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Lyr Add: U.S.S. Monitor

GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,DonMeixner(from my office) 07 Aug 02 - 12:38 PM
PeteBoom 07 Aug 02 - 12:57 PM
EBarnacle1 07 Aug 02 - 12:59 PM
Dead Horse 07 Aug 02 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Don Meixner 07 Aug 02 - 03:08 PM
Uncle Jaque 07 Aug 02 - 03:27 PM
PeteBoom 07 Aug 02 - 03:42 PM
Gareth 07 Aug 02 - 04:13 PM
Amos 07 Aug 02 - 04:40 PM
EBarnacle1 07 Aug 02 - 04:42 PM
Gareth 07 Aug 02 - 04:50 PM
Amos 07 Aug 02 - 04:55 PM
Charley Noble 07 Aug 02 - 05:04 PM
Lonesome EJ 07 Aug 02 - 05:18 PM
Ron Olesko 07 Aug 02 - 05:29 PM
Uncle_DaveO 07 Aug 02 - 05:35 PM
DonMeixner 07 Aug 02 - 05:41 PM
DonMeixner 07 Aug 02 - 05:51 PM
artbrooks 07 Aug 02 - 05:57 PM
dick greenhaus 07 Aug 02 - 06:17 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Aug 02 - 07:13 PM
DonMeixner 07 Aug 02 - 07:31 PM
artbrooks 07 Aug 02 - 07:49 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Aug 02 - 07:53 PM
DonMeixner 07 Aug 02 - 08:53 PM
DonMeixner 07 Aug 02 - 08:54 PM
Bobert 07 Aug 02 - 09:28 PM
DonMeixner 07 Aug 02 - 10:36 PM
Amos 08 Aug 02 - 12:17 AM
EBarnacle1 08 Aug 02 - 11:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 02 - 01:59 PM
Ron Olesko 08 Aug 02 - 03:25 PM
EBarnacle1 08 Aug 02 - 03:59 PM
Ron Olesko 08 Aug 02 - 04:57 PM
Les from Hull 08 Aug 02 - 06:06 PM
EBarnacle1 09 Aug 02 - 12:07 PM
Les from Hull 09 Aug 02 - 03:39 PM
EBarnacle1 09 Aug 02 - 04:50 PM
Gareth 09 Aug 02 - 07:21 PM
Les from Hull 09 Aug 02 - 07:53 PM
InOBU 10 Aug 02 - 09:00 AM
InOBU 10 Aug 02 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,ML 14 Apr 11 - 09:08 PM
EBarnacle 14 Apr 11 - 11:38 PM
Charley Noble 15 Apr 11 - 08:03 AM
EBarnacle 15 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM
EBarnacle 15 Apr 11 - 08:45 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: U.S.S. MONITOR (Anonymous)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 03:06 AM


"Leave me, Damn You Leave Me"

(a lyric for the U.S.S. Monitor, wreckage discovered 1973. In a massive salvage operation, the turret was raised August 6, 2002. Inside the turret was found the skeleton of a sailor pinned in place by a piece of light artillery, probably broken loose during the ship's final turbulent hours. The salvage-firm intends to identify and rebury the remains ashore).

Anybody can do anything they like with the lyric, except claim credit for it -- against that remote eventuality, I've sent a copy to a lawyer-friend. But otherwise, let it be anonymous.

(chorus)
Leave me, damn you leave me
To the cold grey sea
Below the winds, where nothing but the fishes trouble me
I've done my best, now let me rest
Asleep beneath the sea.

Eighth of March in sixty-two
Up Hampton Roads she steamed
A scuttled federal ship they'd raised
A black-iron fever-dream:

Riding low in the water
Shot after shot she spent
And wrecked the frigate Congress
Whose fifty guns didn't make a dent.

Merrimac had more guns, steam, plate,
We were a cheesebox on a raft
But we had eleven-inch smoothbores
And them guns swung fore and aft.

(chorus)

Our turret took a rebel shell
And Cap'n Worden was blinded
The helmsman got the medal of honor
Because he never-minded.

Aw hell, why tell? You know the rest;
It's written up in your books.
We both of us gave as good as we got
And didn't lose nothing but our looks.

That, we knew was the end of wood
The time for iron had come.
If we didn't cheer as you thought we ought
I'll beg your pardon, son.

(chorus)

It's iron yet, but we were lost
The coming New Year's Eve.
We were sent to, well -- they wouldn't tell us --
When the sea began to heave.

