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BS: Mean meanings
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Sep 02 - 04:23 PM In German, "Dear" for expensive becomes "teuer" (TOY-er), meaning the same. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Sep 02 - 08:43 AM "Dear" or "not dear" is the general way people refer to the cost of things in any part of the Bruitish Isles I've been to. Probably more common than "expensive", and I donb't thinbk anyone would be likely to say "costly". The other way might be to say something is "a bit much", or "not too much" and so forth.
So Americans would be likely not to use "dear" or understand it? How about Australians? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Gurney Date: 07 Sep 02 - 06:12 AM When I lived in Plymouth (in Devon, glorious Devon) "My Dear" was a totally asexual term. A man could say "yes, my dear" instead of "Yes, pal/chum/cocker" without a hair turned. It was not wise to use the term elsewhere in the world. Another term they used there/then was 'A Party,' which meant 'a lady.' When a Cornish pal said "I'm going out with a party, my dear" it confused a midlander like me on several counts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:47 PM My younger daughter runs a boutique that sells new to antique items. She says that older Americans and Canadians use "dear", and also tourists from Britain. It seems to be dying out in North America because younger customers generaly say "Sheesh" or "Way too high." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: GUEST,Scabby Doug Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:22 AM "Dear" as in "expensive" is in everyday use in Scotland, and probably the rest of UK.
I understand the point, and I personally regret the loss of some meanings when a new one "takes over", but it's a living language, and when it doesn't have the capacity to change and grow, it'll start to die... Cheers
Steven |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Gurney Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:41 AM Dear Uncle_DaveO, I had to look up locution, which will give you some idea of my vocabulary. However, I did spend my youth preoccupied with Flats and Flammakins.... Chris. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:20 PM I think the suspicion here would be that people who thinks the solution to any problem is "to go out there and kick ass" are likely to end up falling on their arse. So I imagine if we used it as an adjective - which I don't think I've come across - that'd be the implication as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:00 PM Haven't heard "I couldn't be assed to do it over here yet. Not sure what you mean, McGrath, but "That's a real kick ass car" means a hot one with all the features (at least in the mind of the speaker). "He's a kick ass guy" means that he gets things done (used to be taking names and kicking ass, but the first part has disappeared). A sales team, or a football team, is told "to go out there and kick ass." I hope that it soon becomes a cliché. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Sep 02 - 01:47 PM I think generally anybody talking about "kicking ass" (and they'd probably pronounce it that way) would would be likely to do it in acontext of taking the piss out of the way Americans are understood to deal with problems.
But here's another expression used over here, and I wonder whether American use it or not - "I couldn't be arsed (or, for that matter, "assed") to do it", meaning "I couldn't take the trouble to do it". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie Date: 05 Sep 02 - 07:32 AM Banjer, "dear" meaning expensive is still alive 7 well in Ireland, and (AFAIK) in the UK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Banjer Date: 04 Sep 02 - 10:43 PM My mother-in-law came from Edinburgh at an early age, settling in Pennsylvania with her family. (the classic example of Scottish frugality she was) She would often times not buy something because the asking price, in her opinion, was 'too dear'. She passed away some ten years ago nad I have not heard 'dear' used in that context since. Was that and old use of what we now use to describe someone we love or is that term still in use in some parts of the world? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Sep 02 - 09:19 PM Two words in the process of disappearing are affect and effect. I am affected by the weather. What is the effect of drinking too much beer? Now, unfortunately, both are replaced by impact. Meaning has been lost. Small, or little, in the sense of acting shabbily (McGrath's mean), are still with us. I hadn't thought about the loss of distinction with regard to mean, but I think it is true. The newer meaning of mean- he plays a mean riff, rides a mean machine, etc., is even taking over the word vicious. "He's a real killer, really vicious," just means that he is damn good at what he does. He really kicks ass (arse?) - do they say that over there, McGrath, or is that (for the moment) still only North American? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Ebbie Date: 04 Sep 02 - 08:36 PM Interesting that we kept - at least in books- the term 'nicety' as in "to a nicety". I believe it comes under the meaning of preciseness. I seem to remember that 'nice' once meant 'fastidious'; if so, that would explain why a "nice little boy with nice little manners" would call for opprobrium- 'twouldn't be natural. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: GUEST,Glade Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM Once in a while a word's meaning goes in the opposite direction - from negative to positive. I'm thinking of 'nice' which now is used for 'pleasant' (if maybe a little bland). Now, as formerly, 'nice' can mean 'precise' as in "a nice distinction." But it was used as a term of contempt, I think in the 1600's and 1700's. I remember a line from a poem or book of that time: "a nice little boy with nice little manners." Glade |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: GUEST,Bman Date: 04 Sep 02 - 02:34 PM On the subject of synonyms for mean, in the stealing from the blind sense: I like little and small, but what about low? And you can rhyme it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Sep 02 - 02:06 PM Of course there are the Blue Meanies to act as guardians of the word for future generations. Noone is ever going to think those guys are Mean Moody and Magnificent. (Especially now that Maggie Thatcher, who used them as a role model, has taken a vow of silence - and nobody's likely to listen to her if she breaks it.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Mrrzy Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:46 PM "Mean" only meant stingy in English lit, but not in American parlance, I don't think. At least, I've never heard an American use it with that meaning. The one that changed out from under my feet is Edgy. Used to mean on edge, now means on THE edge. So, edgy is now a compliment, when it used to be a state of nerves. Made for some odd misunderstandings till a younger friend of mine explained... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Willa Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:51 PM The Pooka. I remember the three measures of average this way mode; the *most* common value/s in a group median; the *medium*-sized value in a group (if there are two central values add them and divide by 2, ie find the *mid-point*) mean; total of values divided by number of values (*mean* because it involves some working out!) So, for example for the group 1,3,3,3,5,5,6,7 the mode is 3, median 4 (halfway between 3 and 5) and mean 3.3 (33/10 ) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: michaelr Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:25 PM Those homosexuals have a lot to answer for! Before becoming "gay", they used to be "queer", which used to mean "weird" ("...and he puts the queer girl upon his knee"), which used to mean something supernatural... and just where did they get "dyke"? McGrath, I get your Orwellian reference, and I think George was quite right. It's a pet theory of mine that a lot of the trouble in the world today stems from the fact that not all languages can express all concepts alike. You cannot think a thought or formulate a concept if the language you know does not allow for it; and it is impossible to know whether you really understand (or are understood by) someone who thinks in another language. Great thread! Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: The Pooka Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:12 PM On the other hand, Mr. McGrath, I don't doubt that language--well, the King's English in any event (and possibly his Highway, too)--has become, generally speaking you understand, more **vague**. / *People* have become more vague. Now the question is, which is the cause and which the effect? / Whatever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: The Pooka Date: 03 Sep 02 - 09:57 PM greg stephens, we do. Those are Armour-Plated Smaughorns. Yes yes, I know I know, it's pronounced "Smowg". I don't care. He rose in fire, and flew away south toward Running River. Dat lizard bad, maaaan. He blow a mean torch fum him mouf. Somebody should start a thread on evil discursive digression. But somebody else would doubtless think that Means it's a Good thing. Kevin McG., while admittedly an inveterate (invertebrate?) language-butcher myself, I am not convinced that the alteration--the *expansion*--of meanings *necessarily* banishes the prior understandings to oblivion. "Gay", probably yes. Likely you'll be misconstrued nowadays if you say He's a Gay Blade. But I suspect that's a somewhat-special case, as implied above with reference to the *deliberate* conversion of the happy-go-lucky adjective into a rather stern politico-sexual-ideological modifier-and-or-noun. Somebody should start a thread protesting excessive hyphenation, incidentally. It's been noted herein that a number of words are colloquially employed to connote precisely the *opposite* of their (oldfashioned) dictionary definitions. This seems a common usage; perhaps arising from some common sense of irony. But we still know what "bad" and "evil" really mean. We continue to use them to express that. *I* don't think that the meaning of "mean" which you mean, kindly & most unshabby McGrath, is lost altogether. We all seem to recognize it, here. I *think* it can STILL be used, comprehensibly, in that sense. Though various substitutions hereinabove proffered are also good. I mean, bad. Somebody should start a threat protesting sentence fragments btw. (And initials too.) And parentheses. Language is dynamic. We can mourn this, sometimes rightfully. Boot we canna stop it lads. In a Mean Abode on the Shankill Road Lived a man named William Bloat... PS greg s: didn't the Stegasaurus have dragonback plates something like those? If so, there *must* be a word. Probably in Latin or something. Oh and Wolfgang, before I forget: what about the *Median*? Never did understand that. To me it's the grassy strip down the middle of the King's Highway. --Bad, Bad Leroy Brown, of the Mean Green Machine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Sep 02 - 08:42 PM I don't think it's a matter of bad meanings and good meanings.
