BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 08:40 AM

troll:

Don't go lookin' for any credible reports in the US media about the protest because you won't find them. The US media is owned by the ruling class and is not this *liberal* monster that the conservatives have made it out to be.

Three weeks ago there was a demonstration in Washington, D.C. from Dupont Circle to Dick Cheney's house. There were at least 10,000 perople there and one paragraph on A-19 said a few hundred people had protested. Well, I was part of the "few hundred" that consumed 4 entire blocks, side walk to side walk and four lanes of road. That's four blocks. You can do the math.

Same *lack* of reporting was found through out the country, where demonstartions were heal in almost every major city in the US. This weekend there will be another mass demonstration in major cities but you probably won't hear much about them either. No different than Vietnam. It took 800,000 folks to march in the "Moritorium" to get any media notice.

And, yeah, those of us who beleive in a pro-human foriegn policy would like for the drum beaters to stop long enough for us to get a word in edgewise. All we get is a constant diet of woff, woff, woff with no relief.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Troll
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 07:22 AM

No Bobert, it's about everyone shutting up so that all anyone can hear is what YOU think.
You have the right to your opinion. Thats all.
The article was not bullshit. It simply said some things that your contingent would rather people didn't hear and, in the main, it was all true.
Maybe you don't choose to interpret the facts that way, but the facts are indisputable. Only the interpretations differ.
England mustered 500,000 (you say) to rpotest the way the US and Britain were handeling things. Good for them! Where are the "millions of voters" that are against US policy in this country. When exactly did they march on Washington to protest. Enlighten me. I must have missed that newscast.
Here in Japan, the interest is more on the North Korean kidnappings and the NK nuclear program. Perhaps you can put it all in perspective.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:34 PM

Why is America so envied? Because its 5% of the earth's population consumes 35% of the resources. Because it has the biggest and badest military. That's about it...

Lets keep this in some perspective here and not get into this *my-car-has-more-flag-decals-than-yours*spitting contest. George Walker Bush's folks out spent Al Gore's folks with lawyers 5 to 1 and sent into Florida paid goon squads to end democracy. Then George Walker Bush tunrned his back on the Middle East and let what progress that many administrations, including his father's, slip into never never land. And then 9/11.

And so like we were supposed to be surprised. Now we learn that the George Walker Busg administration might have known that 9/11 was going to occur but did nothing!

This ain't the USA that folks around the world respect. Quite the opposite, indeed.

Hey, I love the USA, but I ain't too wild about this guy. You crybaby Clinton haters had nothin on him except he got laid. Big deal. Your guy is gonna get a lot of folks killed. A lot!

And so, no, I ain't too proud of the "restraint". What restraint, for that matter? Yeah, exactly what target have we not hit?

This article is bull****.

500,000 of his countrymen showed up three weeks ago in London to say "We don't see it that way, thank you" and another few hundred thousand will be back this Saturday.

This ain't about liberals or conservatives. Its about right and wrong. Its about a foriegn policy that is inclusive and comapssionate. Its about shutting up long enough to hear what the rest of the world thinks...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:10 PM

Well, actually, Doug, you have a point. We have been a tad unfair. We should always be happy to applaud Mr. Bush when his turn with the family brain cell comes around and he actually uses it. Weasel thinking is pandemic in the political world, and if it allows him to maintain a modicum of dignity as he backs out of what he suddenly realizes was a lousy idea, then so be it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:21 PM

Oh its the thread that never ends
it just goes on and on my friends
Some people started posting to it
not knowing what it was, but now
they keep on posting to it, simply
just because, it is the thread that
never ends.........

