Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 09:25 PM

Mary: Thank you, although I can't (at the moment) get that site & details, I will be ordering a copy.
This is now continued at Cân y Melinydd: Final Take!

Nigel

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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: GUEST,Mary Humphreys
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 06:49 PM

If you find the web site of Cerdd Ystwyth Music, 7 Upper Portland Street, Aberystwyth,Ceredigion ( cerddystwyth.co.uk ) you can buy the book Caneuon Gwerin i Blant compiled by Phyllis Kinney & Meredydd Evans for £3.95 + post & Packing. They have a secure link so you can pay by credit card. I did this and the book arrived by return of post. Amazing service! The book is great value for money too, just like their other publications. There are lots of songs in it that I remember my Nain singing to me when I was a child, and others I learnt at school and have since forgotten.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 03:41 PM

"Long suffering" as in having a cold, or does "Snuffy" refer to something else ?

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 08:24 AM

Snuffy and I are sorting out the ABC - Snuffy, the Long Suffering as he shall be referred to hereafter.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 05:09 AM

I finally know what I'm talking about (alright, no need for dissension over that remark). I've just recieved a tape from Mad Maudlin with Alan Sitwell's version on it. So I have now heard the tune.
Thanks Maudlin

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 12:14 PM

Oh, I'm well aware of Lolfa's achievements ... my comment was made in love and admiration. I even had a (very very) small part to play in them going on-line. But they are whimsical, in that they (well - 'he' really) publish a nice eclectic mix of titles full of surprises, and they are independent (hence Lol ) and I suppose they're even 'little' compared to a lot of presses ... but my use of 'little' was more in the vein of 'bach' as an endearment.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: GUEST,Symlog
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 05:16 PM

Gwasg y Lolfa (Lolfa Press), Tal-y-bont, Ceredigion was founded in 1967, and in those heady sixties, acted as a sort of unofficial press to Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (the dreaded Welsh Language Society). Its publications then (eg 'Tafod y Ddraig' and 'Lol' (a sort of Welsh 'Private Eye', which frequently landed the press in hot water)were responsible for weaning many of us away from our forelock-tugging, England-worshipping ways. It was the first Welsh press to use the photo-offset-litho printing process, and the first to acquire a website. It produces a steady stream of all kinds of popular books - in Welsh and English - not to mention literary posters, highly original greeting cards etc. Its humorous cartoon guide to learning Welsh ('Welsh is Fun')has sold over 150,000 copies. It currently has a staff of around 20 full time workers (including two editors, a marketing staff and a book designer),together with a number of part timers. Hardly a 'whimsical little independent press', siân. Sorry to wander away from the ebol melyn, but I felt that this needed to be said.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 03:51 PM

you, nigel, are weird.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 12:46 PM

The cat sang a lovely original composition, duly observing all the musical requirements, and emphasising the correct stresses and not lengths.
That's marvelous" I said, "We aught to have it Orchestrated".
With that the cat jumped out of the window, and was never seen again! Boom Boom!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 06:18 AM

Is Canwn (Let's Sing or We Sing) an itsy-bitsy thing? I used to have a copy but even in my youth it wasn't easily read in a boozy sing-song. You're quite right about the copyright business and Lolfa. There's no way that they hold copyright on the majority of folk songs - the majority of the trad. songs aren't in copyright anyway, and others in the collection probably have copyrights held by Mered, and a lot of his colleagues, as well as people like Dafydd Iwan. Oh well. Lolfa is one of those whimsical little independent Presses - ya gotta luv 'em!

On the music front, I've been trying to work out the ABC and I've just sent something off to Snuffy who promised to take a look at it for me. If he says it isn't gibberish, I'll float it here. He says there's some way of playing ABC back ... so ... I need some software for that? (I'm definitely not a techie!)

Of course, once we get the ABC I will definitely expect someone to do the full orchestrated version!

