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Interactive tunes for kids
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Subject: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:32 AM I play for my kids'classes at their school, and have been getting a bit better at it, would like to know if others do things for kids in the vein I'm doing. Any ideas, variations, threads, songs. My bit, my latzi, is that I'm a bit of a goof and need help from the kids with songs they know. I do This Old Man and don't know the rhymes--he plays knick-knack on my what? Lose count and skip into hundreds, thousands--he plays knick-knack on a herd of cowsand with a etc. Then it becomes a story of my childhood quest for a rhyme with "orange". I was thinking of doing something with Rock Around The Clock, although they don't know it, they could get the idea, call out times, and kids seem to like early rock and energetic simple guitar things. There's a fun song called Hey There Little Insect they all like, has a 'flight of the bumblebee' trill thing they want me to do over and over, like Pa's Pop goes the weasel fiddle trick in the Little House books. So, I do bouncy stuff a lot. I do the opening to Twist And Shout as an intro and refrain for If You're Happy and You Know it. They all sing Ah...ah...aah...AAHHH! and go crazy. Any ideas along these lines? I also rewrite some songs that are fun but not for kids--Ricky Lee Jones's The Ghetto became "spagetti", and a few of the appropriated tunes on the last Dylan CD seemed possible for re-appropriation. One had some silly jokes as verses, could go that way. One thing I've learned is do interactive stuff last, or it's all interactive--they get worked up. Another lesson was never introduce a story by asking if they were ever blamed for something they didn't do. They have to tell you everything--finally someone will listen! You'll never get to tell the story. Thanks for any ideas. Fred |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: wilco Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:21 PM I have a similiar problem with material for kids. Here is my list for all ages: Found a Peanut, We're on Our Way to Grandpa's Farm, Yankee Doodle, On top of Ol' Smoky (On top of Spaghetti),How O;d Are You my Pretty Little Miss, Little Moses, Row your Boat, Skip to my Lou, You are my Sunshine, Lisa jane, Old Grey Mare, Goober Peas, Clementine, Goodnight Irene, When Johnny Comes Marchimg Home Again, Grandfather's Clock, Y'all Come, Home on the Range, She'll be comin' round the Mountain, Follow the Drinking Gourd. All of the above are on a guitar, with sing alongs. I mix in an autoharp and play: Pachelbel's Canon in D (it's so pretty), Greensleeves, Molly Malone, Elizabeth's waltz, Wayfaring Stranger.I'll use a fiddle or harmonica for Amazing Grace, Were You There When they Crucified My Lord, and Sweet Hour of Prayer. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: wysiwyg Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:03 PM I use the Wee Sing series. A lot of the kids have these tape/book sets and have heard the tunes over and over, and the book has easy arrangements you can use and they can learn too, if there is an autoharp available. Some are call/response or action songs. Spirituals, being call/response, work well too. See the African American Spirituals Permathread for a list of what's here. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Boromir Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:08 PM The Moon at night goes Twink-a-link-a-link and shines down from the sky. The Stars at night go Blink-a-link-a-link and shine right in my eye. The Skunks at night go Stink-a-link-a-link I wish they'd pass me by OOOHHH Twink-a-link-a-link o Blink-a-link-a-link O Stink-a-link-a-link Oh my. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:09 PM The Moon at night goes Twink-a-link-a-link and shines down from the sky. The Stars at night go Blink-a-link-a-link and shine right in my eye. The Skunks at night go Stink-a-link-a-link I wish they'd pass me by OOOHHH Twink-a-link-a-link o Blink-a-link-a-link O Stink-a-link-a-link Oh my. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:15 PM Fred - why not stick to traditional folk music?
Songs that have endured for ages rather than pop that has weathered the decades.
At the same time you will be giving the children history and most importantly, something they will probably not discover on their own...and will not hear on the radio. Keep the oral tradition alive!
