What the heck did Burns mean by...

Subject: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:53 PM

In the song 'Auld Rob Morris' the last verse is thus...

O had she been but of a laigher degree,
I then might have hop'd she wad smil'd upon me!
O, how past descriving had then been my bliss,
As now my distraction no words can express!

O.K., What the heck did he mean by the word DESCRIVING?

I am clueless...ttr

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:09 PM

The glosary in my Burns defines it.
Descrive - To describe.
Laigher - lower

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:09 PM

Describing. He uses the same word in the song "Awa', Whigs, Awa'".

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:57 PM

GOOD WORK guests! I was sure hoping that wasn't the answer, yet in the back o my mind...

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: masato sakurai
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:11 AM

Not that Bunrs couldn't spell. The word seems to have comes from Middle English descrive(n), which, according to my etymological dictionary, is from Old French descrivre. The present-day describe is directly from Latin describere.

~Masato

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:13 AM

"Scrive" is a Lallans word meaing to scratch or mark or to write easily and copiously or a piece of writing. However, whether this word can have "de" placed in front of it who knows?

"Describe" in Lallans is "descrieve" (this is a dialectic spelling).

With Burns he sometimes seems to be a law unto himself liguistically. Neither really fits well, but that is the beauty of poetic license....

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:33 AM

Perfectly good Middle English word, as Masato said; retained longer in Scotland than in England. V often mutates into B; compare, for example, scrivener and scribe.

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:42 AM

Just a thought---the "Auld Alliance" seems to have left some French influence in the Scots language. The word under discussion could be one instance. Other examples are "grauvit" [cravat], a scarf or tie; "Tassie"[ une tasse] , a cup . There is even a suggestion somewhere that the famous Haggis comes from the French "hachis" meaning hash, mince or mince meat.

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 04:39 AM

Just pointing out that there's been a Scots Glossary here at Mudcat for a year or two with about 7,500 entries, and yes 'descrive' is in there.

Look under PermaThreads for Scots Glossary. I've also recently added an Australian Glossary as well. Not sure where it's listed at the moment.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 05:26 AM

If you listen attentively, you'll notice that the word "disturb" is pronounced as if it was spelt "Disturve" by a substantial percentage of the English (and possibly Scottish?) population.The change from b to v is very widely observed historically, but this is an interesting example where you can actually hear the two versions coexisting in the same population.

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 07:47 AM

Now back to the serious stuff: What exactly is a curly pow?

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 07:53 AM

Sinsull
click here

Regards

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Pied Piper
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:54 AM

Hi Thomas the Rhymer
As a speeker of Northern English I have very little difficulty uderstanding Burns.
Were do you hail from.
      All the best PP.

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:00 AM

Sinsull, don't let Spaw hear you mention CPs!

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:23 PM

Hey there Pied Piper (where'd all these kids come from?), I'm in Seattle, Wa, USA. I usually 'get it' right off... The spelling thing does not confuse me, cause I tend to be more Phonetic than 'correct'... Burns makes great good sense to me oftener that not, but this word and its conext has been throwing me off while I'm learning the song. I'd get to the last verse and the 'mystery' of meaning would confuse my need to sing... and I'd start laughing... ttr

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:31 PM

I'd have assumed it meant describe in writing, as against speech. If it doesn't it ought to, because that'd be a useful word.

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:34 PM

People have a tendency to refer to old word use as dialect. These words may appear in dialectical speech, but is it correct to refer to an old and hono(u)rable word as dialect just because it has passed out of common use?
The OED says that sometime in the 16th century, the latinate describe began to replace descrive except in Scotland. The word apparently is descended from Old French descrivre. Are the Normans to blame?

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 04:34 AM

An interesting closing query, Guest. Norman influence on the language --and pronunciation---is evident all over. Quite a large proportion of the Clans are Norman in origin. Colquhouns, Bruces , Frasers, Menzies are all Norman clans. [ I am of the opinion that the common Scottish pronunciation of Menzies as "Mingus" is a direct result of local attempts at French pronunciation].

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: JulieF
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 07:33 AM

Fou is scots dialect in drunk ( as in 'Getting Fou ' ) whereas Fou/Folle is the French for mad.   I always thought there was a connection.

All the best
Julie

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Pied Piper
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 08:25 AM

Not from Ercildoune then Thomas.
   I'm based in the Peoples Free Democratic Republic of Eccles, near Salford (Dirty old town) about 5 miles from the centre of Manchester UK.
    All the best PP.

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: weerover
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 02:17 PM

Boab,

I think you'll find that the "z" in "menzies" was originall a letter that looked something like a modern "z" but was pronounced more like a "y" - I think it's called a "yogh", but don't have my Chambers Dictionary to hand.

You'll find it in other Scots names - McFadzean (pron. McFadyen), Culzean (pron. Cullayn) Castle

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 04:18 PM

Just to complicate the origin even more, it's probably related to the current German usage cf "Shreiben" to write. Might it have come to all through the Saxons?

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Robin
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 04:38 PM

For "descrive", v ... the OED2(3) gives a range of possiblities.

OED assigns Burns to 2. -- describe;   but I'd go for 4. -- descry.

Either meaning could fit the sense of the passage.

OED -- defs. of "descrive":

Obs. exc. Sc.

[a. OF. descriv-re (13th c.), later descrire, full stem descriv- (mod.F. décrire, décriv-) = Pr. descriure, Cat. descriuer, It. descrivere:—L. In the course of the 16th c. gradually superseded (exc. in Sc.) by the latinized form describe.

   Descrive was in ME. reduced to descrie (descry v.2), and thus confused in form, and sometimes in sense with descry v.1 Hence descrive also occurs as a form of the latter.]

   1. To write down, inscribe; to write out, transcribe.

   b. To write down in a register, enrol; cf. Vulg. Luke ii. 1 ut describeretur universus orbis.

   2. = describe v. 2.

including: - 1785 Burns To W. Simpson xvi, Let me fair Nature's face descrive.

3. a. To represent pictorially or by delineation; also absol. b. To draw geometrically (figures, etc.). c. To trace out or pass over (a definite course). Cf. describe v. 3–6.

   d. To map out, set forth the boundaries of.
   (But also often including the general sense 2.)

¶4. = descry v.1 [Cf. etymol. note above.]

Robin

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:00 PM

Bingo!!!! Robin, may I call you Robin?... I was still breaking into distracting chuckles... untill now. I am finally going to be able to sing 'Auld Rob Morris'... assuming of course that the words will take... I really like this tune! Cheerio! ttr

Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by...
From: Robin
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:38 PM

"Bingo!!!!"

Glad to help.

"
Robin, may I call you Robin?...
"

Of course -- and I'll call you True Thomas. I always respect people who take the low road, and consort with the Queen of Faery.

"
I was still breaking into distracting chuckles... untill now. I am finally going to be able to sing 'Auld Rob Morris'... assuming of course that the words will take... I really like this tune! Cheerio! ttr
"

For what it's worth, the standary edition of Burns is in three volumes, edited by James Kinsley (Oxford). He may have a note to the poem, and I think he includes tunes.

Robin