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 08:39 PM

I have finally seen a copy of this in print, only 3 verses, ('our' first three). This was in a small song book entitled "Canwn!" (We Sing ?) by a publisher called "Y Lolfa" (The lounge ?).
Whilst claiming the copyright on a collection of 102 songs, they seem very slow at admitting anyone elses copyright. It may be that all the songs are out of copyright, but I doubt it.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: MMario
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM

sian - if you could - that would be marvelous! I am working with the midi - but since I don't KNOW the tune - it is a bit difficult.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 03:43 PM

This is getting weird. I KNOW I responded to this earlier. I must have forgotten to hit the send button! O dear - another senior moment. They're coming fast and furious these days!

To restate then - Nigel, you've done wonders. As I said in PM there's no great trick in translating into everyday language - the skill is in putting the poetry BACK, which was your craft. So - well done, in the songcraft but also in putting up with our hemming and hawing!

And may I also mention that this has been a fun 'use' of Mudcat. It may have happened before and I wasn't aware of it, and maybe it's been a bit slow and plodding at times, but I'd certainly like to see more of this kind of thing - between whatever languages!

Well done all!

I'll have to see if I can do an ABC of the tune!

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:14 AM

Whilst it is intended to add this (both languages) to the DT, it will clearly show under Siân's and my name.
However, a cross reference with this thread will show the debt we owe to others.
In the best tradition of the 'Oscars', I'm sure to miss someone, but:
Mad Maudlin: for the initial request, and support.
Symlog: for corrections on our use of 'Y Gymraeg', whether we accepted his comments or not (They were all valid)
Snuffy & Bullfrog Jones: your suggestions were appreciated, whether used or not.
MMario: for technical support, and for bearing with us when yet another variation came up; and for general support and encouragement.
In case anyone thinks I'm not giving Siân enough credit, Her name comes first. She translated. I just 'songcrafted'.

Many Thanks to all
Diolch i chi' gyd
Nigel

Subject: Lyr Add: CÂN Y MILENYDD (Welsh + English)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 10:51 AM

RIGHT: said he, this is the final (for now) version ( allowing for typo's)
These version should find their way into the DT.


CâN Y MELINYDD
(Talhaiarn, with additions by Rhuddenfab;
All based on one 'Trad' verse(see notes))

Mae gen i dy^ cysurus
A melin newydd sbon
A thair o wartheg brithion
Yn pori ar y fron

Chorus
Weli di, weli di, Mari fach
Weli di, Mari annwyl

Mae gen i drol a cheffyl
A merlyn bychan twt
A deg o ddefaid tewion
A mochyn yn y cwt

Mae gen i gwpwrdd cornel
Yn llawn o lestri te
A dresel yn y gegin
A phopeth yn ei le

Mae gen i ebol melyn
Yn codi'n bedair oed
A phedair pedol arian
O dan ei pedwar troed.

Mi neidith a mi brancith
O dan y feinir wen,
Mi redith ugain milltir
Heb dynnu'r ffrwyn o'i ben.

Mae gen i iâr a cheiliog,
A buwch a mochyn tew
A rhwng y wraig a minnau,
Wy'n ei gwneud hi yn o lew'

Fe aeth yr iâr i rodio,
I Arfon draw mewn dig
A daeth yn ôl un diwrnod
A'r Wyddfa yn ei phig.

Originally known as Tôn y Melinydd (Tune of...) first published in "Gems of Welsh Melody 1862". "Mae gennyf dy^ gysurus" was written by a famous Welsh poet, Talhaiarn - after which it was called Cân y Melinydd. The verse "Mae gen i ebol melyn" is traditional, and some of the others were written by another poet, Rhuddenfab*. (Notes taken from Huw Williams' book "Canu'r Pobl".)
*It is understood that Rhuddenfab did a separate (full) version of this song with a nonsense chorus, and that will be added to the DT when available.

Sources:
'Gweithiau Ceiriog' no date but c. 1870-80
'Y Flodeugerdd Fawr o Hwiangerddi'r Plant' : Ifor ap Gwylim (ed.) 1980
'Caneuon Gwerin i Blant'(trans. 'Folk songs for children') Phyllis Kinney & Meredydd Evans (collectors & editors) ST & NP
___________________________________________________

CâN Y MELINYDD (English translation)
(Siân Thomas & Nigel Parsons)

I have a cosy cottage ,
A newly builded mill.
And three contented dappled cows
Are grazing on the hill.

