Singing: hold vowel or consonant?

Subject: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: JennieG
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 01:33 AM

Hi all,

Something that puzzles me when singing, when a note is held, is whether to hold the vowel or consonant. Consonants can sound very sibilant but some vowels can sound screechy. For example - if the last word in a line is "west" - should you sing "weeeest" or "wesssst"? "Raaaain" or "rainnnnn"? It's probably personal preference but is there a right way and a wrong way?

Cheers

JennieG

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:14 AM

Think of it this way... The vowels are the "clothesline and the consonants are the clothes pegs". Composers who have the singer in mind always make good use of vowels. The voice tends to sing on the vowels and there are proper tongue placements for each vowel sound. Once these are learned and practiced than singing becomes a joy for the singer and the listener. Hope this helps,

LL

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: JennieG
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:40 AM

Thanks for that advice LL - that is what I felt - I have heard singers hold a long note on a consonant and it really grates on my ear but I don't know why. Probably getting crabby in my old age *grin*

Cheers (with coffee this time)

JennieG

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 04:57 AM

Never took any singing lessons, but....
seems to me that holding the vowel sounds better, but I do notice a lot of Irish singers hold the consonant. Maybe it is just environmental.
Maybe folksingers should do like Mr. Sinatra, "My Way."
Trained singers simply don't sound folksy to me, which is not to say that I don't recognise their quality.
Regards, Chris.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 05:33 AM

I wonder what Mrs Lemon's take on this is.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 05:40 AM

In classical singing it is the vowels that should be held, and you should "sing through the consonants" in order to maintain a smooth tone.
In any singing there has to be a compromise between beautiful sounds and comprehensibility. That compromise comes at different places for different styles.
For the majority of folk songs it is the text that is the most important thing - and so the compromise point will reflect that fact. In such cases there may well be instances where it is more appropriate and expressive to hold the consonant. Beauty of tone can be sacrificed in favour of telling the story - and this effect can be a big part of the flavour and emotion of the song.
The classical style is more weighted toward formal tonal beauty, and well written songs will allow for the fact that vowels must be modified etc - and will ensure that the important words and concepts of the song are carried across in the places where the text is more accessible - and the less audible text will be understandable by context.
In both styles the issue is one of communication, and the transfer of information. So it is horses for course as to how you chose to do it in any one song/situation.
Singing is not equivalent to speaking - ie it is not just speech on different pitches. Vowels are formed by the relationship of certain resonant peaks, and this is why some vowels are easy on a particular note (ie the singer is producing the required resonances)whilst others are very difficult on the same note (ie the required resonances are not there). So you will find that some vowels are easier to hold than others - which (in nonclassical singign) might be a good reason for holding on a consonant if that prooves easier.

Kris

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 06:02 AM

Listen to Frank Sinatra singing "I get a kick out of you". He sings (if that's the right word) the "F" of "terrifically" for an amazing amount of time, finishing of with "icly". I'm afraid this just makes me laugh.

    All the best PP.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM

Here's a little exercise for to experiment with. Try singing each of the following syllables for about five seconds eah - or choos a random sentence from a book or newspaper. The actual tune isn't important, so try "The boy stood on the burn ing deck pick ing his nose like mad"

I'm sure you'll quickly find that singing through the vowels and accentuating the final syllable makes much more sense. The positive side effect is that people can actually understand what you are singing. I like folk because of its storytelling nature. The performer is often wasting his/her time if their diction isn't reasonable 0r (at a tangent) the guy on the sound desk muddies the whole sound by adding reverb.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 08:48 AM

You have to close your mouth for most consonants. I do believe that in some styles, the consonants ARE held. I can recall hearing someone finishing up a line with lovely ornamentation on an "N." The problem is that all the air then comes out your nose. Some styles are supposed to sound nasal and some aren't.

When you sing vowels, the air keeps flowing completely unimpeded. You can control the volume and even the - I don't know if there's a word for it - character of the note. Try singing an E and try moving things around - you can smile, open your mouth more, smile, close your mouth a bit so more of the air/sound comes out your nose, open your throat more. You don't have that control with a consonant.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 08:59 AM

Sing what you feel.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 09:39 AM

Yes, by all means. But if you want to be heard clearly, you'll get more mileage out of holding vowels -- it seems it is much clearer than with even softer consonants like "m" or "l".

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 09:41 AM

There are ways to shape the vowels so they don't screech, too.

~S~

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Dani
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 09:56 AM

Well, yes, sing what you hear! I have no classical or choral training WHATsoever. But the one choral piece I did sing in, I remember clearly the director telling us, when stretching out the word "mansions" that if you don't stretch out the "o", you have nowhere to go - you can only get so much mileage out of "n", and none at all out of the "s".

