BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?

Subject: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:24 PM

If so - any chance of a copy. My recording stopped halfway through - It wasn't me! Honest! I used VideoPlus. Duff tape I reckon. Grrrrr.

Anyhow - anyone willing to lend me theirs?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:27 PM

Dave, was this Hornblower at The Hotspur? I don't think we get it here until summer.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:31 PM

MMMM ! With respect, I prefer the books.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:38 PM

With respect, I think that Gareth's a twat

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:52 PM

Read them all in the 6th form library when I should have been studying History, Politics and British constituion and government, Gareth. Wonderful they were too but 35 years later I find slobbing in front of the TV easier than skiving in the library:-)

They are the Hotspur ones, Don. Saw the first 2 hours on Sunday and the first half of the second one on my broken tape tonight.

Someone help please!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 05:01 PM

I'll bet I reread all things Hornblower annually.

Gareth, I like the books too. But the films, even Gregory Peck's, have a charm for us visual types. And I've never noticed you to be be twatish.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:56 PM

AAAARGH ! Dont memtion the Gregory Peck Film ! A traversty (SP)

And without respect, Anon Guest, your oppinion don't count.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST,Another Guest
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 08:07 PM

Dear Anon Guest,

Your comments are a question of mind over matter.

I don't think Gareth minds.

And you don't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 08:13 PM

Gareth,

It wasn't great but jeepers, I watch drivel to look at those ships.
Spencer Traceys Captains Courageous wasn't really the story but that footage of the Glouscester Men unsder sail makes it all fine with me.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:30 AM

It's a while since I read the book.
In the TV version, there is an Irish character called Wolf who hopes to lead a French invasion of Ireland. Wolf Tone?
No music to speak of. No shanties of course.
Much use of "2-6-Heave" which cropped up in a recent thread.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 05:37 AM

Shanties weren't sung on Royal Navy ships.........

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:24 AM

try Patrick O'Brian, Hornblower for grown-ups, with jokes. I used to re-read Hornblower books, but after my first O'Brian I've never returned to dear Hornblower, faithless chap that I am.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:17 AM

Still doesn't get me the video though. Mutter mutter mutter...

Noticed on Amazon that a DVD comes out 3rd Feb. Doesn't mention if this one is on it though. It's my birthday on the 5th so I guess I could go for it anyway;-)

In the meanwhile if there is anyone with a copy out there...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: My guru always said
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:41 AM

Oh No, I hope my husband didn't use videoplus while I was stuck in hospital, or I might only have bits of it too!

DtG: If we find we've got the whole thing I'll post straightaway!

Meanwhile, did anyone mention Alexander Kent, same stuff & brilliant too!

Harryoldham: is that for real about no shanties on Royal Navy ships? That's a real surprise! Discipline versus enjoyable duties? The Cat perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 11:00 AM

Shanties WERE sung aboard HM ships. Drunken Sailor esp. They were not in favour as work songs on larger vessels, but cutters, sloops & even brig crews used to "sing out" on occasion.
I'm with Gareth. The portrayal of "Horry" leaves a lot to be desired,
but I also like to ogle the boats!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 11:02 AM

I am envious. I don't want to wait but I shall.

O'Brian's stuff is too much like popcorn. His books were more like chapters. It was frustrating to have to wait a year between volumes.
Don't detract from Forester, though. The 'Captain Hornblowers' were written for the purpose of generating a script and thereby hangs an entire genre. Each of his novels is a distinct book and stands by itself. The O'Brians don't.

You might also try the Drinkwater series. Much better than the O'Brians. In addition, Woodman allowed his character to die, rather than simply stringing out the series as did O'Brian. If he hadn't died, we would still be waiting on new volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: IanC
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 11:08 AM

Actually, I got my daughter to video it, but I haven't seen it yet and there's already a queue.

If you're desparate, PM me your address and it'll get to you eventually.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 01:44 PM

We watched about half of it but it was very boring so I turned over.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 01:52 PM

Although I much prefer O'Brien to Forrester, these books were very much part of a much younger me. The BBC has done them fairly well. As the sailing navy is very much my 'specialist subject' I'm pleased to see that they got particular details right, like the single epaulette on Commander Hornblower's left shoulder. If it was left to Hollywood he would have been dressed as a Danish Rear Admiral! But why did he only have one lieutenant, and have to leave his command to a midshipman?

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: HuwG
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 02:03 PM

Les from Hull, as we all know, Standard Operating Procedures for the Royal Navy circa 1800 were adapted from those in use on the Starship USS Enterprise. These include:

From a ship with a crew of hundreds, only the Captain, Senior Specialist Officer, Doctor and Chief Engineer are considered competent to leave the ship to its own devices and go ashore;

Whoever is wearing a red shirt or uniform when forming part of a landing party, will surely come to grief;

etc.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:02 PM

As this was only a sloop, they are only entitled to an Assistant Surgeon, but they didn't even have one of them. The Captain's Steward seemed medically qualified, though.