Chorus
Do you see? do you see? little one
Do you see Mari, Mari dear ?

I have a horse and wagon
A pony, small, with grace.
And ten well-fed and woolly sheep
A sty with pig in place.

I have a corner cupboard,
With china for our tea
A dresser in the kitchen
And all placed tidily

I have a golden foal, who
Is four years old, and moves-
With four, fine, silver horse shoes
Upon his four stout hooves

He leaps and prances gaily
Beneath a maiden fair.
Full twenty miles he'll carry her
Of bridle unaware

I have a hen and cock'rel
A fatted pig and cow
And with my wife here at my side
I'm very happy now.

The cock'rel went a'walking
To Arfon far last week
And came back home at daybreak,
With Snowdon in his beak.

This translation was done in July 2002 with a little help and urging from the Mudcat community. It started life as a request for a translation of a song which was to be sung in Welsh, but where the singer wanted to at least know the meaning. It then became a request for a singable translation.
ST & NP

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 06:06 AM

We have already translated as 'I'm doing ok.' rather than 'We're ,,,'so no problems there.
I think we may be in 'Countdown Mode' (as in 10,9,8,- Not Richared & Carol!)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 04:47 AM

Ah, that explains the Ceiriog reference.

I accept what's being said grammatically about 'ac' but now I've checked back to Phyllis and Mered's book, it does say 'a' ... and I can't think of very many people who would argue with Mered on a point of grammar. I think the real points here are that a) it's correct although grammatically there are other correct ways and b) this is a folk song and therefor vernacular (and to be sung) so if Mered tells me to use 'a' I will, personally, use 'a'.

To further complicate matters, I've found an old publication (late 19th C?) that I had hanging around the house with 6 verses by Rhuddenfab - 3 not currently in our 'collection' - and a Fal de ral lal di ral di ro chorus. Also, the orthography is very much of its time and if we can't decide between 'ac' and 'a' ... this will drive us quite mad! Besides, I've never actually heard the 3 other verses used so, not in the 'popular' repetoire.

Having said that, the "Mae gen i iar a cheiliog" verse has a last line, "Rwy'n ei gwneud hi yn o lew" - "I'm doing OK." This is MUCH easier to sing!

We also need to add, to my historical notes, thanks to Huw Williams' book "Canu'r Pobl". I didn't translate his note on the song exactly but all the info came from there so should be credited.

We're getting there?

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: GUEST,Symlog
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 06:55 PM

The three sources I mention above all have 'ac' in that particular line. According to 'Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru', 'ac' is used before a number of consonants, 'm' being one of them (and 'mi' is actually listed in the examples). See also the English-Welsh 'Geiriadur yr Academi' under 'and'. Ceiriog Hughes did not claim authorship of the ebol melyn verse - he was merely recording a series of 'Hen Hwiangerddi' - i.e. 'Old Nursery Rhymes'. Will be away for the week-end - back Sunday.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 06:24 AM

OK. we're going for the accurate Welsh version, so 'ac' is fine, (we leave it to singers whether to drop the 'c' in performance).
Still looking for confirmation (or agreement) on the line 'Wy'n ei gwneud hi yn o lew'. I'll happily defer to the Welsh speakers.
Also, if this appears in 'Gweithiau Ceiriog' did Ceiriog Hughes add any verses, and need to be included in the 'authorship' below the title ?
To quote Johnny Nash "There are more questions than answers!"

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 05:33 AM

Well, I'm sure that I replied to this yesterday ... but don't see it. My ISP at home has gone all to pot! (No ref: to recent legislation proposals...)

I think "of bridle unaware" is fine. It's odd: when you start working on a song like this you start seeing things of which you were previously impervious ... like how Victorian the whole thing is. You can almost make an educated guess at which verses are trad. and which were composed. This one is like a 19th C. My Little Pony. A bit twee ... but that's the song!

