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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jul 02 - 04:00 PM Well, Mrr, I would say that the vast majority of people who identify with the "Christian Right" pose no threat to anybody. Need I say more? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 05 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM Somebody at our Fourth celebration raised the question as to whether we'd be an Al Qaeda target, being ungodly. My take on that from growing up in Moslem countries is that Jews and Christians are a lot more infidel than the godless, since they follow a false prophet. I think we'd be in a lot more danger from the Christian right... What do y'all think? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:27 AM This just in - "through the night with a light from a bulb" was apparently how one of my kinfolk thought the song went anyway... LOL! Happy Birthday America, by the way - Long Live Freedom of Religion! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Haruo Date: 04 Jul 02 - 07:43 PM I posted a link to this thread at BaptistLife to see if any Southern Baptists will come to the defense of the sort of legal theism Mrrzy decries (and which I agree is not good, not to mention unbaptistic). Maybe somebody will have a good song suggestion, too, y'never know. Liland |
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Subject: Lyr Add: I VOW TO THEE, MY COUNTRY (THAXTED) From: Hrothgar Date: 04 Jul 02 - 06:32 AM And there's this, to go with Joe's Offering above:
I VOW TO THEE, MY COUNTRY (THAXTED)
I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Jul 02 - 10:39 PM Oh chill out. It's too hot and muggy to get that riled up. Dang Bill, do you have AC? MAKE me come over there then.... ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Bill D Date: 03 Jul 02 - 09:20 PM "godless march on Washington"?....sigh....it gets sillier and sillier. We don't need more marches, we need the God-ly to stop marching and shouting and screaming! A march for atheism is worse than the NAACP and CORE marching in Alabama--it will just bring the really extremist right-wing out to yell and throw things!..(and worse...remember abortion clinic shooting and bombings!) ...The thing is, people associate 'organized' non-belief with the Madeline Murray O'Hare nonsense and are afraid that it represents the beginning to take away their right to their religion......we need to KEEP the issue focused in the right place... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:11 PM Statutes on the books: MD state constitution says that the only requirement for serving is belief in God. PA state constitution says you can't serve on a jury if you're an atheist; and there are others, I'll keep ferretting. Look in Free Inquiry and the article on Herb Silberman trying to become a NOTARY PUBLIC for crying out loud, and they wouldn't let him for being an atheist.... OK, got some info: 7 states are AR (Article XIX, Section 1: Atheists disqualified from being witnesses (not competent to testify unless belief in God) or hold any state office); MD (article 37); NC (article VI section 8); PA (Article I Section 4); SC (article XVII section 4), TN (Article IX section 2); TX (Article 1 section 4); all state that without belief in god (some say Supreme Being, some also require life after death with punishment and rewards there too)... if you are an atheist, you are not *competent* to serve! Then they go on to say they don't discriminate as to WHICH God you believe in... |
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Subject: Lyr Add: A SONG OF PEACE (FINLANDIA) From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jul 02 - 11:57 AM I'm what they call a "liberal Catholic. I generally feel comfortable in the company of agnostics and uncomfortable with Falwell Christians. Those who call themselves atheists seem to be a bit closer to the Falwell people - there's a level of intolerance that makes me very uneasy. We sang Song of Peace (Finlandia) in church on Sunday, and I can't think of a better view of patriotism. I realize a person who doesn't believe in God, might not be able to sing these lyrics comfortably. I sincerely hope, however, that they might be able to feel good to hear me sing them. In another thread, Gargoyle posted a more inclusive version, and I like it very much. Gargoyle says it's from a Bill Staines recording.