Dani

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 10:16 AM

My daughter is a trained soprano and prefers to hold the vowels. So everybody understands her better when singing.
From the linguist's point of view: Both voice and vowel are derived from the Latin stem *voc- = speaking, calling. Isn't it obvious that the hold out vowels sound better with a singing voice?

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Janie
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 12:17 PM

I think definitely the vowels. I don't know how well I can convey this, but I'll try. Even on traditional ballads or what I call "mountain" singing, which is indeed very nasal, it is generally the vowels that are sustained. The consonants provide some wonderful opportunities for ornamentation, but you really don't hear someone sustaining nnnnnnnnnnnnn. You hear something like nnaa, or you hear the consonant turn into a humming vowelled drone.

Janie

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:03 PM

No matter what kind of singing you do, classic, folk, or whatever, tone is sustained on the vowels. Consonants interrupt the tone and should be hit quickly and crisply (so people can understand the words). It's impossible to "sing" (i.e., sustain any kind of tone) on most consonants. T, D, P, B, K, Ch, maybe others. S comes out a hiss and is hardly euphonious, R is not much better. F, V, and Z, same deal. Try singing a G, J, L, Q, or W and see how far you get. How do you sing an X? Nasal consonants like M, N, and NG will sustain a tone, but might clear your sinuses at the same time.

With rare exceptions, when singing (or talking, for that matter) consonants are "touch and go." Unless you have some sort of speech impediment, it's hard to do it otherwise.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:44 PM

And on blended vowels, like "they", you sing theh.......ee, not thay-a-a-a-a-a-a-ay.

Rain = Reh...................een, not ray-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-ane.

Flower = Flah.............oh..oor, not flowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwr.

Look for the ah, eh, ih, oh, uh.

In fact the consonant comes on the beginning of the NEXT beat, not the end of the one where you are singing the vowel(s).

Juh....stsih....nglike this:

You are my suh- n'shi, nMy only suh- n'shine....

Also, if singing harmony or in choral form, you don't have to sing thih...............ssssssss with multiple, uncoordinated sibilances. You can all sing thih.......ts. Out in the audience they don't hear the t-- they just hear the crisp, unison closure of the s.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:56 PM

WYSIWYG, thank you, thank you. That was really enlightening. Especially "thi......ts". Hoodathunkit? The diphthong treatment of vowels is pretty much what I've generally done, I think, but I hadn't really analyzed it. Thanx again.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:57 PM

Makes sense, eh?

Yer welcome!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Genie
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 04:18 PM

Most of what I have been taught in choir training has already been said. A few elaborations. though.

Let me underscore WYSIWIG's point that many vowel sounds in English are diphthongs, and there's a way to sustain them without sounding screechy.
Long "i" is actually "ah-- ee," and long "a" is actually " eh-ee," and "how" is actually "ha-oh," for example. It generally sounds better, even in folk music,
I think, to sing "aaaaaa-ee," "ehhhhhhh-ee," and "haaaaa-oh" than "a-eeeeee," "eh-eeeeeeee," and "ha-ohhhhhhh."
We are often encouraged in choir to sing "eh" pretty much all the time instead of "eh-ee" -- e.g., "Oh, what a beautiful dehhhhhhhh!" We may put a
teeny weeny "ee" at the very end, but you'd be surprised how natural the diphthong vowel sounds sound when sung with only a bare nod to the second
part of the diphthong.

FWIW, it seems English is one of the few languages that uses the long "a" sound and American English is one of the few places you will hear the kind of
"r" we yanks use.

In Spanish singing, sometimes the rolled "r" can be sustained to great effect, and I think "mmmmmmmm" and "nnnnnnn" can sometimes be sung to
great effect in some musical styles. But the "American 'r'" can be really grating when sustained. Occasionally even the "ssss" if effective. ("I got [clang,
clang] ssssssteam heat....".)

