of Waltzing Matilda (SATB, and accompanied two-part voices); he must have had a liking for the tune which he is credited with popularising outside Australia, in which country he travelled widely. It was also the basis for his Waltzing Matilda, A Frolic Founded on an Australian Tune, published for two pianos. for organists he made a version of his unison song This England (set, by the way, to John of Gaunt's inspiring panegyric in Shakespeare's Richard II but never as popular as Hubert Parry's setting of the same words) and produced in 1923 a Fantasy in A subtitled The Hill Country.

    Wood wrote much about music (and other things too). His publications included: The Oxford Song Book, Vol 2, a supplement to the original by Percy Buck; Music and Boyhood (1925) suggestions on the possibilities of music in schools and drawing no doubt on his experiences at Tonbridge; Cobbers (1934), a personal record of a journey from Essex to Australia, Tasmania and the Coral Sea in 1931-3; and his autobiography True Thomas which appeared in 1936 when he was only 44 and had fourteen more years left to him.

    Despite a voracious appetite for British music I have not heard any of Wood's music for a generation, yet my memories of such as I did get to know are wholly enjoyable. Is he not overdue for a modest revival?

    © Philip L Scowcroft.

    Enquiries to Philip at

    8 Rowan Mount

    DONCASTER

    S YORKS DN2 5PJ

    Philip's book 'British Light Music Composers' (ISBN 0903413 88 4) is currently out of print.) is currently out of print.

    E-mail enquiries (but NOT orders) can be directed to Rob Barnett at rob.barnett@ukgateway.net


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:36 AM

Funny coincidence, I've sung one of Thomas Woods cricket songs, written for my old school.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: sheila
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 03:21 PM

Greg - When will the CD be available, where, and how much? I want one!


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 03:38 PM

We're only doing trial recordings at the moment,which will be used as a demo to get a tie-in radio/TV if poss.I would hope the CD willbe out in time for Christmas(mind you that's what they said in 1914).PM me your address and I'll put you on the pre-mailout list (I've just invented that term, sounds pretty good huh? Seriously, we do have a list already, the concept is hitting a spot!.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: fogie
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 03:58 AM

What is the comlete list of songs to feature? I remember videoing 3 films of S&A quite a few years ago, and got very into Spanish ladies. Have you got the films/TV productions?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 04:16 AM

Well, Fogie, as I am researcher on this project, and we are in the process of pitching to media types at the moment, I think just for now I had better classify the whole list as "commercially sensitive information". I dont have any films/videos, I have just read all the books, a labour of love indeed.If you want the whole list, wait till the CD is recorded safely...or even better read all the books, you won't regret it.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 06:16 AM

I was rather surprised when the BBC screened a programme on Arthur Ransome. I'd always assumed that he was a Naval Officer sort rather like the "Swallow's" father, whereas he was a rather weedy-looking, bespectacled journalist. Also his political leanings - he spent time in Russia after the revolution and married Trotsky's secretary - weren't what I expected.

I loved his books when I was young and still do. He was definitely one of the people who influenced me to buy a boat. When friends tell me that they're visiting the Norfolk Broads for the first time, I always offer to lend them a copy of "Coot Club" - it's a pretty good guide, even today!

Finally, Ransome's drawings are often criticized as amateurish. I find them charming, and especially like his technical ones (boat layout, chandlery, and Dick's gadgets) - I even have a "Rond Anchor" on the boat.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 06:29 AM

I love his drawings. what is notable (in terms of what I'm doing at the moment) is that while Uncle Jim is invariably portrayed in films/TV as playing a piano-accordion, Arthur Ransome's drawing quite clearly shows a nice old 2-row melodeon(button accordion)


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 07:19 AM

Here's the tune from Kinsey:

Mick


SALT BEEF

Salt / beef, Salt beef is/ our re-lief, Salt / beef and bis-cuit/ bread Oh!
Salt / beef, Salt beef is/ our re-lief, Salt / beef and bis-cuit/bread Oh!
While/ you on shore and a/great many more on /dain-ty dish-es/feed- Oh!
Don't for-get your/ old ship-mate/ fol-de-rol-de rid-dle fol-de/ri- do//


X: 1
T:Salt Beef
M:C
L:1/4
S:Kinsey - Songs Of The Sea
K:G
(B/A/)|G E E D|G E E D| G G G B|B A z
(B/A/)|G E E D|G G G B|d> d d d|B d z
d| e e c e/ e/|e A A B|(c e) Hd2|
G> G A> G|F E D z|
d3/4 d/4 d3/4 d/4 d/ d/ c3/4 B/4|A2 G||


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 07:45 AM

thanks, MCP that's brilliant. I cant decipher ityet: I was going great guns till line 3, but >, (ce) H and z have defeated me. I will go and seek some site that will explain the nuances of abc and have another go! Thanks a lot.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:03 AM

Briefly:
> is to indicated a dotted note followed by a half note eg c> d would indicate c for 3 half-units followed by d for 1 half unit

The notes within parentheses are joined by a slur

H is just a fermata over the following note

z is a rest.