We were steaming south, off Hatteras
Our very own Cape Horn
When the turret-packing came away
And we knew she'd never see the morn.

The pumps did what they could
And we helped with scoop and bucket
But when the water reached the fire
Well, Chief Engineer Watters had an ignorant but forceful expression for that particular contingency.

(chorus)

Rhode Island tried to help us,
Our hauser fouled their wheel.
We overloaded every launch
But sixteen still clung to the steel.

Commander Bankhead begged those left
To leap, and take a chance--
Survive the sea, to fight again?
No thanks -- we've done that dance.

Oh I've been here, hundred-forty years
With a cannon in my lap
Your wars and worries roll over my head
And I never thought of coming back.

Twenty-foot round, eight-ply plate,
I turned coral in this turret
Where the sea-fern grows and the sand-tide flows
And your ideas never stir it.

Leave me, damn you leave me
In my cold and gritty bed
If I've deserved a thing, it's to be done and to be dead.
I died for your stories, find your own glories!
Leave me, damn you, leave me
To the all-forgiving, all-forgetting sea.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: GUEST,DonMeixner(from my office)
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:38 PM

God what is this world coming to. I agree with "Guest" of course which Guest we will never know.

The Hunley and Monitor should be considered Sailor's Graves. We would not consider raising the Arizona. There is no practicle salvage here. This not salvage that can be used in time of war.

Let the sailors rest where they died. Let history record their memory. Some places must remain sacred or nothing is sacred.

Don Meixner


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: PeteBoom
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:57 PM

Agreed, Don - And Guest.

Minor point, the "light artillery" the poor bloke was trapped under was an 11" dalhegren (although I've misspelt it terribly) gun - the 1862 equivalent of a 16" gun on the 1940's vintage Missouri.

Larger, more heavily armed iron clads would come, but she was the first with a turret, and the first to fire a shot in anger under a US flag.

(The USS Monitor was not the first iron or steel US Navy warship. The first was the USS Michigan, stationed on the upper Great Lakes, built in 1840/50 or so, don't remember precisely. She was steam driven with sail auxilary with a steel hull. Around 1900 she was renamed - still in service - to the USS Wolverine as a new pre-dreadnaught Michigan was to be launched. When she was retired from service in the early 1930's, her original power plant still drove her to her final mooring.)

Some folks just can't leave well enough alone.

Pete


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:59 PM

Especially in view of the current events at the World Trade Site, this issue is germane today. As WS said, "Full fathom five my father lies,...There is naught that does not suffer a sea change." Especially as this was to be left undisturbed, it is not mete to try to preserve that which was to be allowed to moulder.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Dead Horse
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 02:42 PM

Sorry to disagree with you guys, but the Monitor is every bit as important, historically, as the Vaasa or the Mary Rose, or even the Sutton Hoo burial ship. To see this vessel preserved would be a good idea, and it is somewhat presumptuous to put sentimental words into a dead mans mouth. My guess is that his last words were "Get me out of here", but that is irrelevant, too. Get her up, put her on show, let her be a memorial to those who fought and died at sea during the war between the states. I only wish that the Alabama could be raised intact from the ocean bed and put on display this side of the pond.
I can see where you are coming from, and sympathise to a certain extent. But given another five hundred years YOU would expect to have such an historic vessel preserved, wouldn't you?


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 03:08 PM

Yes I would. It is a grave.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 03:27 PM

In our Family Archives is a bound set of "Harper's Weeklys" kept throughout the War by an Ancestor who lived through it; there is a detailed report contained therein which I remember reading once regarding the Monitor's fatal last voyage.

For some reason, one thing that touched me a lot in that article was the account of one of the last survivors to leave the foundering ironclad; the ship's cat was wailing like a banshee, apparently all too aware of it's imminent fate (as animals often seem to know better than humans); annoyed by the wailing, the Sailor picked up the feline, stuffed it down the muzzle of one of the 11" Dahlgrens and plugged the big cannon's mouth with a "tompion", which was normally inserted into the muzzle to keep the elements out of the bore. It is assumed that the cannon became the poor cat's seplechure for the next 140 years or so.
I can't help but wonder if they find a feline skeleton still reposing in the barrel of one of the Monitor's two long - silent Dahlgrens.

Make that casualty list 16 Union Tars and a cat.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: PeteBoom
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 03:42 PM

The difference between the Monitor and the Vasa, Mary Rose and the Sutton Hoo ship is pretty simple. The three were excavated/recovered to fill knowledge - essentially to answer questions on HOW the ships were built. Their recovery filled the knowledge gap of Western Europe's history.