Putting the final consonant of a word at the beginning of the next is a good technique in choral singing, to make sure you don't hear something like
"this-s-s-s land-d-d-d iz-z-z your land-d-d-d-" from your trio. It's less important when singing solo, but even there it can help keep the "s" sound in
check. You've gotta be careful though (as pointed out in another thread) when singing phrases like "the Lord rules" or "lead us not into temptation."
*G*

Again, I'd say try taping yourself singing the song or phrase both ways and see which sounds better for the particular song or style.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 06:02 PM

This thread makes me think of the centipede who was walking along just fine, till someone asked him which leg he started off with; and he fell over.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: toadfrog
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 07:14 PM

Hey, McGrath, the image isn't half bad. Many persuasive reasons are given above to hold vowels. And yet, rules are made to be broken, and if followed slavishly they produce dumb results. My favorite approach is, (1) find a version of the song you really like; (2) work on singing it exactly the way the singer did it (don't worry about imitation, you'll never manage to imitate the original singer so anyone could tell), and (3) when you get to the point where you can think of ways to sing it so it sounds better (if ever), then make the changes. That way, you need not worry about rules or principles.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 07:17 PM

As director of a "folk chorus" (called Animaterra!) , where the music is from traditions all over the world, not the "masterwork repotwah", I can say with some authority that WYSIWYG has nailed it, once again! Genie's take on the final consonant is spot on as well, and I can only add that you need to "bounce" off the consonants more crisply than you ever would when speaking. Even in folk singing, friends- classical technique has some good things to teach us! Few things irk me more idjus than listening to a singer with lovely tone, but not understanding the words due to mushy diction!

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 08:08 PM

Surely, apart from the overall effect which is going to be a personal thing, it is about voice.

Voiced consonants can be sung compare the fricatives "v" & "f" with your hand on your larynx and see what I mean. Explosives like "p" and "b" are less recognisable if elongated but it is not true of all consonants like "v" or liquids like "l".

IMHO it is the phonemes that tell you. That and the audience!!!!!

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 08:21 PM

It's the phonemes that tell you, but the pheromones sell you.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:25 AM

It's a mistake people make writing songs sometimes - the words look right on the page, but they don't sing well because the vowels and the consonants are wrong.

I suppose you could work it out in theory at the time you are making the song, but in practice I change the words to make them more comfortable without thinking about the reason why. And I defend the right of people to do it to other songs too. It's part of the folk process.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:16 PM

Excellent point, McGrath. That's one thing I've observed that sets some really great lyricists --e.g., Johnny Mercer, Cole Porter, Oscar Hammerstein, etc., -- from the vast majority of singer-songwriters. Lots of folks think that if you can just somehow make the words scan with vocal modulation and put a great instrumental track behind a good voice, you've got a good song. There are some very well-known songs that are difficult to sing or difficult to understand because the songwriter did not pay enough attention to the sound of the words when sung.

Genie

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:34 PM

I concur with the last two points. As a songwriter I think the major difference between song writing and poetry is that the songwriter is always looking for vowels, they are what make songs singable.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:39 PM

In a related vein, some mispronunciations of vowels are especially grating (to me, at least) when sung. An example is "The Star Spangled Banner." I've heard far too many really good singers sing "thru the pair-uh-liss fight..." (instead of "...pair-ih-luss...". That pronunciation would probably pass unnoticed in speech, but it stands out like a sore thumb when sung with sustained syllables as in that song.

Genie

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 11:18 PM

And, TOLL we now the Yuletide carol-- not TROLL... troll???? TOLL, like a bell tolls.

~S~

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 06:47 AM

Guest
I would disagree about always looking for vowels. If you want a smooth song, that is easy on the ear and sends people to sleep you write a lullaby (count the vowels in those songs).
If you want a hard punching politcal polemic you look for the explosive consonants and bang down the burden on the beat, boy-o.
The golden rule is that (as George Bernard Shaw said) ther are no golden rules. But there are plenty of things that are mighty difficult to listen to, and it's all in the audience finally.
I once wrote a song for one person, to tell her not to suicide. Two young lasses of the same age told me it was right, not artistic, not good, but right - and boy did that please me more than any artistic praise..

And Yes Dave Swan maybe there was a waft of pheremones - I fancied them and like to think it was posibble that.................

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:54 PM

Mr Red, I completely agree that not all lyrics should emphasize vowel sounds. But the original question was about which sound to hold, and in general, even consonants that can be held (m, n, s, z, f, l, r, for example) don't sound that good when you do hold them. (Some exceptions noted above.) 'Punching' the consonant, e.g., using a very distinct "t" at the end of a word, can be very effective in some songs.
One song that comes to mind that makes much merriment out of repeating and emphasizing a consonant is "Mary Mack."
"Mary Mack's mother's makin' Mary Mack marry me,
My mother's makin' me marry Mary Mack..."


BTW, it's worth mentioning that when using a microphone you've got to be careful about consonants such as s, t, p, k, and b.

Genie

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:17 PM

No, Susan, it is troll the ancient yuletide carol (not sure what it has to do with this thread, though...)