The tradition of Disposable-Men-In-Red-Uniforms was actually started by the Royal Marines.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: My guru always said
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:36 AM

I don't think they had radar deflectors in those days though, did they? I'm sure I spotted one!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:45 AM

Romans, keep your armours
Saxons, your pyjamas
Hairy coats were meant for goats
Gorillas Yaks, retriever dogs & llamas

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:47 AM

OOOOOOhhhhh to have to wait for the US format! Not having cable, here, I had a pal tape the earlier ones for me, very nice! And as to the Peck version, any thing with peck, just about, is great, but I may be partial having lived near to Dunquin Dingle where his family was from. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:55 AM

I saw Monday's but forgot Tuesday's till we wre 3/4 through. But I'd read the book, so I had a rough idea of what I'd missed. I think the ships are excellent, and less wooden than some of the acting; and I recognised the view of Portsmouth before the caption came up. The special effects are more special than they were in the early series, although I began to wonder if I was seeing the same load of planks going up in the air every time a shot went home.

I read some of the Drinkwater books, but I didn't like them as much. Too much like 20th century people in a costume drama. I read one of Woodman's set in the Merchant Navy in WWI, and thought that it would have been a lot better without all the gratuitous four-letter words.

But Brian Callison must take the cake for the all-time crap writer of nautical fiction: Pugwash on speed!. (Runner-up Dudley Pope, but his books are fun in an Errol Flynn sort of way.)

Don't let my jaundiced opinions bias your own, BTW: go out and read 'em for yourselves; you might disagree with me.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Fiolar
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:57 AM

Keith A: Not "Wolfe Tone." The episodes were set in 1803/1804 and introduced the idea of a French invasion of Ireland to hang the story together. The character "Wolf" told Hornblower just before he got killed that "while he respected Hormblower, he hated and detested all the stood for." Earlier in the story another Irishman who had been a French agent in the British navy for years, killed himself. Hornblower and the Admiral covered it up because and I quote " a quarter of the navy was Irish." The same old story really. "Boney is a tyrant" and the Brits are fighting to save civilisation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 09:18 AM

I know your tongue is in your cheek Fiolar, but yes, as in WW1 and 2 when so many Irishmen again enlisted on the side of the angels.

I know that Wolf was the character's surname and that it is only fiction, but a striking coincidence if not a deliberate usage.

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:15 AM

Perhaps I should explain.
I hesitate to post on Irish history as there are so many experts here, but perhaps they are not following this thread.
Wolfe Tone did lead a French invasion force to Ireland in 1796.
He was defeated at Bantry Bay not by HH but by bad weather.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST,My Guru Always Said's husband
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:06 AM

NO, Wiggle... I didn't use video plus :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: HuwG
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:43 AM

C.S. Forester wrote a short "Hornblower" story, called "Hornblower and the Widow McCool". I saw this sold as part of a collection entitled "Hornblower and the crisis", another full-length story which Forester was unable to complete before he died.

In the "Widow McCool" story, Hornblower is a junior Lieutenant aboard HMS "Renown" under Captain Sawyer (before Sawyer does a Captain Queeg act and becomes totally paranoid), serving in the Channel fleet. The "Renown" captures a French brig, which has aboard an Irish rebel named Barry Ignatius McCool. As he is a deserter from the Royal Navy, he can be tried and hanged immediately.

In return for not trying to cause a riot among the Irish crewmen of the "Renown" (and the whole Channel Fleet) before he is hanged, McCool gets Hornblower to send his only posession, a sea chest with his name carved on it, to his widow in Dublin. McCool writes a covering letter, in which he declares himself "faithful unto death". Hornblower is unable to post these before "Renown" has to put to sea again, and as he is whiling away the hours, Hornblower reads this letter and deciphers from it the means to open the secret compartment in the chest, stuffed with money and compromising documents.

Rather than cause more distress, Hornblower tips the chest and its contents overboard. He discovers much later that McCool left no widow, and that his faith was devoted to the cause of Irish freedom.




I didn't actually see the Hornblower programmes, but it sounds as if the producers drew on this source for much of the plot.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:17 PM

There was indeed an abortive French invasion of Ireland in '96 and they tried again in about 1802 I think.