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 02:02 PM

As for bitching on both sides, the thing is there is a consistent thread of weaselry in the man that is part of his political way of being. I bitch about him because I consider him a self-serving opportunist. I know 'em when I see 'em cuz I have that teeshirt already. But I outgrew it a good long way before I got to be his age. But then, I didn't have the advantages of his education. :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:53 PM

You folks bitch when Bush rattles the sabre, then you bitch because he puts it back in the sheath. Somehow I don't think there is ANY pleasing you folks. :>)

Amos: thanks for posting that article. I hope Bobert, L.H., and other America blamers will read it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:43 AM

Amos, it's one of those essential skills if you're going to be a politician. It's called "weasel thinking."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:20 AM

That Georgie musta learned tap dancing from his Dad. Today he is saying that what he meant by "regime change" wasn't knocking out Saddam, just changing his behaviour! "Well, it's a change, isn't it??"

Wodda furless leader!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:38 AM

Tony:

Spoken like a good Republican, uncowed, unashamed, and uncivilized.

Good think you had your tongue in your cheek, I reckon!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Venthony
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:42 AM

Dear folks,

Sorry. I've been away and busy, and, Bob, I apologize for not sending you your book yet. Soon, I promise.

As for the proposed war, even as a good Republican, I can't work up much enthusiasm for it. I admit that the President is a little too out in front. If you're a leader, once in a while you have to look back and make sure somebody is following.

Even if Saddam nukes us (the U.S., that is), I think we should just make like John Wayne and take the first punch (horrible as it may be) then rally whatever is left -- which will be a lot -- and kick some serious Iraqi butt.

And after -- after all that needless destruction and loss of life, and turning of Iraq into a whole in the sand -- we should go on record, once and for all, and declare the U.N. an empty, hollow and utterly corrupt shell of hypocrites, vipers and whited tombs. The WE should nuke IT.

Best wishes for dry ammunition,
Tony

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 12:31 AM

Just about says it all Amos. Nice piece of journalism, maybe there is hope yet...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 11:23 PM

Of interest, a lone voice standing out in a liberal English paper last month, now being circulated by email:

Just a word of background, for those of you who aren't familiar with
the UK's Daily Mirror. This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is
normally not supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.

SHAME ON YOU AMERICAN HATING LIBERALS
Tony Parsons
Daily Mirror September 11, 2002

ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the
mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the
pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's
mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like
garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so
calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one
thing - nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: the victims were
truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as
America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last
year. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this
country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much
happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to
me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We
are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a
century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as
their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of
ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens
of countries - were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics.
Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on
the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers,
somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives, and children, some
unborn.

And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to
blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul
or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-
American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the
Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives
suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.

Remember, remember.

Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.

Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.

Remember, remember - and realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex...

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.

That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already
being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of
9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the
face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these
wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or
some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the
loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire
Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, oh mighty one!

Remember, remember, September 11.

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget.


This does not reflect my own views, in many places. But I think it is a voice woirth hearing.

Best regards,

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Tiger
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 10:25 PM

I sure am glad I haven't contributed to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 09:46 PM

Your right, Don, we got a lot of smoke and mirrors stuff going on right now while Junior tries to pay off those folks who bought his selection.

Ya' ever wonder why just about everything that he's trying to do favors those with the money? Sure, today just two weeks before the election, he gets up and says that drug companies shouldn't be allowed to use their smoke and mirrors to screw the working class but when you strip off the glitter from what he proposes, you have business as usual: 30 month patent protection for the wealthy phamacutical companies.

Then you look at privitization of Social Security? Hmmmmmm? "We're gonna fix this problem by putting a few leeches on it and allow them to such the blood. That ought to make it better..." Hmmmmmmmm?

Yeah, Don , you're right. This is a smoke screen to keep tghe real issues from surfacing. And it probably will work for the the 2002 election. And I *hope* it does. There are no gains without pains and it's time to bring on the pain. The repubs *unchecked* will destroy themselves in greed. There will come a time when the working class see them for what they are. Greedy! Not that the Dems are too much better mind you but at least they make the effort to make you think that you arn't gonna get another screwing from the ruling class...

So, as far as I'm concerned, vote Repub. The sooner that they can have their greedy way and not have Clinton to blame for their screw ups, the sooner that they will go by the wayside as a party that used to be part of a "two party system". Ha!