Re: a or ac ... if Symlog is within arms reach of the book, and it says 'ac', 'ac' it is. Grammatically, I think it would have been 'Mi neidith ac _y_ mi brancith', hence the 'ac' (before a vowel) but it's dropped most of the time now, and for singing the two consonants together wouldn't work well. We're in the land of heavy grammar here (preverbal particles 'n' stuff) and I'm out of my depth. If Symlog hasn't been able to check the book by tonight, I will.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: GUEST,Symlog
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 04:25 AM

Yes - except for 'a' in the first line which should be 'ac' - 'Mi neidith ac mi brancith'.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 03:45 PM

Sounds good to me! I'll await Siân or Mad Maudlin, who will give it a sing through to confirm that it fits, and trips off the tongue; but we could (once more) be almost there.
Symlog: Is the Welsh version of this extra verse o.k. ?

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 02:27 PM

I like "of bridle unaware" better as well...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: GUEST,Symlog
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 02:24 PM

'Of bridle unaware' ?? A little smoother, perhaps? And 'ffrwyn' = 'bridle'.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 11:20 AM

Refresh: in the hope of 'cracking' the final verse.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 10:02 AM

Thanks Snuffy: Prances is more apt, but look at the timing of my response. I didn't spot the new verse immediately it was posted, but I reacted in less than 12 minutes. (from the original post)
Latest and best(?) (I didn't like my alternative because it tied too many lines together!)version follows.

She leaps and prances gaily
Beneath a maiden fair.
Full twenty miles she'll carry her
Of reins quite unaware

This is a Mudcat co-operative attempt (although I'm planning on putting it under Siâns & my name; but all helpers know who they are!)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 09:06 AM

As if she rode on air?
And none the worse for wear?

I think prances sounds more horsey than dances.

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 08:55 AM

a) Please can I come to work at your place.

b) How do you come up with this stuff so quick???

I like it! Generally. I think the last line is a bit awkward to sing, but I have no talent for verse so I hesitate to make any suggestions. The only thing that comes is ... with halter light as air.

See. Told you I'm not any good at this.

But maybe it will seem brilliant after a liquid lunch!!!

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 06:52 AM

Sian: I'm just of to a liquid lunch, so don't expect the next response to be quite as rapid.
Hwyl!
Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 06:49 AM

No sooner do I think we're there than something else crops up!

She leaps and dances gaily
Beneath a maiden fair.
And twenty miles she'll carry her
Of reins quite unaware

First assay only. This new verse obviously needs thought, and allowance for the fact I changed the gender of the foal/filly in the previous verse.
Could be 'And 'neath a maiden fair, full 20 miles..etc.,'

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 06:37 AM

I don't know if all this cow speculation isn't a bit scientific. I've noticed that my farming uncles/aunties/cousins just have a different way of referring to things than I do. If I ask how many cows they have, they might say "25 in Cae Top (top field), and 2 on the Close" ... which to my town-y mind is 27, but that's too easy. (Sometimes I think they do this just to see how confused they can make me!) (We're a contrary lot.)

Anyway, another verse - which has to follow on the "Mae gen i ebol melyn" verse:

Mi neidith a mi brancith
O dan y feinir wen,
Mi redith ugain milltir
Heb dynnu'r ffrwyn o'i ben.

(He leaps and he prances under the fair maiden, He'll run for 20 miles without pulling the bridle from his head.)

Now, I'm not sure about the last line; perhaps it's "without having to remove his bridle", i.e. without a rest. That's what I tend to think, but I'm open to suggestions ... Symlog? Ble wyt?