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: Jeanie Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:39 PM A great source of inspiration for kids' songs and the way to present them are "The Singing Kettle" - lots of the songs they do are old playground rhymes and traditional Scots - lots of action songs, too. Their entire show is decidedly "interactive" and great fun. Singing Kettle are the scots folk/ceilidh singers/musicians Cilla Fisher, Artie Trezise and Gary Coupland. Sound samples and details of tapes, CDs and shows on www.singingkettle.com They've been awarded the MBE for children's entertainment - and well-deserved, too! - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 23 Aug 02 - 07:37 PM Thanks everyone, and I'm honored by the presence of Gargoyle, in full-dress italics! Wilco48, I do the canon also, or at least a bit of it, as a 'listening game' to get them settled and listening early on. I tell them I'll play a slow part, then a quicker part with it, and when I do the quicker bit, raise hands if you still hear the slow part in it. Yes, Susan, I do have an autoharp, but haven't taken it yet--I'm not too good at the crowd control thing and worry there's not time to let enough of them play with it. I have a few wee-sings. I'll have to check into the Singing Kettles, Jeanie. Gargoyle makes a good point, and defensively, I do a few things, and could expand in that direction--the Juniper tree is one of my favorites, I think Peggy Seeger does it on their tape for kids. I like it generally, not just for kids, everything about it is genuine and timeless. A version of the Ash Grove said a lot to me as a kid--struck me with a kind of prescient nostalgia as my little classmates and I sang the wistful lines about "the friends of my childhood." There was a song called "little birdie" my dad's friends did, but it seems to have been their own version, and I only remember a piece of it. I've thought about trying a round with "i've been to Bristol, I've been to Dover, etc" and I also like the Coming of the May-o, but lyrics about how their fathers are cuckolds and they will be too might get me in over my head. But really, I just like messing with some pop and rock things, I like the feel, and well, so it goes. It's a good point, but not my humble, bumbling thing, and the other side of the coin is that those trad songs were new once, and what we know of some of them today might merely be a variation of the irreverent variation some bonehead like me did of a song that didn't last. Thanks yall. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: Jim McLean Date: 24 Aug 02 - 04:36 PM Woody Guthrie has masses of songs for kids, Jim Mclean |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 24 Aug 02 - 10:16 PM The Jody Stecher version of "Old Bangum" has the sort of exaggerated violence that kids love. Thread 50640: Old Bangum (and reely, reely trad) |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 02 - 01:28 AM The Ghetto turned into spaghetti is cute to you the kids don't have clue.
Perhaps, their parents have heard the Dylan CD and appreciate your remake, but the kids don't care....and ten years from now, no one else will, either.
Personally, I believe you are playing to an audience of one..... yourself.
Sincerely. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 25 Aug 02 - 10:35 AM An audience of one? Myself? Wow, bulls-eye! Gargoyle, it doesn't occur to you I might not be good enough to do a set of trad folk? I do what I can do, and I'm trying to build a set of it. I do play for an audience of one most often, but, no, I simply like playing the vocal and mandolin parts I worked out with the ghetto, my daughter wanted me to do it, so I did Spaghetti. I don't think it's cute, don't intend the kids to "get" it. The point isn't a clever remake, but that I like the music, sometimes not the lyric, which happens to me a lot with pop and rock. Isn't that how Folk will, eventually, eat rock, and other stuff? Isn't it part of the process of what's traditional? Doesn't somebody need to work the front end? Or is it better if everyone plays safe with what's already "proven". My highest ambition, if I had one, might be to be a baby tooth in the process. I appreciate your interest in what I'm doing, but I think your critical p.o.v. is not right for me. Maybe kids will remember that someone shared music they liked, even though it wasn't century-tested, and that's dood enough for me. Besides, I bring popsicles. Other tunes I have worked out fun parts for are the talking heads Naive Song on a ukulele, Greg Brown's Sick Kids, (the lyrics are fine as is) Paul Simon's Born at the Right Time, the good Mr. Prine's Big old goofy world, and some tunes I've heard Taj Mahal do work just as they are--my kids love "little brown dog." I have no idea whether some of those things are traditional or not. I used to not sing at all, and still feel I need an interesting instrumental part to sell my voice. Lately I do a lot of rapid strumming, sort of in the Ritchie Havens vein, only not as well, I do Here comes the sun in a similar way to The Thirty Foot Trailer. For myself, the best thing I think I've put together is a variant of the Cowboy Junkies' If I Were The Woman--sung in duet with Mr. Prine, but as a sort of lullaby--If I were The Baby and You Were The Dad. My version has an image of Skydivers--"we're skydivers falling, in our separate worlds." And I do the little sax solo on guitar with a dead bass--it's the closest thing to a really good song I've done by messing around with pop tunes. As a parent I've really enjoyed playing role-reversal games with kids, you find out a lot about how they see things. Sincerely, I can't agree, but thanks for the feedback.