Now, what do ya' think of them apples, Dougie?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 05:52 PM

Doug, I don't just read the headlines, I keep up on all the news.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 04:32 PM

Don, my friend, where on earth do you come up with these wild ideas?

:>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:39 PM

The fact, GUEST,Forum Lurker, is that we can't.

More and more I am convinced that the whole thing is for the purpose of buttressing up a shaky administration. It's also for the purpose of diverting everybody's attention to our "external enemy(s)" so the Bush administration can slip a lot of unpopular programs in under the radar while nobody's looking. Privatization of Social Security (turn it over to the mercies of Wall Street), attacks on Roe v. Wade (a woman's right to chose), reducing the powers of the SEC (in the aftermath of the Enron, etc. scandals!!), undercutting environmental laws (opening everything to for the exploitation of private corporations), and enough other stuff to just about turn your stomach!

Not to mention attempts to expand the power of the Executive Branch beyond what the Constitution permits, and the all-out assault on the Bill of Rights.

The biggest enemy is right here at home!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:01 PM

The question still remains, what gives us the right, musch less the duty, to interfere with Iraq? Yes, we believe that they may be developing nuclear weapons. The United States is in possession of one of the world's largest nuclear arsenals, and has the capacity to deliver them to anywhere in the world. Does that mean that the rest of the world should pursue a policy of regime change for us? The United states has a longer history of offensive action than Iraq. We have, in the past year, deposed the government of a sovereign nation. Does this make us a threat to world security? Iraq has not made any direct threats to us, while the American government has already passed a resolution to allow us to engage our military forces into Iraq, without provocation. How can we justify our aggressive stance?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 10:40 AM

Beg to differ, there, Doug buddy. The world is in custody of those running it today and gets turned over at the changing of the watch; but 100 years from now, you are just as likely to be one of the recipients. You don't get to just jump off the old Wheel just 'cuz you're a little fed up.

Wish it were different, but I am pretty confident it ain't. I. M. H. O.! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 02:57 AM

Now Bobert, watch your blood pressure. You really think we are going to take the Senate back? Goody! However, Tom Daschle on the Fox Sunday News today hinted that the Republican Senator from Rhode Island, Senator Chaffee, might become a turncoat and become a Democrat. He didn't say he would, but hinted that he might. So all may not be lost, my friend.

I just don't want you to max out. Keep in mind, as sincere as you are ...and I know you are, that a hundred years from now it won't matter much to us.

*BG*

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 02:56 AM

Hi Bobert,

From one of your psots above you attribute the moderation in the language used in the draft resolution down entirely to the efforts of the anti-war movement?

Look back through some of mine Bobert - If there was one thing I have never doubted about this situation, it's been that all the TALK to date has been to ensure that the US Government can go into any discussions in a position to negotiate to get what it sees as being a workable solution. Weapons inspectors in, working to a new resolution that will deter any attempt at interference by the Iraqi authorities. So far your man has done a good job of getting a long way towards that goal. Following your advice and preferred course of action, Bobert, the Iraqi invitation to allow the return of the weapons inspectors would still be outstanding and the UN would still be sitting, "Thumbs in bums and minds in neutral".

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 10:07 PM

Well, GUEST, you just go on over and get this thing finished off but ya' can leave my boney Wes Ginny butt behind, thank you. Saddam got set up the last time by the US's mixed messages to him and now the Iragis and a lot of Amercian kids are being set up.

Like you really believe that Saddam is a threat? Really? Like, for real?

No wonder you gotta wear that bag over your head. I would too if I believed a desperate politican who is more concerned about getting some more of his fraternity elected than tha lives of a lot of innocent people.

That blood will not be on my hands, GUEST, but I'm not too sure about yours...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 08:37 PM

Bobert, Bush is not my guy, neither was Bush senior, Clinton was a joke, and please dont say MY side is winning. I dont want war anymore than you or anyone else does. But in the case of Iraq the first thing I said when Bush snr said enough, was "in ten fucking years we will have to go in and finish this". I also said that "it will seem like a victory in the eyes of other Arabs", that after facing off with 20+ nations he still commands a military force and his borders and government are intact. Unfortunately, I am in the line of fire during this mess. Enough said on my part, please carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 08:18 PM

Hey, GUEST, Doug is not reviled and I can't think of too many folks, if any, in the rival camp that don't respect him.