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 01:11 PM

unfortunately, Siân has identified the three on the hill as 'Milch Cows' Presumably in need of feeding on wild grasses.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 08:29 AM

Cows in the field versus cows in the yard would be a distinction - the one "in the yard" would be a milch cow - the ones in the field either being raised for beef, draft animals or dry. The one currently milking would be the more valuable.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 05:09 AM

Siân: Yes, let's have the additional verse for possible inclusion. I've almost re-vamped the postable version, which I'll put here, so that MMario doesn't need to identify which changes we've agreed upon. The "Milch cows" is an interesting variation as I was wondering why why have mention of 3 cows on the hillside, & one in the yard. They must be different in some way!
Final question on the alterations (for now): Symlog accepted the 'o lew' in V5, but still gave a variation on the first few words as "how he would put it" Does this need amendment, or can it be ignored? (It would spoil the scansion)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 05:01 AM

Phyllis (above) told me at the weekend that she has kept a card file of a huge number of Welsh songs - noting if there is a singable translation and where - if I need details sometime. I almost asked her about Cân y Melinydd ... but didn't. I didn't think I wanted to know ... 'cause ours is so good!

In actual fact, I saw another verse somewhere (maybe in Caneuon Gwerin i Blant?) Do we want it? And that version used "gwarteg blithion" (milch cows) instead of "brithion" ... but that's a case of bona fide folk process - we'd only have to take it on board if we wanted to, or to 'footnote' it. Ideas?

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: GUEST,Symlog
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 03:19 PM

The tune 'Cân y Melinydd' can be found in 'Caneuon Gwerin i Blant' ('Folk tunes for Children'), chosen and edited by Phyllis Kinney and Meredydd Evans (Cymdeithas Alawon Gwerin Cymru, 1981). The revised version of the 'ebol melyn' verse seems fine to me. Very clever!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 01:07 PM

That was going to be my next question.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: GUEST,Mary Humphreys
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 12:30 PM

Has anyone a tune in ABC for this song? Alternatively, has anyone a source from which I can obtain the tune? I have been to the site ( posted earlier in the thread ) where there is a playable tune, but it does not seem to fit with the Welsh words, as it has been adapted as an instrumental tune. Diolch.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 12:17 PM

Sorry I've been away - I thought I'd be back this a.m. but forgot that I had a meeting in Cardiff.

Let me fall upon my sword from the outset. Symlog is right about the 4 years old - here I go preaching about the inaccuracies of some websites, then cut and paste from them! It's also the problem of doing this at work, when all my books are at home - where my Internet connection curtails prolonged work on-line! So, "Yn codi'n bedair oed" should be used. Also "a rhwng" (typo - I thought I'd caught it) and "ei" phig (I had caught several other 'e' ommissions, but missed that one).

I didn't know what 'dyg' was all about - I thought it might/should be 'dig' which makes sense. I'm glad Symlog has the correct reference to hand. And 'yes' on the 'gen i' as well - I grabbed stuff from various sources because I didn't know which verses MM had to hand, so didn't comb through for consistency.

So, mea culpa on the above mistakes. I must get my home system sorted so that I can do more in the evenings. This business of dividing attention at work between folk music and Summaries of Regional European Funding in Pre-Accession States doesn't always make for clear thinking ... on either subject!

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 05:09 AM

On the question of 'troed/troed' as a rhyme, I stated in the earlier thread that I disliked rhyming words with themselves, so I would expect it to be 'oed'.
This means changing the verse, possibly:

I have a golden filly
Of four years old, that moves
With four, fine, silver horseshoes,
Upon her four stout hooves.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 10:56 AM

Guest Symlog: Have you considered 'the benefits of membership' ? (Somewhere at the top of the home page).
Not only do you get identified on logging in at your own PC, but you can send and receive Personal Messages to any other member.
Whilst our exchanges so far have all been suitable for inclusion in this thread, I try to avoid openly posting either my Home Address, or my E-Mail address, which would be needed if you can supply the copies mentioned above.

CHEERS

Nigel.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 10:25 AM

Guest: Symlog. No problem, we are trying to approach this in an academic manner. I don't know if Siân will be back on-line before Monday, but the more we can clarify the better.
Are the sources in your possession, or a Library. I would love copies of the relevant pages, and will happily cover photocopying/ postage. Or, if they are yours, can provide an e-mail address for scanned copies.
I admit my Welsh is not that good, ('O' level 1971, and not much practice).
I have asked that the 'harvesting' of this song into the DT be 'put on hold', whilst we make final clarifications.