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Aug 02 - 02:20 PM BTW, the Wee Sing series is about 90% real folk material. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 26 Aug 02 - 01:38 PM More questions, beginning with, shouldn't I resist this urge to poke a little fun at Gargoyle's Natural Selection/Survival of the Fittest perspective on songs, since it's too easy? But I wonder does a song have any intrinsic value before it has weathered the test of time, if perhaps it will, or is it only after it actually has, already? Like that song, apparently written at the start of the Hundred-Years War, that begins "Now begins the Hundred Years War...." Why do so many traditional songs seem to me to describe a world in which good things have been lost, poorer things displaced them, if the songs themselves are proven good by virtue of having endured? Are they good, only not as good as other songs that have been lost? Or do we learn from history that we don't learn from history. Where is it all going? Will we someday arrive by this process at, say, ten songs, from which to select one as The Song, perhaps having a runner-up in case the former is unable to fulfill it's duties? I usually take "scribbler" popsicles which are multicolored so there's no fuss about which child would prefer which color. I thought it was a good idea, but maybe I should take popsicles that have weathered the centuries? Is the ephemeral of lasting value? Gargoyle, do you like folksongs because they are so demonstrably good, or do you actually like them? Could you share that with the class? I think I'm pretty open to suggestions, and take enthusiasm seriously, more so at least than specious arguments. The survival of the fittest idea turns up in some unsavory places, as a circular justification. I wouldn't use it, anymore than I'd use current popularity to support pop tunes. It's so much nicer just to like what you like, I think. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 27 Aug 02 - 10:19 AM Fred: don't trust anybody who forces their post upon you in italics - bold,yet. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 27 Aug 02 - 05:54 PM Oh, I don't. It was fun, though, just not what I had hoped to get into. I do think trolls present interesting opportunities for creating solipsistic identities, but that's probably just my idea of fun. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 27 Aug 02 - 11:35 PM Fred -
!!!I like folk - because - I like folk!!!!
As an added bonus:
1. It is easy
In short - my existence is enriched by connecting to people, events and stories that transcend time.
Because of these qualities the folk-traditions should be shared with youth.
Sincerely,,br> Gargoyle
BTW...ITS ALSO.... F U font color=purple>N
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 28 Aug 02 - 01:58 PM Hi Gargoyle, I'm toying with an idea that you're the ghost of my father. Hope you don't mind. You've been nudging me on a sore spot--I wish I could commit to a genre or style and stop noodling around, tune by tune, looking for things I like. And I'm sometimes embarrassed by some of the pop-rock stuff I like, or like aspects of. But there's some fun in it, too, as an expression of energy and abandon--kind of like tennis today, if you compared it to tennis in the early 1900's, would look insane. Not that folk is staid, but there seems to be a trend of devices and idioms that focus on simply expressing energy, bounce, build and release, and kids respond to it. I do, I like it, I can sing it, I use some of it. Hey Mister, can we have our ball back? (the ghetto) Does anyone know why the cheese stands alone? The farmer takes a wife, everything takes something, then the cheese stands alone. What's that about? |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 02 - 02:15 PM Well, I don't know what the student population is like in the schools you are playing at, but in our school district, there are enough kids who have heard civil rights anthems, patriotic songs, etc. that you might want to include these as sing alongs the kids already know. About the only patriotic song I can tolerate is "America the Beautiful" which lends itself to some hilarious improv when you first (re)teach it to the kids (depending on the age group and student population), and then use the "Oh beautiful for..." line as the leaping off point for silly stuff. I second Jim Mclean's suggestion of Woody's kids material. The family put out an excellent book/CD of it in the last decade or so, called "20 Grow Big Songs" or something like that. I would disagree with the "Wee Sing" series. It always seemed a bit too dumbed down to me (please don't take that opinion as a personal comment on you Susan, as I certainly don't intend it as such). I don't think many inner city kids in racially integrated classrooms would know them anyway. Although if you are playing in the suburbs or a predominately white rural area, Susan could have a point and many kids in those areas might be familiar with them. I don't think the kids need to be familiar with any of the music you perform though. If you are working in the schools, you are there to teach them about music, not act like a tape from home being played back to them. By all means, use anything and everything at your disposal to get them singing and learning new songs. Get them out of the nursery school comfort zone and into MUSIC. Don't dumb it down for them, but do make sure it is age appropriate for their developmental level. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 02 - 02:17 PM The cheese is the only inanimate object in the song. It doesn't have a life. Only living, breathing creatures take a mate. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Soos Date: 28 Aug 02 - 02:30 PM I have read your banter backwards and forwards with interest. I am a teacher of the deaf and teach music to them and I teach all sorts of kids 'folk' music - last year someone said to me - "do you know what the definition of folk music is?" and I had to confess that although I could name folk songs etc and I could describe tradional music I couldnt give a 'good' definition of folk music. Their definition appealed to me folk music - is music sung and played and enjoyed by folk whatever their age creed or colour.It is the music of the people for the people what ever shape, form or sound it takes. I take a lot of well known rhymes and songs and change the words too. The kids often enjoy the fact they know the tune but like a more relevant/modern or funny slant. I also try to add actions or the use of beaters so that the kids have something to do in songs. As for crowd control - set out from the start that when you say a word ( pineapples seems to work well)or do an action that every one has to be quiet or put their instruments down. The kids just want to have fun and enjoy music. My own kids have never been forced into traditional folk but I frequently hear sea shanties and traditional songs hummed and sung whilst they are playing and my two youngest intend to put on a 'show' of tradtional song and dance for their mum this Friday. Music shouldnt be precious it should be fun after all it is still soul food! |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 29 Aug 02 - 09:21 AM The thing about the cheese not having a life or a mate is also hitting a sore spot with me, but never mind. It's the best explanation I've heard. Once on NYPD Blue a detective went around all day asking what Pop goes the weasel is about. Any thoughts? I remember hearing some of the Woody Guthrie CD on public radio, but had forgotten it til now, thanks. I also never had folk pushed on me, but my dad sang and played, and it meant nothing to me til much later. As a kid I silently mouthed the words in music class, and the word music on the spine of a book fooled and disappointed me when I was looking for Magic. Thanks for the thoughts. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: Hawker Date: 29 Aug 02 - 09:32 AM Fred, You have not said what age the kids you are teaching are (or if you have I have mised it by scanning rather than reading!) With younger ones there is loads, with older ones, I find singing games fantastic, there are millions, lots of books and cds available. Haven't got the info to hand but can provide you with title to look for if you are interested. Mummers plays are good too - with add libbing and the chance to create their own song - to a known tune is the easiest We have also used ballads as an opportunity to act out a play, fun and its amazing what kids can come up with - desirable and not so!!!! Best of luck, you sound like you are enjoying what you are doing, so I guess the kids love it too, Keep it up! Cherrs, Lucy |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: wilco Date: 29 Aug 02 - 10:36 AM Someone made the comment about not "dumbing down the music," getting them out of the "comfort zone of nursery school," and into "MUSIC." Many of us have no musical training, are self-educated, play by ear, etc. How do you go from intertaining, interesting folk music in its' historical context to "MUSIC." I'm not being sarcastic, but I don't have the background to do that. Any ideas or resources? |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Aug 02 - 10:40 AM Wee Sing is not "dumbed down," but it is "happied up," to an extent that bpothers me sometimes when I listen to the tapes. I just use them as starting points, though, so I can do them however it makes sense to me to do them. I would expect anyone who uses them to do that with them-- folk process, and all that.... As far as I can tell, no one at Mudcat is capable of doing anything in a cookie-cutter fashion. *G* I mean, if my husband sings them, they all come out sounding like Tom Waits let loose in the nursery after a night on the town. *G* As far as inner city-- all the books I have used (I think I have them all now) include spirituals, as well as some items with a minor key. You might be surprised how kids react to those, even if spirituals are not part of their current cultural mix. And the play-songs, the interactive ones in there, are pretty much what Fred asked for (remember him?), and are not unlike game songs all cultures have invented for centuries. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST Date: 29 Aug 02 - 10:50 AM Actually, you do know how to do it wilco48! You don't have to have formal teacher training to do it. You just have to get to the place in yourself where YOU made the choice to learn and perform the music you do. It is that simple. We all choose the music we learn and perform, unless our parents or teachers are dictating it to us, which is the case in formal schools where "music" is being "taught". We choose what we choose because it speaks to us, grabs us, whatever. That is all you are trying to do with any music you perform for people of any age. People get WAAAAAY too hung up on the "folk" label. Music is music. Stop labelling, start singing and/or playing your instrument with a sense of joy and excitement. Songs don't have to tell stories (remember, there are both story songs--ballads--and impressionistic songs--lyric songs). A song can tell a story to music, but that isn't all that music is. Music is pure fun. Learning music should be hard work, but fun hard work. Music is also thoughtful and thought provoking. Music is mood enhancing. Music is healing. Music is a non-verbal way of communicating emotions. Music is culturally (NOT nationally!) specific. Go crazy, do what you want with it. Just don't fall into the trap of teaching "folk" music with a capital F, instead of teaching music. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 29 Aug 02 - 04:11 PM Hi everyone, I'm not exactly teaching, I just started going in on birthdays, or when I could, to read stories, do some songs. So the ages keep changing, sometimes too quick. Any tips how to stop that? They're presently 6 and 8, and go to M.L. King Elementary in Louisville, a magnet for performing arts, and for Gifted--a double magnet. I haven't tried what a compass does in there, might spin. But when they started there I knew I'd have to get better--at a previous school I went in and the kids listened, here they stood up dancing, chiming in with harmonies on The Lion Sleeps Tonight. Yikes. The school is all the way to the west end, which in Louisville is generally black, and it's sort of inner-city, for Louisville, at least. Many people where I live seem not to know of it or not to consider it. The comments about minor keys and happied-up music are interesting, because one of the things that got me interested in re-writing lyrics was that I thought the kids responded to the mood of a tune readily, but I didn't find a lot of lyrics that seemed to fit topics of importance to kids to the deeper moods and feelings. Maybe that's why The Juniper Tree strikes me so strongly--as I take it to be about a young girl saddened to see her older sister grow toward marriage, but putting a brave face on it. It kills me. Not that I've done anything remotely as good, mostly I do jokey things, get ideas from my kids. Nobody enjoys personification (or animism?) more than my little boy, for example, so I'm thinking of doing Dear Prudence as a song about a Pet Kiwi. (They don't live long in captivity, sadly.) Susan I'm sorry I haven't got back to you on Menc, but I haven't found my # yet. My kids used to do Kindermusic classes, and that may be something to look into also, though it's a bit programatic, we had one teacher who approached it more with her own spin than some others did. I know very much what you mean about the professionalisation of approaches--my wife is involved in arts education research. It's sometimes very frustrating, even horrifying for her as an artist (dance & drama), to see ideas lose their whole intention in the process of being formulated and defined. One can only hope that the teachers who wind up using it take it as a filing system of ideas, and don't let the mere intellectual armature take over the real process. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 30 Aug 02 - 04:09 PM Well, Fred...it appears you might enjoy the child's book, I Am the Cheese It is a about a retarded kid. |
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Subject: RE: Interactive tunes for kids From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 30 Aug 02 - 04:33 PM I'll have to look for it, could tie it in, maybe. "Pet Kiwi" only worked for brief grin from my kids, probably only do it if there's a request. Their taste may be outgrowing my goofier ideas. Or maybe I could do it with "Blue Moon"--there's a story I like called the nightgown of the sullen moon... you see, I was afraid to let my Kiwi stray I kept it too tightly by my side and then one sad day, Mom threw it away, and it died Blue Moon, you saw me standing alone without a pet of my own.... |
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