Now GUEST's on the other hand? Well they are a different story. They lurk in the shadows and fire away much like the "sniper" in the D.C. area.

And lastly, GUEST, in the big scheme of things your side is winning big. You got your guy in the White House. You got your tax breaks. You're gonna get your war. You got your John Ashcrofts, your Dick Cheneys, your Condi Rices. You're probably gonna get your Senate in a couple of weeks because your Commander in Thief is playing Iraq and terrorism like a fine tuned violin and your voters are so preoccupied trying to make a living that they don't have time to realize that your guys are screwing them. Yeah, you got it all.

Yeah, at least Doug hangs in there and ya' don't hear him crying do you? And you won't!

Get over it.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 08:11 PM

Well, Guest, then that would only leave hotspots of terrorist activity like Florida to provide those "havens." The problem with rhetoric like claiming state support of terrorism based on the presence of terrorists neglects the fact that countries like the US and Germany are also "havens."

And the #1 arms dealer in the world is the good old US of A.

Let's go bomb the hell out of Florida! We won't mean to kill the citizens of Florida, of course, but they'll be "liberated" in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 07:42 PM

I used to be a "name" I just got tired of the bullshit from this forum. I prefer to be a reviled Guest, than a reviled member Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 05:21 PM

Yes, Amos, Saddam is a real humanitarian. Just imagine, if a vote was taken, he probably would be the most popular person in Iraq even without holding guns to the heads of the voters. Provided the voters were former prisoners of course.

Guest: you are right, of course, but your message would be so much more credible were you to attach a name to "Guest."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 03:37 PM

Yeah, GUEST, you're right. Just go on over there, kill about 50,000 Iraqis and that certainly should teach those Saudi terrorists a lesson. Darned good thinking!

And just in case some of them Iraqis were thinkin' of gettin' into the terrorism game this'll teach em' fir sure.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 02:44 PM

Bobert, Terrorists do not completely rely on state support to conduct their operations, but they do need some states to provide safe havens, and money laundering services. Saddam is one of the few states who supports Bin Laden with impunity; and is most probably the only place he would be safe to arrange his campaign in.

Work the rest out for yourself. If Bush doesn't destroy the infrastructure of support, then Saddam can supply biological, nuclear, chemical warfare supplies to the kind of terrorists who would "deliver" them in person. The people of Iraq are desperately in need of liberation from this dictator. The war is not aimed at them directly, but they stand to lose the most in any military action. The United Nations are proven impotent and unwilling to take action, they will not enforce anything, any action taken will be up to the USA in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM

He let the prisoners out? Interesting. Saddam is a most unusual fellow, and that's for sure.

By the way, I read in an article a few days ago about a recent celebration in Baghdad which resulted in the deaths of 17 people (and injuries to many more) by stray bullets fired into the air which came down here and there in the city and hit people. This was a whole lot of bullets. It turns out, according to this article, that there are an enormous number of Iraquis, many civilians included, who have kalashnikovs and other automatic weapons in their possession. When they are in a celebratory mood they fire them into the air, which is a tradition going way back with Arabic peoples, by the way.

So...the thing that struck me was this. With all those ordinary Iraquis packing modern firepower...and with Bush being so hopeful that some ordinary Iraqui will shoot Saddam for him...ummm...

Well, something's a little odd about it, that's what I think. I wonder what the real mood of the people is over there? I suspect one would have to live there a while to find out, and I am not willing to volunteer to do so. I know one thing...when a country is under attack or threat of attack by foreign forces, people tend to "rally round the flag".

Bush's hopes for the "one bullet" solution may be a bit unrealistic. Then, of course, there are all those Saddam-lookalikes to stand in for him and take the shot.