CHEERS

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melinydd; Eng/Welsh
From: GUEST,Symlog
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 09:11 AM

Nigel OK 'pedwar troed' is acceptable of course, but it sounds a bit strange to me, as it was 'pedair troed' that I always heard at my mother's knee! Having looked up a few sources in the meantime (see below) I find that 'pedwar troed' seems to be the norm. But the 'Mae gen i ebol melyn' verse in all the sources I have managed to consult since last night have: 'Yn mynd yn bedair oed' ('Gweithiau Ceiriog' - no date but c. 1870-80), 'Yn codi'n bedair oed' (Yr Hwiangerddi' - collected by O. M. Edwards, 1911), 'Yn codi'n bedair oed' (Y Flodeugerdd Fawr o Hwiangerddi'r Plant' Ifor ap Gwilym (ed.), 1980). The fact that your version of the Welsh verse has the same rhyme - troed/troed - suggests to me that there is something amiss. 'A rwng' may trip easier off the tongue, but I'm afraid there is no call for a mutation there. Nothing wrong with dropping the 'h' in singing, but any printed version should have 'A rhwng'. 'Un ddiwrnod' is wrong also, because a masculine noun ('diwrnod')does not mutate after 'un' - a feminine noun does. Thus 'un ferch' but 'un bachgen'. 'Yn o lew' is fine - that was a slip on my part. I would write the line therefore as 'Wy'n ei gwneud hi yn o lew'. The last line must have 'A'r'('And the'), not 'Ar' ('on'). I like the translation very much - sorry to muddy the waters a little with regard to the 'ebol melyn'verse. Symlog

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 06:20 PM

Guest Symlog: I'm relying on Siân for the Welsh version, but have you a souce for the original ?
It looks as if there may be alternate versions, or alternate spellings.
To take the comments in order (and awaitin Siân)
Yn codi'i bedair oed would suggest nearly four (i.e. Rising to four)and require revision of the translation
O dan ei bedair troed Why put '4' into the feminine. Troed (foot) can be either gender, and in the original related to 'ebol' which is masculine (the gender change in translation foal/filly is artistic license)
Mae genni / gen i is probably a typo.
A rhwng does not trip as easily from the tongue as 'A rwng' which is an acceptable use of the Welsh 'soft' mutation
Similarly 'o lew' would appear to be a typo for 'olew' which is again the 'soft' mutated form of golew.
Third line diwrnod/ddiwrnod also 'soft' mutation
Two comments on the last line are (probably) typos, I'll check.
Please re-visit this thread, as we want to get this recorded accurately, and an idea of the sources being used would help tremendously Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y melenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: GUEST,Symlog
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 11:42 AM

Few other minor edits. Fourth verse, second line: Yn codi'i bedair oed (i.e. he is four years old). Last line: O dan ei bedair troed. Fifth verse: line one: gen i (as in the other verses).Third line: A rhwng (not A rwng). Last line: Wy'n ei gwneud hi yn golew. Last verse: Second line - dig (not dyg). Third line: diwrnod (not ddiwrnod). A'r Wyddfa (not Ar Wyddfa). Last line: ei phig (not e phig).

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Cân y milenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 02:25 PM

Wow! The final version is really good, even though several people worked on it it seems to be one piece...amazing! Can't wait to try it out!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Cân y milenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 10:14 AM

right - but they never talked about it!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Cân y milenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 10:04 AM

Nigel --- I don't know how to break this to you, but even C19 poets used to sleep with their wives (and some of them with everyone else's!) Of course you and I know that no self-respecting *Welsh* poet would do such a thing!
BJ

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Can y milenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 09:11 AM

MMario: you've been watching too much "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" ! your English is starting to suffer!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Cân y milenydd; Eng/Welsh
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 08:13 AM

you guys are awesome!