In the case of "gay" there was a need felt by many homosexuals and others for a new word, because the existing words were loaded with various kinds of stigmatising and hurtful baggage, and this was met by reviving and expanding an older subordinate sense of the word "gay".
My understanding is that this was done intentionally, and in the expectation that some of the happy assocations of the word in its former primary meaning would be carried over.
Unfortunate this has had the side-effect that the former primary meaning of the word has been displaced, and become almost unusable. We've gained a new word, which has some useful consequences - but in return we have lost a useful and charming word which has no exact equivalent. Not a question of bad words or good words.
I think it would be better if people in need of a new word could adopt the approach demonstarated in Tye Meaning of Liff, and actually coin them fresh, from placenames and other sources, rather than colonising existing ones. But language doesn't seem to work like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 03 Sep 02 - 08:06 PM Okay, so that's the Gresham's Law of philology! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Mr Red Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:12 PM Nigel Rees - a word &/or phrase buff here in the UK - quotes thus bad meaning always drives out the good. Gay being a prime example. The current usage precludes others because of association which just fogs the communication. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Willa Date: 03 Sep 02 - 05:11 PM Amos and Clint. You both suggested small, and I would add 'petty'(clearly from the French equivalent) as a suitable replacement for 'shabby', though I don't think either is emphatic enough for McGrath's early example of stealing from a blind beggar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Ebbie Date: 03 Sep 02 - 04:48 PM When someone says something hurtful to someone, especially someone vulnerable or defenseless- saying something like "Why would anyone pay attention to anything you say?", we say to the speaker: "That was mean." What is the degree that we refer to? 'Thoughtless' is not reprimanding enough; 'vicious' is probably too planned an emotion... Does 'disrepectful', lack of respect, fit? Actually, I like the idea of telling the person that it was 'shabby' of him/her to say it, but I don't think it's quite the same thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 03 Sep 02 - 04:28 PM My family used to say "little" as a word meaning more or less "mean." Something like "small-souled, " maybe. As, "It was mighty little of him to do a thing like that." Clint Keller |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Glen Reid Date: 03 Sep 02 - 03:30 PM For most people and cultures, curse words, when directed at an individual, are usually considered insulting and MEAN. However, where I come from, if someone said to me "How 'n the hell ya doin' ya ol' bastard". I would feel a most heart felt and sincere greeting. Glen |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Sep 02 - 02:01 PM Of course words for physical things die or mve on when the physical things disappear. But what interests me is what happens when words for things you can't see or touch take on new meanings, and leave a gap behind. Words for moods, or ethical concepts.
As Wolfgang (I think) pointed out, different languages have words that can't be translated. But they can be borrowed. That is one reason why the death of a language is a terrible thing, because it means a way of seeing the world is lost. In a lesser way that happens all the time as language changes.