Portions of the Monitor's hull have been brought up, as was at least portions of her power plant/boiler system. The rest of the ship is too fragile to bring up as it is.

I see little gain in the general knowledge or major gaps to be filled by raising the turret - which is what was recently raised. Why? Because we have Erickson's original designs and construction notes. We had, until after WWI, examples of subsequent "monitor" ships IN SERVICE. They were built on improvements in the original design, after the builders had a chance to re-think the limitations of the original vessal. Information from the surviving officers and crew of the original Monitor was incorporated into the later (1863-@1870) designs. These vessels were used as harbor defense ships through WWI.

On top of that, we have many photographs of the original Monitor. Do these answer every question? No - will there be additional information gleaned from the metal raised from the sea? Not likely.

If I remember the story right, two officers were set to head up the turret ladder - one allowed the other to go first - saying something like, "after you, sir" - First guy out survived, the other one was knocked back into the turret by a wave, as she rolled over and went down with the ship. Part of me says that's the guy they found and brought up.

If we're going to raise the Monitor to preserve her as a "historic vessel" - then let's raise the Utah, the ships in Truk Lagoon, the Sherman amphibious tanks that took their crews down with them the morning of 6 June trying to "swim" ashore, the Lusitania, the Prince of Wales, the Hood and the ships lost at Jutland.

Then let's dig up the dead at Sharpsburg, Gettysburg, the Somme, Ypres and elsewhere to see what we can learn from them.

Maybe not. Maybe we should let the dead rest.

Pete


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:13 PM

Hmm ! I am never very happy at the thought of a Grave being disturbed. Unfortunatley it can be a matter of chance if any diving opperation finds or disturbs any human remains - Vide the "HMS Edinbugh" gold salvage.

A parallel might be the recovery of bodies from WW2 Aircraft wrecks which are still discovered in South East England. Certainly from existing records every attempt is made to indentify, and give a formal burial with next of kin present. In the aircraft case this is reasonably easy as RAF, USAAF, and Luftwafen records still show the allocated pilots against the Aircraft, and Engine or Gun indentification numbers reveal which Aircraft it was.

Unfortunately the case of the remains on the "USS Monitor" will require different methods (? DNA testing of decendants - is it possible ?), but a burial, with full honours, and respect is neccessary.

A possible way round would be using the existing plans and specifications to build a replica. The railway, and aircraft preservation people have had no problem with this over the years.

No, but let the Hood, Bismark, Arizona, or Yamamato for example lie where they are.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:40 PM

Graves are not _really_ all that terribly important, ya know. I am personally thrilled that that historic piece of engineering should come back to the ken of men after so many years. If the owner of that long decrepit skeleton was still hanging around there, worrying about his sad fate, why it was probably a favor to jar him out of his obsession so he could get on with more interesting work! It's not as though he hasn't had enough time to recover!

A


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:42 PM

Thread drift: The last monitors were used as floating batteries during the invasion of Italy.

The point, as mentioned, is that other than the presence of the artifact, we would gain no new knowledge. We know the seals failed. This was not a Challenger disaster. The rivets held. The vessel served honorably. Leave her and her crew alone.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:50 PM

EB And Normandy and Walcheran (sp) Same basic design, two or more large guns on a shallow daught armoured hull, but were intended for Coastal Bombardment. HMS Roberts and Erebus come to mind.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:55 PM

Well, I dunno about her crew themselves, but if I had drowned in that affair, I would have been off to New Orleans in a split minute looking for some part to play in the upcoming birth of Jass, as it was to be called, or something equally exciting in the Big Apple or somewhere. The last thing on my mind would be to hang around staring at the seabottom. Dull, dull, dull!


A


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:04 PM

There probably isn't any way to resolve the moral or historical questions here but no reason not to restate what ever peference we might have. I do hope whatever human and feline remains are recovered are identified and reburied, rather than exhibited with the other artifacts. Whatever interesting hardware they can recover I believe would be of public interest; there just arn't that many monitors around and this was the first one, and a radically different design from earlier iron clad warships.

As an aside, during the Texas war of independence from Mexico, I seem to remember reading that the Mexican Navy had a small fleet of French designed ironclads which were reduced to junk by the conventional wooden ships of the Texas revolutionary navy, back in the 1830's.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:18 PM

I didn't hear these objections raised about the Hunley salvage. Was that a different situation?