Now...how would it be seen if people in some other country started making official announcements in their media openly encouraging American citizens to shoot President Bush? Think about it. Banditry is banditry...doesn't matter from where it emanates.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 12:11 PM

Nice of you to include the IMOH Amos.
:>)
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 10:18 AM

D'ja see that Saddam has now emptied all his prisons? General amnesty for all prisoners; murderers only on condition of agreement by victim's families, and theives have to work out a pay-back plan. Everyone getting out of jail free.

This man has a bizarre sense of public relations, I must say. Dramatic, but in the sort of 2-dimensional way of a Babar storybook.

He may be stocking up on cannon fodder. Or maybe he wants the real estate? Or is he trying to show how big-hearted he is? Win sympathy? Thumb his nose at Bushie? Maybe Bushie could do something similar here to celebrate staying in the White House thanks to the unanimous surge of amazing apathy on the part of the American people...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 10:09 AM

God save us one and all.

I'll tell you this much -- if Mister Bill and his Wild Tool were swept back into ofice tomorrrow the maerket would be turning around and heading for 9000 again within 72 hours, IMHO.

All this gunslinging is good for gunslingers and their suppliers, but I do not think it is good for other parts of business.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 02:57 AM

Well, I don't know about that, Bobert, but I hope he's there for awhile. Say eight years. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 06:30 PM

Well, Junior doesn't like sharing. I tried to get in the White House to begin working on some of these problems that he's been sweeping under tha carpet, and he had a couple of real tough looking cops keep me out. Can you believe that, Dougie? Well, Hard to be President when the other side doesn't play nice. Hey, don't believe me, just ask Al Gore. He'll etll ya...

I'm beginning to think that Junior plans on keeping the White House for himself until he's old and gray.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 06:21 PM

Naw, Bobert. I seriously doubt it. You folks would probably bitch about the brand of tea he brewed or something.

Whatever happend to you taking over the office Bobert? You had a Cabinet forming and all that stuff but I haven't read anything about it in the newspaper! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 05:18 PM

Well, Doug, yeah to the 'tea and cookies". They're less dangerous and far less expensive. But not in the White House but at a neutral site with some other major players there too so that some other issues could be discussed. That would seem like a *reasonable* and *prohuman* first step. And ya' know what, Bush would instantly go from the guy the worlds hates to the guy much admired by the world.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 03:36 PM

Nope, Amos, I have not proof Bush is right. You got proof he's wrong? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 02:25 PM

Well, Doug, you seem pretty sure that nukes are on his agenda.

Is this a characterization of his plan that you inherited whole-cloth from our oratorical Leader, or from hard facts somewhere?

If the latter, please share. Have I missed sompn?

If the former, you're suggesting we launch massive man-killing machinery based on the oratory of someone you wouldn't really want to buy a used car from? Or a used judiciary?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 02:18 PM

So, Bobert? You would invite Saddam to the White House for tea and cookies? Perhaps ask him what it would take for the U. S. to make him happy? Tell him to go ahead and make his nukes if that's what he wants because you are confident he will never use them? Hmmmm. Follow Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton's pattern for creating the situation we have in NK?

And you are glad for the wait, huh? I'm sure Saddam is too! It gives him more time to produce more WMD, maybe even THE bomb!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 07:16 PM

Yeah, GUEST, like I'm real worried that Saddam is gonna kill me. See, that's the kind of argument that just isn't getting too many folks attention anymore. It's become old and tired. Milliona and millions of folks see thru it. It's like a bad song that gets too much air play.

See, GUEST, I'm not saying "do nothing" but I am saying do something that is bold, out of the box, is inclusive and carries mankind a little further down the road. And war ain't it. And millions have figured it out all ready and we're just waiting for the pack of the pack to catch up....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 07:07 PM

Bobert, all he has to do is wait till more of you ordinary people get killed en mass and then you can vote him out for his negligence eh?
Cant win can he?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 06:46 PM

Like I said, the boy is "trainable". But the good money is still the reality that Bush wants *his war* so bad he's gonna getr it. Yeah, millions of US voters have taken the time and courage to tell Bush "No", so he's just had to accept a longer *check list*.