As language changes it can and should mean an expansion of the things we can say and feel and describe, and that is to be welcomed. But I think it's a good thing to be resistant to the kind of change that diminishes those kinds of things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 03 Sep 02 - 11:13 AM I think it was Gurney who said: "Although several have used it, I've not seen mean, as a synonym of intend/refer to." Gurney, do you "mean to tell me" you've really never seen that locution? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Ringer Date: 03 Sep 02 - 09:20 AM Were those words "liff" and "strage", Bagpuss? I think, McGrath, to return to your original post, if the change in meaning of a word does leave a gap that is generally recognised then either a new word will be coined, or an old word will move to fill it (probably the latter). If the gap is never filled, then I suggest not many people notice it or miss it. And concepts do disappear: who now knows the word for that strengthening tie between the scythe's handle and blade? Yet it was an everyday word to my Father who harvested with a scythe in his youth and kept thistles down with one in his dotage. But the loss of the word "grassnail" has not been noticed (and it wasn't a dialect word: I found an old Devonian - far from my Father's native Nottinghamshire - who knew it; but he had a collection of old farming tools). As an aside, has anyone else noticed that the tools one grew up with now seem to feature in museums and historical sections of agricultural fairs? Talk about policemen getting younger... And the word "gay", I notice from my children's slang, has taken another meaning: they now use it where I would use "bad" or "awful". Except that they no longer do it in my hearing: I resent the loss of this cheerful, charming, colourful, merry little word to its later connotations of homosexuality, and I still use it (when I remember my affectation) in its old sense, and never (no memory required there) in its newer ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: GUEST,Bagpuss Date: 03 Sep 02 - 08:18 AM If you are looking for a word for a definition that currently has no word, then don't forget to check The Meaning of Liff by Douglas Adams. I have adopted a couple of his words, despite the strage looks I get when I use them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: greg stephens Date: 03 Sep 02 - 08:14 AM Not that its anything to do with this thread, but why isnt there a word in English for those things that dragons have a row of sticking up along their backs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: GUEST,Spot the Dog Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:39 AM I have no input just enjoyed this thread. Found it facinating. Spot |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Gurney Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:16 AM Sorry Bert, you did post it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Gurney Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:08 AM Although several have used it, I've not seen mean, as a synonym of intend/refer to. Must have missed it. Whilst we're on words, when did Americans stop using the recognisable TYRE and start using the confusable TIRE? Is confusable a word? Where's Spellcheck? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:01 AM One problem with that extension of meaning for cowardly is that it would make it possible to describe the very same act as both cowardly and brave.
But of course the development of language is always throwing up contradictions like that - being "gay" doesn't stop people being sad at the same time; and for that matter being "sad" doesn't stop people being extremely happy. (I mean the mocking sense of "sad" - the one in which you might find some pillock referring to Morris dancers as "sad".) That kind of thing only matters when we get confused about which meaning is being useed for a word, and allow the sentiments that are appropriate to one meaning to carry over to another. And very often that is precisely what people do when they use a word in a shifted meaning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Wolfgang Date: 03 Sep 02 - 05:15 AM McGrath complains rightly about the losses (and I often join you there, in my tongue, for I am old enough to be aware of losses by change of meanings) and forgets (or at least doesn't mention) the gains by changes of meanings. No language has words for all concepts that make sense. Someone once remarked that there is no word (in English and German) to describe that state of mind and feelings when at night you lie awake and can't decide to go to the toilet. You are too sleepy to stand up and too (pissy) to be able to sleep. Everyone knows that feeling and we have no word for it. Same with (pissy). We have hungry, thirsty, horny, for different states of our bodies (minds), but we don't have (pissy) and (shitty) as words for the well known states when you say if I don't find a toilet soon, I'll explode. In German, we have words for hungry, thirsty, we have the opposite to hungry, but we have no opposite to thirsty, though the concept of not being thirsty is known even in Germany. I miss such a word. There are much more concepts than words in every language and everyone has to make do with the words that there are to describe something for which there is no single word. But in balance, changes of meaning are positive and there are much more concepts now for which there are new words or word meanings than decades ago (a look into old and new dictionaries will show you that). In some areas there might be deplorable losses, but there are more gains. A last example for a concept which formerly had no word for it (I might be mistaken here) and now has thanks to a change of word meaning. My newest Oxford dictionary acknowledges a new meaning of 'cowardly' (not yet of 'coward') in the context of act/attack: 'completely surprising and leaving the one attacked with no chance to retaliate or evade'. That was a concept in need of a word and an addiional meaning of one word has filled that need. This thread in my eyes has focused too much on losses. I am old emough to feel some losses too (in language and otherwise) but I'm not yet old enough to overlook the chances of the changes. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Mudlark Date: 02 Sep 02 - 11:20 PM As far as rhyming goes, as long as you add something like dispicable to mean no one an doubt your meaning...