I have to admit I was all for salvaging the Monitor until reading this thread. Guest's song and some comments by others are making me reevaluate that sentiment.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:29 PM

Guest's song is nice - did a dead person write it??? I'm wondering whose wishes we are trying to honor.

I don't mean to be callous or flippant about death, but is the undersea site really a grave? If remains can be recovered and given a proper burial, is that immoral?

Someone mentioned the World Trade Center. Every effort was made to recover remains. Once it became evident that no further remains could be recovered, THEN the site became a final resting place.

Ron


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:35 PM

The thought has been variously expressed above: "Leave the grave(s) alone."

As I see it, this is not a grave. It is a place where a body (or maybe it's "bodies") were accidentally detained after a disastrous event. A grave is a place where survivors or a society place a body, with intention, and usually with a degree of ceremony. The body(s) there should receive their proper honorable ceremonial interment, say I.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:41 PM

Hi Lonesome,

Review my comments in "The Hunley Being Opened Today" Thread.

This is a no gray area with me. I am as strongly held of my feelings regarding graves of ancient peoples as well.

It is fascinating to know that Andean Mummies had maize in the bellies. Rebury them where they where found with reverence and grace. It is intersting that Sioux Indians who died in the 1700's had none of the diseases brought from Europe to west in the 1800's. Rebury them where they were found with the service of a living Native Shaman or religious leader. We don't need to autopsy every set of mortal remains found to satisfy our notions of historical science.

Don Meixner


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:51 PM

Ron,

For centuries men's bodies have been "Consigned to the deep to wait the sure and certain ressurection". Merchant Mariners and Military Men from the world round who have died at sea have been interred in this manner. That is surely a grave where ever these bodies have come to rest.

Tradition has held that all men and women who take their living on the seas or in the service of their countries who die at sea unfound lie in a sailor's grave.

The annual funeral services for lost fisherman along the east coast for years have held these beliefs. I know it's a tradition but then what are most religious beliefs but traditions.

Don Meixner


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:57 PM

I don't really think any of us can speak for a sailor who has been dead for so long. I do know that there were a large number of memorials raised around Civil War battlefields by survivors to commemorate their comrades and we have a lot of military cemetaries that date from that era. Perhaps, given the choice, this seaman would have preferred a real tombstone and a place where his descendants could come to remember him.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 06:17 PM

Of course, this could be the cornerstone of a new theme park---Monitorland?


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:13 PM

Don,

As you said all sailors who are lost at sea "unfound". They know where the ship is and found a skeleton so it is not "unfound". Lost at sea is different then a situation like this.

The mariners that you refer to in days of old were buried at sea mainly because it wouldn't be a pleasant trip with a rotting carcase on such a lengthy journey. Traditions are often formed around outmoded needs.

If I'm involved in an auto accident should my body remain at the intersection of 4th and Main or receive a proper burial if my corpse is found?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for honoring traditions. Burial at sea is something to be respected. In this case it might not be the way to go.

Ron


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:31 PM

Ron,

WE will agree to differ.

I know that no disrespect is meant in this regard. Hopefully these remains will be intered with respect where ever their decendents wish and full military honors as known in the south will be accorded them.

Don


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:49 PM

Hey, Don, the Monitor was a UNION ship!


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:53 PM

We agree Don! These remains are not lab experiments and deserve to have a proper burial. Perhaps if they can discover the name of the individual(s) there might be some desendants who can decide what the proper burial should be.

Ron


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 08:53 PM

Yikes! Hush Ma' Mouf an' call me Cletus!

I am sorry. You are right.

But hells belles, Monitor, Merrimac. They's all jess boats.

Don


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 08:54 PM

Art,

I was really ranting more about the Hunley.

Don


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 09:28 PM

Well, every one else has gotten their 2 cents in so... what the heck...

If I were the spirit of one of the men who died on the Monitor, I'd be purdy darned glad to have folks a hundred and forty some years later doing something that would in some small manner bring remembrace on my time here. These guys were taken well before their times. Most were young men. Yeah, there might be some spiritual unrest that some feel occurs when the circumstances of one's demise don't match the plan of the Creator.

Hey, just my opinion. Not trying to start some big fued.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 10:36 PM

Fued?


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 12:17 AM

Soun's lak ol' Bobert is already half-fued!! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 11:16 AM

Charley, until the Battle of Hampton Roads there had been many efforts to produce iron clad vessels, including some of the vessels which were present but unable to stand up to CSS Virginia. Iron plates were attached to the skins of the ships in question. As noted, they all failed in one way or another.