Definitive Lyrics (DT Correction): I notice there are a couple of spelling errors in the Digital Tradition text. Here are the lyrics, as published in the Unitarian Universalist hymnal, Singing the Living Tradition: SONG OF PEACE (FINLANDIA) (Words, Lloyd Stone; Music Jean Sibelius) This is my song, O God of all the nations, A song of peace, for lands afar and mine. This is my home, the country where my heart is; Here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine; But other hearts in other lands are beating With hopes and dreams as true and high as mine. My country's skies are bluer than the ocean, And sunlight beams on clover leaf and pine; But other lands have sunlight too, and clover, And skies are everywhere as blue as mine. O hear my song, thou God of all the nations, A song of peace for their land and for mine. The lyrics were published in 1934, and appear in the hymnals of many different religious denominations. The author, Lloyd Stone, (1912-1993), lived in Hawaii. The music was composed by Jean Sibelius (1865-1957) as the chorale for his famous symphonic poem, Finlandia, which was published in 1900. The tune became strongly associated with the patriotic movement to free Finland from Russia. performed by the Indigo Girls on their first self-titled EP. @patriotic filename[ FINLNDIA TUNE FILE: FINLNDIA CLICK TO PLAY TD oct97 |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Jack the Sailor Date: 03 Jul 02 - 11:41 AM Mrzy, you said In many states, atheists are legally barred from holding certain positions, like judges, senators, representatives, and other government posts. Do you have documentation for this? Given the constitutional provision for seperation of church and state, It seems highly unlikey, I'd like to see examples. Is the March target to get specific discrimantory legislation off the books? By the way, the original title of the song was "God Blessed America for me" and it was completely meant in a sarcastic way. It was a rebuttal of Irving Berlin's "God Bless America" I think "This Lands is Your Land" sung as Woody wrote it would be perfect for your March. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Jul 02 - 11:31 AM Well, here's the thing. If you take something that is deeply woven into the culture's consciousness in the form you find problematic, and change it, you are giving people a momnet's feeling of power, to have reclaimed the song from the previous hurtful experiences of it. That can be a powerful tool in starting to reclaim power over something wrongful. But every time you use a tool like that to reclaim power, you are also restimulating the hurt from the wrong that was done. It's power in relation to the other thing, instead of power as pure human wonderfulness. So over time, using a tool like that gives less and less of the reclaimed-power effect, and more and more of the restimulation.... it may help people START to move forward from the wrong, but ultimately it keeps them from leaving it behind.... it keeps them tied to it long after they may have been ready to soar as if it had never happened. It's the reason why you can sway people with a negative, but you can't keep them without a new inspiration-- an inspiration to something better than whatever the negative was fighting against. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Jul 02 - 10:51 AM First answer: So that people can sing along without having to learn too much new material. Upon reflection: Because I have no original bones in my body? Good point! Lessee... I'd have to use an old tune... hmmm... I shall think! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Jul 02 - 10:49 AM Mrr, I just don't understand-- why rewrite what was someone else's inspiration? Why not write new material from new inspiration? Why stay inside the box? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Jul 02 - 10:28 AM In many states, atheists are legally barred from holding certain positions, like judges, senators, representatives, and other government posts. That is discrimination as I know and loathe it. While I'm at it, I'm going to try to rewrite another great song, This Land Is Your Land. Original: This land is your land, this land is my land, from California, to the New York Island, from the redwood forests, to the Gulf Stream waters, this land was made for you and me. I'm going to leave the Your Land part alone, even though I firmly believe you ought not to claim ownership of anything you haven't created. I'd rather think of us as stewards of the land than its owners. But it's the This land was made for you and me part I need a new line for. How about, This land is here for you and me? Next verse: I roamed and rambled, and I followed my footsteps, to the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts, and all around me, a voice was singing.... I'd only change "a voice" to "my voice" or leave it alone, it could be a human singing. When you're out in the desert long enough you might not recognize your own voice... Next: As I went walking that ribbon of highway I saw above me that endless skyway, I saw below me that golden valley - no changes. What other great American songs are there that would adapt well? And Praise/WYSIWYG, yes, my beliefs are thought through, glad you think so! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Hrothgar Date: 03 Jul 02 - 04:14 AM If the "Godly" Americans can keep harassing the "ungodly" Americans, and vice versa, does that mean you can leave the rest of the world alone? Or do you have some casual agnostics who will keep doing that? :-)) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Jul 02 - 06:07 PM Jack- "Just how are these Godless Americans being discriminated against?" I think the fear of "discrimination" is an all too real one, a fear that some of the "Godly" would harrass or even harm those that they knew or thought were atheists. And if we publically question the "under God" portion of the pledge of allegiance we are considered trouble makers at best, if not outright traitors. No one should be forced to pray, for god's sake! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Jack the Sailor Date: 02 Jul 02 - 04:10 PM Just how are these Godless Americans being discriminated against? Do they want to work on Sundays? Certainly if one does not believe in a diety, someone else praying does one no harm. Seems like a bunch of people who like to complain have simply found one more outlet. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Jul 02 - 02:29 PM Mrr, I guess it's a long story, but even the small amount of communication you and I have had has led me to much reflection on many issues, from many viewpoints. I don't think it's changed my mind about anything, but it has sure stretched it into areas I had not consciously examined. Yesterday, for example, at the end of one such reflection, I think I put my finger on what I can claim as my political orientation-- Christian Pluralist. Yes, I am a Christian. And, I do not think anyone can decide for anyone else, "what" someone ought to be. I've always appreciated, about our communication, that if I ask you to think about something, you do-- you don't just let fly, you THINK. The fact that you do that encourages others to think, too. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:54 PM Above, I've always been a bit perplexed at how non-theists can, for example, "be grateful" for things that appear to me to be gifts of God - asks Liland. My answer (and I speak only for myself, not all atheists) is that I am not "grateful" - I am bloody glad I was so lucky. The reason I don't use the term "grateful" is that there is no one to thank for the blessed luck that, for instance, had me born an American and not, say, an Afghan or other downtrodden person. I do believe in forces which can be personified as Lady Luck and Mother Nature... both of whom are deaf to human voices! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Haruo Date: 01 Jul 02 - 05:51 PM Yeah, that'll work. And I agree with irishajo that in the context the St. Gertrude bit won't fly, but there are other contexts where (Baptist though I be) I'd enjoy singing it. (All verses.) Liland |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jul 02 - 02:50 PM Where'd my post go? I said: Mrrz, Oh! I see! That makes sense! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 01 Jul 02 - 01:27 PM Yes, I like adding the "let's" - good idea. We are trying NOT to be confrontational, just folks. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: GUEST,irishajo Date: 01 Jul 02 - 11:53 AM Sounds good to me, Mrrzy. Don't really care for the 'Onward Christian Soldiers' bit as I think it sounds antagonistic. The godless America verse is much more positive. You could change it to 'Let's stand beside her...' to remove confusion. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 01 Jul 02 - 10:04 AM OK, here we go: Godless America, Land that I love (obvious) Stand beside her, and guide her (speaking to the citizens, not to the supernatural) through the night with a light from above (light = knowledge, which is in the head, the uppermost part of a biped) From the mountains, to the prairies, to the oceans white with foam (obvious) Godless America, my home sweet home (Obvious) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Charley Noble Date: 30 Jun 02 - 06:19 PM Well, we could do "Step by step the longest march can be won!" I once did a rendition of "The Tenure Tango" which had the catchy chorus "One step forward, two steps back" with the whole marching line regressing towards the Math Department. Maybe in DC we should regress to the Justice Department, in our search for the mean. I'd go to DC in a shot, as long as I can also dine at one of those fine Ethiopian restaurants. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Haruo Date: 29 Jun 02 - 06:48 PM I think the last verse, Onward, Christian soldiers! Blight all that you meet;is most apropos in the present crisis. The first verse is great, but only really pertinent when the strife is Christian against Christian. And thankfully it's been quite a few decades since that was significantly the case. The last verse, though, works for everything from the Pledge of Allegiance Wars to the Confrontation With Islamdom. Liland |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Joe_F Date: 29 Jun 02 - 06:37 PM I suggest "Christians at War" (see the database). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Haruo Date: 29 Jun 02 - 12:40 AM Mrrzy and Susan, that's the first thing I wondered, too. It does rather sound like a prayer directed, if not to God, at least to some larger-than-thou Being involved in keeping the sun properly situated relative to the USA. Of course, it has the advantage of being well known and sounding pretty patriotic. If the latter is an advantage. Being a theist, I've always been a bit perplexed at how non-theists can, for example, "be grateful" for things that appear to me to be gifts of God, but I recognize that non-theists can and do have gratitude for things without necessarily positing a target for their gratitude (and that there are often other possible targets besides God), but these lyrics do look hard to explain in a satisfyingly non-theistic way. Mrrzy? (Or is this the reason you want an alternative song for the event?) Liland |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:09 PM Mrr, who is it that is supposed to "Stand beside her, and guide her through the night with a light from above"? Where's that light coming from? Not giving you sh*t-- really asking-- what is the thought there? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: GUEST,irishajo Date: 28 Jun 02 - 04:08 PM You might want to ask on the Internet Infidels forum. They are promoting the march pretty heavily. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 28 Jun 02 - 03:42 PM Thanks! Know any good marching songs? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: GUEST,irishajo Date: 28 Jun 02 - 03:29 PM Wish I could go. Best I can do is sign my name as an endorser. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:45 PM In fact, I think we should send a delegation. Anybody else want to march? |
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Subject: For the Godless March on Washington From: Mrrzy Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:40 PM There is going to be a Godless March on Washington in November. We need a rallying song... I like: Godless America, land that I love But I think we need another one. This is not just for atheists. This is for free thinkers and anyone else who doesn't want the gubmint dictating their beliefs. Join us! |
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