There is an introductory thread on abc: Midcat ABC Tune Guide

You can find an introduction to abc at Chris Walshaw's abc Home Page (the originator of abc). You'll also find links there to software to convert the abc to a midi file or to a postscript score.

Alternatively, you might look at The abcPlus Project

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:05 AM

That was the Mudcat ABC Tune Guide, of course

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:06 AM

well, I've done the abc tutorial but it didnt help with the bar that starts(ce)H. Can anyone offer assistance?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:12 AM

MCP as far as I can see youve only got three bars in your third line and the words need four bars.Am I missing some crucial notation point?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,MCP, Tune Add/Corr
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:25 AM

Sorry greg - I carelessly missed out a bar in line 3 as you noted. It should have read as below. My apologies

Mick

X: 1
T:Salt Beef
M:C
L:1/4
S:Kinsey - Songs Of The Sea
K:G
(B/A/)|G E E D|G E E D| G G G B|B A z
(B/A/)|G E E D|G G G B|d> d d d|B d z
d| e e c e/ e/|d d/ d/ B d|e A A B|d d/ d/ B d|(c e) Hd2|
G> G A> G|F E D z|
d3/4 d/4 d3/4 d/4 d/ d/ c3/4 B/4|A2 G||


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:31 AM

MCP thanks very much, message received and understood. If you are a cookieless member, would you PM me some personal details so I can thank you in the liner notes?Or alternatively post an email address here, or something.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:42 AM

Greg

Not cookieless, just one of the poor reviled(but always identified!). If you need to contact me, you can get me at:

      MCPearce0ATaolDOTcom
with suitable replacements (and that's a Zero after my name there).

Mick (Pearce)


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:46 AM

I should have added, if you'd like a midi or a postscript file instead of the abc, e-mail me with an e-mail address and I'll send you them.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: MMario
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 09:01 AM

greg - (ce)= c slurred with d (both quarternotes) Hd2=d(halfnote with a fermata)


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 05:32 AM

“I enter into the details of good living on board to correct a common impresssion that a whaleman's fare is always poor:

        “Salt beef, salt beef, is our relief -
        Salt beef, and a biscuit hard,


as an old song wrongly has it.

[Davis, William M., Nimrod of the Sea or, The American Whaleman, (New York: Harper & Bros., 1874, p.131)]

[Nantucket Historical Association summary note: Account of voyage; original is Log 354. Used in preparation of William M. Davis "Nimrod of the Sea or The American Whaleman" (Harper 1874)]


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 05:35 AM

“Stanlake struck up at last-

        “'Oh, we are the boys that fear no noise
         When thundering canons roar;
        We go to sea for the yellow, yellow boys,
         And spend it all on shore.'


I remember there was a tremendous chorus, something like-
        “' Then don't forget your old shipmates;'

which always seemed the last straw that broke the lieutenant's back.

        “' Oh salt beef, salt beef is our relief,
         And pork and biscuit fine;
        While you on shore, with a great many more,
         On dainty dishes dine.

        ' Oh our hammocks are both wet and dry,
         As on the deck we're lying;
        While you on shore, with a great many more,
         Soft feather-beds lie dry in.

        ' Oh, our goodly ship has sprung a leak,
         Which puts us in a bother;
        For there's one at the wheel, and two at the pumps,
         Abusing on another.

        ' Oh, our goodly ship is going down- '


[Sadler, S. Whitchurch, R.N., The Ship of Ice, (London: Marcus Ward & Co., 1875, pp.113-114)]


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 05:41 AM

Wiki for Sadler's publisher: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge

And cross post for: Ransome's 'Swallows and Amazons' (1930)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 05:25 PM

So, can I take it that the song is traditional, but Wood published a choral arrangement???


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Subject: RE: Origins: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 07:40 PM

Well, Davis was a Republican...

William Morris Davis (congressman)

Guide to Research Collections - Bio

So the Chelsea's log books were from 1834-37 but are the songs in that older source doc.? I'm holding off judgement for now but leaning "Nope."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 08:02 PM

PS: On Wood, so far it's just him, but I'm still nosing around in the sources.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Salt Beef (Swallows and Amazons)
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 09:02 AM

Are the TARS (The Arthur Ransome Society) involved in the project?


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