With regard to places like the Trade Center and Oklahoma City, if they were under water, they would probably have been treated like Port Royal and left alone until some archeologist came along to see how Americans lived in the 20th Century. The fact of being on land made recovery both possible and necessary both out of respect and as a matter of public health.

It is of a piece that the Glomar Explorer was used to pick up sunken submarines and that there seems nowhere for a sunken body to lie.

There was an extreme tide recently off Cherbourg. I believe CSS Alabama was one of the vessels briefly exposed. The entire crew were evacuated before she went down. Does this mean that she is now fair picking for any self described archeologist/artifact hunter?


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 01:59 PM

There was talk of raising the Alabama about 5 years ago. Ownership of the wreck was disputed. Britain claimed her because they paid for her (and repaid US govt. for the damage she did), the French because she was in French waters, and also the Americans, I forget why.
Gareth has told us in another thread that his own grandfather lies in the wreck of his torpedoed merchantman.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:25 PM

Ebarnacle - as you say, a body that dies on land can be recovered and is given a proper burial out of repect and concerns for public health. In 2002 because of technological advances it is possible to recover remains from the Monitor and other ships that you refer to. At the time of the disasters it would have been virtually impossible to do so.

My personal feeling is that if a body can be recovered then it should be occur out of respect to the survivors - land or sea.

Why do we search for airplane wreckages from WWII or other conflicts? Because it helps bring closure. Sure everyone knows that those people on the Arizona or the Monitor perished. IF we can honor the dead, and more importantly remember their deeds for the sake of the survivors, then I feel that efforts should be made.

When we approach subjects with solutions based on tradition alone, we often miss opportunities to do things right.

Ron


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:59 PM

Ron, I see your point. What, however, could be more honorable than to remain on post in the world's first effective ironclad? They honor each other and we know who they are.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 04:57 PM

Perhaps a place of honor in Arlington where others can pay their respects and they can share hallowed grounds with other heroes. Instead of being a chapter in a history book they will be remembered by those wishing to pay remember their sacrifice.

If I were in their place (and I wish I could be considered as brave, dedicated, and patriotic as they were) I would not wish to be interred at the bottom of the sea in a coral encrusted tomb, forgotten except for those who study history. I would feel comfortable knowing my sacrifice was recognized in a place fitting my efforts.

Ron


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 06:06 PM

Ebarnacle - I hope that you can pop over to these islands some day. If you do you might like to go to Portsmouth and visit HMS Warrior (1860). Although of a different type (a sea-going broadside ironclad) it might be argued that she was the first effective ironclad, as she was not a coastal vessel, and capable of employment anywhere. I doubt that her guns would have made any more of a dent in Monitor than the CSS Virginia's (as the old Merrimac was renamed). She was hulked as a coal wharf before her full restoration, so she has been afloat all her life. The visit is well worthwhile.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 12:07 PM

I may be over that way next year as part of a business trip for some anti-barnacle coating I am developing for ships and boats to conform with the EU 2003 standard. Both Warrior and Rose, as well as Wasa, are definitely on my agenda as points of admiration and honor.

PS, I have also done local marine archeology about 25 years ago on the former ships' graveyard on Black Tom Channel where the WWI explosion took place and where Liberty State Park now is. Fortunately, it was required by law before they could pave it all over.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Les from Hull
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 03:39 PM

The Buffel (turret ram, 1868) is preserved in Rotterdam. I suppose she's about the closest we'll see to the Monitor above the water.

http://www.oz.net/~markhow/pre-dred/buffel.htm


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 04:50 PM

New York "Daily News" on page 34, today's date "Full military burials for Monitor sailors."

"They served their country bravely. Now, some of the crewmen of the Civil War warship Monitor will finally get the burial they deserve.

Workers cleaning the Union ship's 150-ton turret, raised Monday from the water off Cape Hatteras, N>C>, found more human remains Wednesday.

Most of a skeleton was found pinned under the canno where divers discovered remains Saturday. Other bones were found about 15 feet away, buried in the sil and debris that partially fills the 9-foot-high, 22-foot-diameter cylinder.

"We have two confirmed sets of human remains and a possible thierd," John Broadwater, chief scientist of the Monitor National Marine Sanctuary, told the Daily News from aboard the barge Wotan, which will arrive in Newport News, Va., with the turret today.

Scraps of clothing, uniform buttons, a leather boot and a pocketknife were also found, Broadwater said.

"We're really hoping that the knife has some initials on it. It would really be a big help in getting an identification," he said.

