Origins: Origins of Irish and Irish American Song

Subject: Origins: Origins or Irish and Irish American Song
From: Seamus
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 04:59 PM

This is horribly general, but here we go: I'm looking for websites that provide origins on Irish and Irish American songs. I intend on doing monthly segments on a radio program on this topic. Recently burst the collective bubble, telling the listeners the "real" story behind "Danny Boy". The response was immediate and slighly overwhelming. Any ideas are welcome. - Seamus

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins or Irish and Irish American Song
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 05:13 PM

Seamus

It's a bit like the story about the Irish Pub, where a customer asks surly barman "Where's the ashtray?". Answer: "You're standing in it!". This forum is as good a place as any for what you want, I reckon.

Regards

p.s. where's the station?

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins or Irish and Irish American Song
From: Seamus
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 05:19 PM

Martin Ryan,

Yeah...there are some who really spend ALOT of time on the net. I am counting on them. *G* I'm often perplexed that more lyric sites don't have an emphasis on their origins. It is, after all, the story that drives us...
It's 1100AM KFNX in the Phoenix area. Little show called Being Irish...lots of fun, except for getting up for it after a gig night.

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins or Irish and Irish American Song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 05:26 PM

Hi, Seamus - I think we're pretty good at researching songs here. Do a search here for the particular song you want, and try to find an existing thread on the song and add your question to it. If no thread exists, start one. There are so many conflicting stories about the "true origin" of "Danny Boy," that I'd leave that question alone. Click here to get all the information we have on "Danny Boy / Londonderry Air."

When I was in Ireland last year, I learned that all good songs began in Ireland. When I visited England THIS year, I learned that all those Irish songs actually got their start in England.

Actually, I guess there is some truth to both. I understand that some songs in the "original" Irish are translations of songs first written in England, in the English language.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins or Irish and Irish American Song
From: Seamus
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 05:43 PM

As with anything else, I like to gather as much info as possible, choose a stance, and then defend it as best as possible. Whether I'm right or wrong in the end is for someone else to worry over. For me, it's just good radio -- even better if a few folks get hot at me.

I'm not planning on controversal presentations though. We could debate the meaning of "Ride On" and J. McCarthy would laugh at our folly. There are plenty of interesting stories surounding songs out of Ireland or originating from Irish America. The Danny Boy segment was lovely, and Mudcat was essential in putting that together. I did Molly Malone about a year ago, and had a great on-air chat about the Tart with the Cart. Right or Wrong, bring on the Story.

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins of Irish and Irish American Song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 05:49 PM

I would suggest it may be best to discuss individual songs in individual threads (either existing or new threads), rather than a general thread for the origins of any and all Irish songs.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins of Irish and Irish American Song
From: Seamus
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 05:59 PM

Joe,
Ah Bollocks! Of course, I agree. There are many players, however that frequent this forum. The call on this thread is for unique stories for songs that others play. Were I concerned with a specific song, I'm capable of researching it from a factual stance. But the story will vary. No two singers will tell the story behind the "Ould Triangle" with the same colour; each will throw his or her own shapes. Therefore, I feel the thread is still viable.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins of Irish and Irish American Song
From: Declan
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 06:22 AM

Seamus,

I've never heard of anyone throwing their own shapes into the "Old Triangle" - "The Old Circle", "The Old Pentagon" ? ;-)

I know what you mean though. This thread could be fun I'd say. We've had a few lively ones about song origins before. I'll keep an eye on it and if I think of anyuthing on topic to contribute I will.

That well known German song "I'll take you home again Kathleen" gave rise to some interesting stuff here a while back.

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins of Irish and Irish American
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM

"Any old Iron" has psossibly caused the most controversy here!! I'd leave that one alone.

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins of Irish and Irish American Song
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 07:06 AM

G'day Seamus,

From the safety distance of the antipodes, may I suggest you check the Dover Publications catalogue to see if they still publish Popular Irish Songs, Editied by Florence Leniston, Dover Pub'ns Inc, New York, 1992.

This deals with 36 of the most popular Irish (well ... sometimes "Oirish", in USA) songs - reproducing the first version published (usually) in the USA and with good provenance notes. You'll find a great lot to interest you in the notes!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins of Irish and Irish American Song
From: Seamus
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 04:06 PM

Bob,
Thanks for the line. I'm always eager for another book...though I admit I'd normally avoid the title you've suggested. It's rare to find notes of any sort, and it always the same musty stuff. I will certainly check it out...

Any old Iron? Um...I don't get it.

In regards to the "Tart with the Cart"..
I ran into a few people during the weekend who maintained that Molly Malone was a real character, down to the fish basket. They pointed out that her grave was found behind St. John's Church, complete with burial records.

Turns out the whole story was fabricated by opponants of the Civic Offices in Dublin, which affected not only hundereds of grave sites, but also a dig of an early Viking settlement...

Then again, I could be wrong... *G*

Subject: RE: Origins: Origins of Irish and Irish American Song
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 07:37 PM

The thread on the origins of Spancil Hill has got to be one of the all-time highlights of Mudcat - and it fits your Irish-American frame very well.

WassaiL! V