The stranger was an lowdown cuss, dispicable and mean |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Bert Date: 02 Sep 02 - 11:16 PM I know exactly what you mean McGrath. (another meeaing) I used to know a pretty young girl whose name was Gay. I wonder how she feels today? Kinda like we would feel if suddenly, McGrath or Wolfgang or Bert became to mean homosexual. And everytime anyone said *Bert* everyone else would think *queer* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Amos Date: 02 Sep 02 - 11:15 PM Try "small". No one has preempted it and it can rhyme readily; it is also very telling when used well. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Sep 02 - 11:11 PM None of those words are as good for making rhymes as "mean". Still, so long as the concept doesn't gte lost with the word, that's what really matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: GUEST,misophist Date: 02 Sep 02 - 09:46 PM English is the most plastic, the most changing and changable language there is. I think. An educated Spaniard can read El Cid in the original, a Frenchman can read the Chanson de Roland, and so on. How many of us can read Chaucer with any accuracy, much less Beowulf. As long as our language changes as fast as it does, meanings will be slippery things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Amos Date: 02 Sep 02 - 08:13 PM Venal, mediocre, low-class, greedy, piggy, will also serve in part.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Mudlark Date: 02 Sep 02 - 07:17 PM McG of H....contemptible, ignoble, despicable all work tho none have the conciseness of mean....I also like your more common, everyday term, shabby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Willa Date: 02 Sep 02 - 07:08 PM Interesting thread, but I think that for your example even 'mean' would not be strong enough;perhaps despicable or contemtible would do. If I were using 'mean' in the 'shabby, dishonourable' sense, I think that the way in which I said it would rule out any idea that I meant it as a compliment! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Sep 02 - 05:06 PM I don't complain about the changes - but I just want some inbdication that the gaps left by the changes get filled in.
One of the themes in 1984 is the suggestion that if you can abolish words which convey ideas you can make it impossibe for people to have those ideas. That's what I have in mind here. Historically I think that the idea that some way of behaving is "mean", in the sense I'm talking about, has often been a much stronger disincentive than the idea that it it bad or wicked or even cruel.
If there really is no current word that has taken over this concept, does this mean that the concept itself becomes hard to recognise or express? And what does this do to people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:48 PM Okay, I get it. There really aren't too many words by themselves that can't be used interchangably by context. You think of a word like "evil" which one would think couldn't be interchanged but it can. "Man, that cat's guitar work is down right evil." Danged, there probably aren't too many words that can't be turned around. Even the word "nigger", which is thought to be such an offensive word, is a term of endearment in certain black circles. Think you've come up with a real stumper there, MeGrath. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Hawker Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:33 PM Another such word is WICKED! which meant evil and in league with the devil when I was a lass, now it mans great and impressive! Weird, weird world! Cheers, Lucy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mean meanings From: Wolfgang Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:32 PM Languages continuously evolve. Something always gets lost in that process but something also is gained. When my parents were young, 'geil' meant that a female animal was in heat and it was a fine word to use in public. When I was young 'geil' meant 'very hot, very horny' (of humans of both sexes) and was never to be used in public. Now my daughter uses it freely in the Kindergarten and it means 'great'. It is the priviledge of elder persons to complain about change of meanings and it is the priviledge of younger persons not to listen to them. Wolfgang |