which do you prefer?

Subject: which do you prefer?
From: GUEST,sean o songs
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 07:45 PM

When writing a new song I normally try to compose an air and then place words to the air. Sometimes this works quite well! On the other hand, I have written the words and then tried to compose an air - This is harder to do (for me) but usually works out better! What do all you FOLK-CATTERS do. The reason I am asking is, in our monthly season this came up in debate and we were fairly devided. Sean

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 08:34 PM

I've written words to tunes I'd already done, but it's much harder than the other way around. It could just be me, but it's easier to find a melody that brings out the best in the words than find words to fit a melody. Sometimes, words and tune happen together but that's really rare.

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 09:01 PM

I usually work on the words and melody at the same time.

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 09:28 PM

If you write the words first, and then the tune, you can audition several chord patterns/tunes until you find the one that best fits the words.

If you write the tune first, you must limit yourself to the words that will fit within the template you've already defined by the tune.

I have a whole pocketful of tunes that "I need to write some words to go with....". The only ones I've actually written words to are some swing progression type things that are so "generic" that they needed words to give them more definition. I have never successfully put words to a truly original instrumental.

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 11:08 PM

Most of the "pros" work the music first and the lyrics second. However, I say do whatever works for you. If it's harder, but yields better results, go for it.

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: khandu
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 01:16 AM

Usually, I write both at the same time. Occassionally, I write the music first then later (sometimes, much later) the lyrics.

Only once have I written words without an instrument handy. However, as I was writing the lyrics, I could hear the music (and knew the chords) in my head.

khandu

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 02:48 AM

I'm crap at writing tunes, so I borrow others. Some would say I'm crap at writing songs too, but hey, I don't care... I've acheived the ultimate in fame and notoriety - I've had my own songs sung back to me and the singers have been unaware that they are a) mine and b) contemporary rather than trad., so I don't really care.

Sometimes I've written a song or a fragment, and then a tune has popped up from some other artist that just fits it. Trouble is I have to wait until it comes out on a CD before I can steal it, because I don't have the sort of memory that can pick up a tune that easily. So if anyone out there has a few tunes needing words........?

LTS

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 02:53 AM

Most classical song composers start with the words first, be it the libretto for an opera or a poem they wish to set to music. A libretto tells a story, and stories involve emotions. Mozart, Puccini, Verdi, the all started with the libretto first. Broadway musical composers usually start with "the book." A well constructed poem invariably has a strong emotional content. Music can be, and almost always is, constructed to express emotions. When written as a setting for a poem (Schubert did a lot of this), the melody can be tailor-made to the emotional content, underlining and enhancing it. I don't see how this is possible when you start with the tune. If you do it that way, rather than the tune being tailor-made, it's rather like picking a suit off the rack and trying to find someone it will fit. I know some people do it that way, but it seems like making the project sort of "catch as catch can." Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Really good melodies are usually made up from the natural speech rhythms and inflections of the words, which means the words really need to come first.

I don't write songs myself, but I know that's the way classical composers do it, and they rarely fail to produce a quality product. And Woody Guthrie always knew what he wanted the song to be about, had a few lines in mind, picked a tune (usually traditional) that seemed to fit, then cobbled the tune to make it work. It looked like he was doing both together, but the words actually came first.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Aug 02 - 12:32 AM

Well, I'm not much of songwriter, but I do know that if I want to make up a new melody, that the place to do it is in the car. Put an instrument in my hands, and I fall into comfortable, nay hackneyed, patterns.

Frederick Loew, who wrote the music for My Fair Lady and Camelot, started out by composing at the piano, then moved to the "in car" method.

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Aug 02 - 08:04 AM

Sometimes the words can suggest a tune themselves.... Who can say 'if I were a rich man' without thinking of the tune (and standing with arms aloft and legs braced doing the Topol chest wiggle), or even just say phenomenon and not have that bloody annoying boo boo be doo boop song by The Muppets spring to mind..... arrrggh!!!

Have to go and exorcise those Mucking fuppets now!!

LTS

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 18 Aug 02 - 08:41 PM

First..the lyrical idea...then the lyric...and the tune comes with the words...the idea comes like an E mail..that seems to be the talent...the downloading is the craft, and that can be practised and learned...but picking up the original lyric idea can't be taught, only developed if you've got it.

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 12:28 AM

Then there's the time that I wrote a song, and when Tree heard it she said "I don't like that tune, it would sound much better to -Home on the Range-" and it sure did. So the original tune got lost and I can't remember anything about it now.

Hey Squeaks, we all BORROW tunes but there is this unspoken creed among songwriters that we never TELL.

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 05:24 AM

I tend to write words to existing tunes - most frequently extra verses to existing songs although I have written tunes to poems and both tunes and lyrics.

I think it's probably easiest to start with the odd verse and chorus, work out the details of the tune - you've probably got a rough idea of it to start with from the metre you've chosen. Then you then write the extra verses. I find I need the tune to make sure that the verses fit well.

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 06:02 AM

I write the tune to the words. I'm crap at writing the words to songs but I can come up with a tune.

cat

Subject: RE: which do you prefer?
From: Ferrara
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 08:56 AM

Bert, LOL at your "Home on the Range" story. The author of "Danny Boy" was having no luck selling the thing. Then someone suggested that he scrap his original tune and just use the tune of "Londonderry Air." You know the rest.

I've done both, not that I write many songs. For a couple of songs, a key line/lines and the tune came at about the same time.

I wrote a song for the memorial service of my friend Linda Lieberman. I wrote three verses first. Then I had to work really hard on the tune. The problem was I kept coming up with "pretty" tunes and that was not at all Linda's style. She was a beautiful person, not a "pretty" one. [Have I spelled that right? It looks funny if I look at it hard....]

The final tune was strong, very original, and a bit difficult to sing. That kept me from falling into the trap of making it pretty when I sang it. And actually, Linda was a bit difficult herself. It was one of the things I loved about her. A woman of strong opinions, as well as much courage and determination. All that comes across. My friend Carly listened to the tune over the phone and said, "Oh, Rita, you've got it. It's Linda."

I added a verse as the last step. I realized I needed it, once I sang it through a few times.

So it's not an either-or sometimes. Tune and words can evolve together.

Just my 2 cents.

Rita