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: David Ingerson
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:47 PM

The golden rule is that there are no golden rules. I like that. Generally speaking, the vowels magnify the tone and the consonants add the variety of sounds needed to distinguish words. But you wouldn't sing consonants the same in a chorus of 250 and as an opera solist. Unamplified soloists must explode each consonant forcefully in order to be understood--again the audience is the bottom line.

I am a trained classical singer and have sung in several operas, a half dozen Bach festivals and innumerable other choral concerts. In that context, for instance, you never sing an "r" at the end of a syllable--NEVAH EVAH (unless, in certain styles, it is rolled).

However, my favorite singing is sean nos--old style Irish singing. And in that style the r's and n's and other sounding consonants frequently ARE held. In fact, they are sometimes even added. An example in English might be "Patrick" sung as "Pantrick". Yes, it does result in a more nasal tone quality but that is one of sean nos' stylistic characteristics.

When it comes down to it, tonal quality, or timbre (pronounced tam-ber), is an important part of style. You don't want a Puccini aria sung like Gregorian chant, nor an Appalachian folk song sung like the blues. (Which is why, in my opinion, opera singers always strike out when they sing folk songs.) Tonal production, vowel shaping, consonant diction are slightly different in each. Toadfrog might have the best advice in this situation simply because there are so many different styles, each with slightly different ways of producing the vowels and consonants. Imitate, listen carefully, record yourself, listen again, have fun.

And don't forget your audience.

BTW, trolling a carol is singing it vigorously. Have fun with your dictionary!

David

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Alice
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 09:01 PM

Another trained voice with a passion for singing sean nos!!!
I HAVE FOUND MY SOUL MATE!!!

David, where have you been all my life??


Alice

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 09:38 PM

Here is more...

Vowels are melody mostly, and consonants are percusive!

Consonants have tiny vowels in them, if you are desperate and need a miracle...

Many of our pop singers break basic singing conventions, by needing to sound different... or because of a lack of training... or because the song just hasn't been sung often enough before recording it (endemic music biz problem...)

One workable solution I use, is to sing the song many times without "boxing it in"... let the words adjust to your need for lyrical rhythym, over time. This requires more time, but the finnished product is much more singable... Actually, I beleive that this is one of the big reasons folk/trad songs are so 'fit to be sung'. ttr

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:04 AM

I learned back in my school days that the vowel is the one you hang onto for long notes. How you keep them from sounding screechy, as you put it is by supporting your breath from your diaphragm, and opening your mouth wide, relaxing your jaw and throat muscles. Warm-up exercises will help here. That's part of the reason singers go through all those scales before the show.
If that still doesn't work, try changing the key of the song. It might be too high for your voice to manage effectively. Perhaps as much as say from G to E, or D maybe. Hope this helps.

Jim

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 09:04 AM

David, if you are available, I suggest you saddle up the hoss and get yer butt out to Montana while the offer is still open there!

As for holding notes, if you're going to hold them it would be the vowels. But I've found it more effective, often, to not hold them at all, rather to keep the words short and pause at the end of the line, rather than trying to croon and warbling around instead.

It's an interpretation thing...

W-O

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: An Croenen
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 09:30 AM

Do you remember the sssssnakesss ssssong in Jungle Book? Isn't it brilliant the way the ss's are abused to make this a truly vile animal, singing: trussssssst in meee, trussssst in meee.. Reading this thread I thought it deserved its place in the Hall of Vowels and Consonants. Also: sometimes the way either vowels or consonants are pronounced (rather than the lenght) can be truly exciting - or offputting. The worst I find when a T is pronounced as TS. Very irritsatsing, don't you think?
Tsara for now!

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:20 PM

David, you're a trained opera singer!?   I'd've never guessed
it!

And you, of course, know what a compliment that is to your folk singing. 
(You, sir, are far from "striking out" when you sing Irish folk songs,
chanteys, etc.)   Some very important points you made, and some
excellent examples.

(Alice, he's here in Portland, OR.  But he's already got a girlfriend.)

Willie, sometimes you can keep the sung word shorts and use more pauses,
but that doesn't fit all songs.  Sometimes the music specifies that
a word be sung over a several-note interval.  (I'm hearing Joan Baez
singing, "If I go-o-o, if I go, if I go ten thousand miles..." and Ewan
MacColl singing "...I thought the sun rose in your ah-ah-ah-ah-ee-ays...". 
Either of those lines would be messed up if you didn't sustain the vowel
over the entire melody run specified.

"Tsara," I tsotally agree!