The conditions that he wants Iraq to meet related to inspections are very unreasonable, that actually may require Iraq to accept US troops on their soil. Well, Saddam may not be the brightest bulb either but he knows of the Trojan Horse.

But it's nice that Bush has had to reload, so to speak. It gives the anit-war folks more time to mobilize and who knows, by the time Bush has a check mark next to everythin on the list, the anit-war movement may grow to 1972 levels and that would make it real hard for Junior to get his war...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Troll
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 06:24 PM

Apparently Bush has agreed to language in the resolution now up for UN approval that would be more acceptable to Russia and France. This means that he's giving a little to made the deal work.
I believe that's called smart, diplomatic bargaining.
Amazing.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 12:49 PM

I'm sure there are difficulties and complications which make the life of a terrorist far from simple, fortunately. But there's nothing insuperable in that checklist Teribus came up with. The basic technology and skills involved in that kind of thing are in truth pretty basic, and level of resources needed are very low compared to what is needed to keep a conventional armed force operational.

The most important element in any terrorist campaign is personnel. The most important element in any counter-terrorist campaign is finding ways of cutting off the supply of volunteers. The most disastrous thing which a counter-terrorist campaign can do is to behave in a way that increases the supply and motivation of volunteers.

The bottom line is, anyone who thinks that, by depriving terrorists of the backing of some friendly government, you can guarantee to shut them down, is being extremely optimistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 12:19 PM

There is always a basic mindset and agenda underlying what any given person says in an argument, and it's usually fairly clear to those who strongly agree or disagree with him. What is most enlightening is uncovering one's own basic agenda, re-examining it in the light of experience...and seeing if it is (1) positive and (2) useful. If not, time to change the agenda.

This is much more challenging than hurling abuse and derision at the differing agendas of others or calling them "idiots".

But it's not nearly so gratifying to the ego, is it?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 03:41 AM

Kevin,

"September 11 just needed a few airline tickets, and some boxcutters, and in this instance a few people with a minimal amount of flight training, which had been supplied by commercial organisations."

It was 18 months to two years in the planning Kevin.

"Finance? Traditionally that's been largely stuff like bank robberies and protection money. The analogy is more with the Mafia than with a regular army. Self financing."

Go this route Kevin and you will set off at least four trip-wires that I can think of, think of the interfaces required to make this work and keep it secret. One of the reasons those involved with September 11th pulled it off was because the finance they were using was "clean". Back tracks subsequent to 11th September have made this even more difficult to achieve.

"Training is done as and when it is needed, and can effectively be invisible when you are dealing with maybe half a dozen people at a time. "Safe Havens" might be helpful, but they aren't really needed."

Really Kevin! Amazing! love to know how someone can be effectively invisible while learning the bomb makers trade. Guess people never needed those training camps in Libya, Lebanon and Afghanistan - perhaps they were more social clubs than anything else.

"The essential thing is a reservoir of sympathisers in the wider community."

Oddly enough Kevin for the operations you predict that Al-Qaeda will embark upon, using your "invisible seperate cell" philosophy, the reservoir of sympathisers in the wider community hinder rather than help as they constitute the most serious security risk (Best example of this that I know of was Northern Ireland - I am not talking about informers, purely observation and inadvertant slips by the reservoir of sympathisers in the wider community).

From what you say above you seriously under-rate the work done by various counter-terrorist organisations - You shouldn't, certainly the potential terrorists don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:25 PM

Amos: My apologies to one and all who believe, when guest referred to idiots he/she was referring to him/her, because I do not think those who do not believe the way I do here on the Mudcat are idiots. I just believe there is little more to be said from my POV. It's all been said.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush, Iraq, and War: PART EIGHT
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 08:31 PM

Lemme know if it happens, Don.

DougR, you may not like arguing with people who are idiots -- but at least we here who speak under our own names give you a reliable sense of continuity. I think there is nothing so "idiotic" as making vilifications from an anonymous handle.

A