The remains are being sent to the Army Central Identification Laboratory in Hawaii, which had an anthropolgist at the site.

Spokeswoman Ginger Coouden said scientists have yet to decide whether to use DNA testing or other means to try to identify which of the crew members the remains belong to.

Four officers and 12 sailors died when the ironclad Union warship sank in a storm Dec. 31, 1862. The wreck was discovered in 1973.

CREW MEMBERS TRACED

Among the crew who perished was Yoeman William Bryan, 32, who enlisted in New York, Quarter Gunner James Fenwick, 24, born in Scotland, and first Class Boy Robert Cook, 18, an escaped slave who joined in Virginia.

Fenwick left behid a pregnant wife,said Irwin Berent, a Norfolk, Va., historian who researched the crew's history. Berent unearthed a letter Fenwick wrote to his wife, promising to send her $40 "just as soon as I return."

Broadwater said he hopes scientists can identify the remains and notify the sailors' descendants.

"It would be just worderful for us, one of the most satisfying things about the project, if we could return these men to their families," he said.

Lt. Cmdr. Ron Hill, a Navy spokesman, said the remains will be laid to rest with respect.

"They are to be buried with full military honors at a national cemetery," he said.

[Just thought you folks would like an offical update. EBarnacle]


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 07:21 PM

Which is as it should be.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Les from Hull
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 07:53 PM

Reading back through this thread, the point about the light artillery some poor soul was trapped under. Monitors of this type did often carry a couple of light field pieces as anti-boarding weapons (on field carriages on deck). So it may be what the lines given by the Guest who stated this thread were about.


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 09:00 AM

Re the Alabama salvage... there was a question about why the US controlls the salvage rights, Confederate warships were returned to the ownership of the Federal navey, so their wrecks are also US navy vessels, one nation cannot salvage the remains of another's navy vessels - so when a pal of mine tried to sell the Alabama's bell, the case when up to the US sup ct. and he lost... the bell is now in a Navy museum. There was some salvage done by a US firm under an agreement with the navy and aided by the French navy to rase one of her guns as well as some other things, tea service from the Captain's cabin etc...
Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 09:02 AM

A funny note on Alabama salvage, one of the plates found abord her turned out to be made in the 1920s... tossed off a yacht it fell onto the Alabama where muggins found it... Larry


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Subject: RE: U.S.S. Monitor
From: GUEST,ML
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:08 PM

Really no grave is being disturbed, only the turret, engine, some of the armor plating, and the propeller/shaft- not the entire ship as it is considerably too fragile from years of deterioration.


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Subject: RE: lyr ADD: U.S.S. Monitor
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 11:38 PM

By the way, the plating half model of Monitor is to be found on the wall of the New York Historical Society. The model is on the 4th floor. I was visiting one day and happened to look up. Above my head was a marked up half model of Monitor. When I looked it up in their computer, they identified the donor, who was one of the construction crew bosses and, therefore, had need for the model until the vessel was completed and until it was clear that just the one vessel was being built to this model.

I advised them that this was more than just a model of Monitor and explained the context.

Monitor was basically a critical vessel in the history of warship architecture. Although both North and South had Virginia style setups, the point is that Monitor was the first fully armored vessel to be screw powered and have a rotating turret. Rotating turrets were not new. Neither was armor. Screw power was being experimented with. Its relative lack of vulnerability compared to sidewheels made it desireable as a driving modality. Making the hull out of the armor, rather than being a wooden vessel "clad" with iron was a major change. As mentioned above, there were at least two others which incorporated elements of the design. Monitor, however, was revolutionary.

I believe that Cumberland was an ironclad. Virginia was, however, a ram, as well as floating battery. Although the ram failed in operation, damaging the hull, it was sufficient to inspire Jules Verne's account of Nautilus's attack in the book "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea."


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Subject: RE: lyr ADD: U.S.S. Monitor
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:03 AM

Eric-

"I believe that Cumberland was an ironclad."

No, she was a wooden hulled sailing frigate built in the 1840's.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: lyr ADD: U.S.S. Monitor
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM

OK, I thought she had Iron plating added at a later date.


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Subject: RE: lyr ADD: U.S.S. Monitor
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:45 AM

At any rate [bad pun] the War Between the States was also a war in which both sides used "battery ships" and only the Union used "turret ships." I realized this when I saw a couple of photos of the battle of Vicksburg [1863] showing Union gunboats/floating batteries which were essentially similar to CSS Virginia. As we know, turret ships prevailed.


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