Genie

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Abuwood
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 11:48 AM

Fascinating thread guys, I have a thing about diction too.
I agree hold the vowel, but always add the consonant at the end even if it is an R.
My pet hate is the running together of words beginning with vowels, ie yourarms sounds (your rarms), too much of this can effect clarity and can make up some funny Mondegreens.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: David Ingerson
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 01:51 PM

Alice, I've been in Portland, Oregon for most of the past 30 years. It was about 25 years ago that I heard my first sean nos song. I forget who sang it but it was The Shores of Lough Bran and that song simply reached out and grabbed me and changed my life.

It is also a good example of how in sean nos the consonants are often held. The first line is "Set you down loyal comrades..." The way the singer sang it sounded sort of like "sennnnnt y' downnnnn loyalllll commmmrannnnnds..." The n's in "set" and "comrades" aren't really strong n's; rather they are almost-n's, or vowels closed so much they sound n-ish. The consonants, especially the explosive ones--d and t--were gently touched, barely noticeable. I found out later that the Irish language has two pronunciations for each consonant: a hard one and a soft.

So, my answer to JennieG is that although most singers will tell you to hold the vowels--and there are many good reasons for doing so--you must find your own answer based on your preferences, on the style(s) of music you like to sing, on the singers you admire and want to imitate, and on your audience (its sophistication, stylistic preferences, ethnic make-up, etc.)

You have recieved lots of good and interesting advice. Now it's your turn to sing to yourself or to the world and to have fun with it, be moved by it, enjoy it, experiment with it, find yourself in it. Do it!

and Alice, where have you been all MY life?

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Alice
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 02:58 PM

I agree, David. When listening to old recordings of sean nos singers, I have heard what you describe. Being here in Montana all this time, I haven't had the advantage of hearing live singing of sean nos, just the many tapes I've been able to accumulate mostly thanks to John Moulden at ulstersongs.com, and the recordings of Joe Heaney. When I discovered that Joe Heaney had taught in Seattle, it was a great disappointment to me that I didn't know about it when he was alive. I could have gone to Seattle and studied but didn't know about him being there until it was too late.

Even my teacher for bel canto voice training has made a point to tell me to add a drone on an "n" or to be more mindful of using the consonants when she listens to me sing Irish songs. I am glad I have a voice teacher who appreciates authentic ethnic singing. It may help that she has a PhD in cantorial music, teaches Hebrew and is a cantor, as well as being a performing coloratura soprano. She values authenticity. I concur that it is all in the matter of being true to the genre or style of music you are singing... JennieG, listen to good sources of the type of music you want to sing. Soak it up and let it become a part of you. Record yourself and objectively listen to your singing. You will eventually figure out what sounds right.

Alice

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Alice
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 03:06 PM

I must say, too, that now when I go back and listen to Clancy/Makem recordings that I grew up with in the 60's, I can hear the influence of sean nos, even though the guys were stage performers and didn't usually do unaccompanied singing. There are those held "r" and "n" sounds that many a voice teacher would erase. I have an early recording of Sarah Makem with one of her neighbors, Annie Jane Kelly, which is delightful.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 08:22 AM

Just a thought but some words help you hold the note
Take LOVE - the l and the v are voiced consonants and it means that the larynx is in use over most of the word - easy to hold. One powerful reason the word is more favoured than "affection" in such lyrics I contend. OK it is one syllable but it shares a quality that onomatopaeic words share - it fits the concept.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Willie-O
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 08:32 AM

Yes Genie, quite so, and generally I don't sing those songs that require you to hold and hold a note. Unless I am so drawn to them that I don't care how it sounds.

But sometimes people try to sing the notes the exact same length as they've heard someone else do it, when it doesn't suit them, or try to stretch a word which should not be emphasized, and that's somewhat torturous.

W-O

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 09:28 AM

Couldn't agee more Willie-O. But for comic effect all bets are off.

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Genie
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 08:16 PM

Willie, "...sometimes people try to sing the notes the exact same length as they've heard someone else do it, when it doesn't suit them..."
Yeah, as an asthmatic, I've learned I have to modify the phrasing of many songs if they are usually sung sustaining a word -- either put in a pause before the word so I can take a breath or don't hold that word (which may use one or more notes) quite so long. That sounds better than running out of air in the middle of a word.

Genie

Subject: RE: Singing: hold vowel or consonant?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 05:14 PM

Just a case in point, tonight we were practising an anthem for Sunday (Advent) which closes with an 'A-men' sung on a minim and semibreve. The musical direction for the 'men' is a diminuendo a niente (to nothing). If we followed our usual practise of holding the vowel, the final consonant would be inaudible. Our choirmaster has asked that the final semibreve be beat in crotchets with the last crotchet being held on the 'n'. This seems to work beautifully, and combines both possibilities.

Nigel