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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Lighter Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:03 PM Thanks for the suggestion, GUEST (Steve?), but I do have a copy. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:07 PM Yes, of course it was me, decookied again! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Desert Dancer Date: 13 Feb 14 - 02:39 PM Interesting point, Dick Greenhouse... so it's not anachronistic to have Llewyn Davis sing Shoals of Herring. Still a problem for him to have sung it with his father when he was a child, though. ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) Date: 13 Feb 14 - 06:05 PM "For the record, "Singing the Fishing was aird on BBC in 1959. Before the end of 1960, the song was well known (and badly overdone) in Greenwich Village folk circles". Not according to the BBC, Dick: "Singing The Fishing First transmitted on16 August 1960 .... Singing the Fishing won the Prix d'Italia for radio documentary in October 1960 and was eventually transmitted in 86 countries". http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/radioballads/original/singingthefishing.shtml I find it unlikely that the song should have been "well known (and badly overdone) in Greenwich Village folk circles" weeks after its first broadcast in the UK, and even more unlikely that Llewyn Davis could have made a recording of it when he was 8 years old! The annoying thing is that there are innumerable traditional fishing/maritime songs the Coen brothers could have chosen to be Llewin's father's favourite song, which was supposed to have such an emotional effect on him in his care home (though why they had to have his father shit himself is another question)! After all, if they could (allegedly) base Jim's beard on that of Paul Clayton, there are plenty of Clayton's maritime songs that would have fitted the bill! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,Gordon McCulloch Date: 15 Dec 14 - 12:32 PM Having recently been steered to the contents of this correspondence, I confess to having been astounded at the sheer volume of specious nonsense generated about MacColl`s glorious song, even some 50-odd years after its creation. I believe I might throw a wee light on one of the more contentious aspects. As pointed out by "Les in Chorlton", Ian Campbell and myself both sang on Ewan`s Radio Ballad "Singing the Fishing" for which the song was written. Every evening after rehearsals/recordings we would walk home endlessly singing/debating over MacColl`s songs. Out of these enthralled discussions arose the format of the song which was later to become recognisably "The Shoals of Herring"...that is to say with the slow freely-sung stanzas that bookend the main body of the text. A cursory inspection of the original script (I still have mine) makes it clear that the song has been cobbled together from two quite separate songs {each with its own air} embedded in quite distinct passages of the radio ballad. My recollection is that the idea of grafting the songs together was my own...but it might just as easily have been Ian`s...memory fades! Either {or both) of us would, however, be equally proud to have made some contribution, however small, to the genesis of MacColl`s splendid creation. Turning to the vexed question of MacColl`s supposed plagiarism,I feel this brand of mean-spirited claptrap can only be put about by individuals who have not understood any of the protean workings of the folk process..of which plagiarism is an essential building block . Clearly, Ewan openly embraced this notion in his numerous borrowings from and re-workings of existing materials. Consider, for example, his wry version of "Sweet Thames Flow Softly". MacColl, more than most, respected Brecht`s injunction to "watch the people`s mouth". In case it might be thought that I speak as one of "MacColl`s disciples"...nothing could be further from the truth. At the time I abandoned (with others) the Critics Group I had already come to rather dislike the man...particularly his embracing of Maoist ideology at the very height of the notorious Cultural Revolution. I found him to be a self-opinionated bully. Ewan was a polymath who would not recognise any limits to his knowledge...endlessly exasperating...endlessly self-contradictory...a deeply flawed genius...but a genius nonetheless. He should be given his place. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Lighter Date: 15 Dec 14 - 12:42 PM Valuable reminiscence, Gordon. Thanks for posting. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Dec 14 - 02:57 PM 'A cursory inspection of the original script (I still have mine) makes it clear that the song has been cobbled together from two quite separate songs {each with its own air} embedded in quite distinct passages of the radio ballad. My recollection is that the idea of grafting the songs together was my own...' Please do enlighten us further, Gordon. What exactly are the 2 quite separate songs? Would you consider posting the original script on a website if one could be found to host it? The album is BTW one of my absolute favourites. Thank-you for your contribution to the programme and to the thread here. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Dec 14 - 04:09 PM "A cursory inspection of the original script (I still have mine) makes it clear that the song has been cobbled together from two quite separate songs" For the record, Shoals of Herring was largely based on actuality recorded from 2 Norfolk fisherman, Sam Larner and Ronnie Balls, and was inspired by Sam's account of his early days at sea. The air was adapted of Gavin Greig's tune, 'Famous Flower of Serving Men' (Sweet William) - Ewan used it for a number of his songs. The tune for the opening and closing verses are freely sung adaptations of the main tune (easily checked) Conincidentally, I have just finished listening to an evening of Ewan and Peggy working on Gordon's Beggar man - magic. I came away wishing that two singers of Ewan's and Peggy's status would have taken as much time and effort working on my singing. I was only in the Critics Group for tw years (about the same length of time as Gordon, but at the end rather than the beginning of the life of the Group) - Pat was in it somewhat longer. Personally, I came away with the opposite opinion to Gordon's, I fonf both Ewan and Peggy generous with their time and knowledge, infinitely patient and helpful towards a relatively new singer I don't know enough to say what Ewan knew or did not know, but I found the time I spent in the Group inspirational and life-changing and I found much of what was dealt with by them was echoed in much of what we recorded from field singers. Then again, I have listened to and indexed all 7 years worth of recordings of the Group over the last six months, so I may be somewhat biased. Matter of opinion, I suppose. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Dec 14 - 04:44 PM Very gracious of you, Jim. However without even seeing it I'm absolutely certain all of your work is supremely valuable to all of us with an interest in traditional song. Many thanks for this. Happy Christmas Steve |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Dec 14 - 07:01 PM And to you Steve I fully intend to index some of the MacColl/Seeger actuality and pass it on to whoever will make decent use of it - it's magnificent stuff and fills a huge gap in or knowledge of traditional song. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST,henryp Date: 16 Dec 14 - 04:54 AM Jim, your own memories of MacColl and Seeger are scattered across Mudcat. Collected together, they would be another important resource too. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Dec 14 - 04:55 AM Jim, I know you don't rate the authorities over here, but it would be great to have your material even more widely available. I think EFDSS would be interested if you'd give them a chance. They've done a great job with the Full English. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Les in Chorlton Date: 16 Dec 14 - 05:33 AM Who's centenary next year? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: GUEST Date: 17 Dec 14 - 05:40 AM From Wikipedia; James Henry Miller (25 January 1915 – 22 October 1989), better known by his stage name Ewan MacColl. And we're already in disputed territory! Was he really christened Jimmy? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Dec 14 - 06:01 AM "Who's centenary next year." Oh dear - not ***** again He was christened James Henry Miller (not "Jimmy") He had his name changed - no more "disputed" than Robert Zimmmermann changing his name to Bob Dylan) One day people will actually get round to discussing MacColl's work rather than this 'Two-Sheds Jackson' nonsense "Who's centenary next year" It's the 100 th anniversary of MacColl's birth on Burns Night next January "Full English" Has our collection finally gone up on Full English? "Jim, your own memories of MacColl and Seeger are scattered across Mudcat" Did our final interview with Bob Blair yesterday for the programmes - broadcast dates set for either side of the anniversary. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Vic Smith Date: 17 Dec 14 - 06:51 AM Les in Charlton asked - "Who's centenary next year?" Well, Les. I am looking forward to it very much - Bob Copper Born 6th January 1915 in Rottingdean, Sussex. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Mysha Date: 08 Oct 15 - 04:59 PM Hi, I've just listened to parts of the documentary The Shoals of Herring. At the end is a song consisting of just these two verses (as I hear it): With our nets and gear we're faring On the wild and wasteful ocean It's there on the deep that we harvest and reap our bread As we hunt the bonny shoals of herring Neither men nor ships we're sparing As we waste the wild crop of the ocean Sowing no seed in the sea for tomorrow's need We may see no more the shoals of herring I didn't go through it all to see whether the entire song also makes an appearance, though. Bye, Mysha |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: RunrigFan Date: 10 Nov 21 - 06:17 PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EspRkEcfNHw only Gaelic version |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: RunrigFan Date: 10 Nov 21 - 06:23 PM Luke Kelly version With our nets and gear we're faring On the wild and wasteful ocean It's out there on the deep We harvest and reap our bread As we hunt the bonny shoals of herring Oh it was a fine and a pleasant day Out of Yarmouth harbour I was faring As a cabin boy on a sailing logger We were following the shoals of herring Now you're up on deck, you're a fisherman You can swear and show a manly bearing Take your turn on watch with the other fellows As you're hunting for the shoals of herring Now we fished the Swarth and the Broken Bank I was cook and I'd a quarter-sharing And I used to sleep standing on me feet As we hunted for the shoals of herring We left the home grounds in the month of June And for canny Shiels we soon were bearing With a hundred cran of the silver darlings That we've taken from the shoals of herring In the stormy seas and the living gales Just to earn your daily bread you're faring From the Dover Straits to the Faroe Islands And you're hunting for the shoals of herring Well I earned me keep and I paid me way And I earned the gear that I was wearing Sailed a million miles, caught ten million fishes We were hunting after shoals of herring You're net float men now boy you're on the move And you're learning all about sea-faring That's your education, scraps of navigation As you hunt the bonny shoals of herring Night and day the seas were daring Come wind or tide or winter gale Sweating or cold, growing up, Growing old or dying As you hunt the bonny shoals of herring |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Nov 21 - 02:45 AM Sailing lugger surely? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Shoals of Herring (MacColl) From: DaveRo Date: 11 Nov 21 - 03:27 AM and the "Now you're up on deck, you're a fisherman" verse comes later - he has to earn that. |
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