I started naval historical fiction with Alexander Kent's (aka Douglas Reeman) Richard Bolitho books and still find them quite exciting if a little samey - there are only so many ways to have a battle and when you have three or four in each book...... Patrick O'Brian's Stephen Aubrey books (modelled, I believe on Lord Cochrane) have a lot more of the background politcal & romantic stuff and seem to be more highly thought of - but I sometimes find them a bit tedious.

I've only read a few Hornblower stories - perhaps I should read 'em all - but I don't think the TV films have done them justice. Granted, it's difficult to get all the details right, but it makes it hard to take it seriously when the sails are braced for a wind from the port beam and the smoke's drifting the other way! The acting was a bit variable too, I thought: Edward Pellew (played by the actor whose name I can't remember but I can't help thinking of as 'Wolfie') had a couple of brilliant scenes but fell apart at times. I think they had only one ship to do all the scenes - there aren't that many about - and some scenes were very obviously a model in a tank. Worth watching, nevertheless and I didn't realise that it was on on Tuesday as well - I was at Liverpool Folk Club.

Apparently there's a film of one (or more) of the Jack Aubrey books coming out this year. Someone called Russell Crowe as Aubrey.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

That clinches it. It is a conspiracy. Another rebel with a wolverine name, Wolfie of the Tooting Liberation Front.
Power to the people,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST,Pat Cleburne
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:55 PM

O'Brien is a better writer than Forrester.....plain and simple. Since he's passed on a kid like you should now be able to pick up with
Master and Commander and "slog your way through". Isn't it great to read about a time when the Brits had balls.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: The Walrus
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:21 PM

Steve,

"...Patrick O'Brian's Stephen Aubrey books (modelled, I believe on Lord Cochrane)..."

Aubrey, Ramage, Bolitho, Hornblower, they're ALL based on Cochrane.

Regards

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST,Lizabee
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:48 PM

I'm 1/2 way through an full length audio tape of a Alexander Kent story @ the mo. It's taking awhile though Cos Dad's ended up listen to it with me, which means fitting it in when we're both about!

Fraid I watched Hornblower live so Can't help on the Vid. Dad wouldn't watch it, the inacuracys get to him being a naughtical bloke, least he didn't then have to remember which plot was which!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:12 AM

Harrumph! [for those who've read the H books] It's Jack Aubrey, Stephen Maturin! I really can't imagine Russell Crowe being called "Goldilocks" behind his back. And since Keith A's brought the subject up, has anyone spotted the remarkable similarity in appearance between Wolfie Smith and Admiral Pellew?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Wotcha
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 06:57 AM

I highly recommend Robert Harvey's book "Lord Cochrane: The Life and Exploits of a Fighting Captain." ALthough others have written about Cochrane, this recent book is pretty full of detail -- truth is very much stranger than fiction: not even Monty Python could have thought up a story where Bernardo ... O'Higgins (son of a Viceroy to Peru) takes the services of an out of work sea captain and helps to liberate Peru. The "Sea Wolf" as he has been called, is worthy of his own movie!

Cheers,

Brian

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:04 AM

So, another revolutionary Wolf!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:22 AM

..er...yes, sorry, Keith, NOT 'Stephen Aubrey'! I've read the first eight or so so I ought to know the characters by now!

Didn't realise that they were ALL based on Cochrane. I've read the first volume of his autobiography (imaginatively entitled 'Autobiography of a Seaman') and will get on with the second eventually - it's quite heavy going at times. The siege of Rosas crops up in one of the Aubrey books....?   Now there was an exciting episode.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: HuwG
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM

The original character of Hornblower may have been based on a Commodore Gordon Stewart, who led a British flotilla up the Potomac River during the Anglo-American War of 1812.

(No, he did not burn the White House; that was mainly the doing of Rear-Admiral Cockburn, a much less attractive character, though a good seaman).

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:04 AM

Just to complicate matters, Richard Sharpe got involved in a private capacity with the liberation of Peru too. A dark-haired blond Cockney North-countryman.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:10 AM

I now find that the second attempted invasion of Ireland was in 1798 (not 1802ish, as I thought) and by a force of only brigade strength. This was clearly insufficent - they were relying on the goodwill of the Irish to help 'em get across and fight the oppressing English. Wrong.

Was Rear Admiral Cockburn the one with the port business?

S.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:35 AM

The various naval history novelists used various real events to base their stories on as well as imagined events. For instance Jack Aubrey is Cochrane in the Med (Master and Commander) but Pym at Mauritius (The Mauritius Command) then back to being Cochrane again (The Reverse of the Medal). I think that it would be wrong to suggest that any of these novelists based their characters entirely on one person.

I hope they're not too accurately based on Cochrane - a brilliant and brave fighting seaman and a fine radical politician, but a bit of a nutter all the same. No respecter of authority in any form and an early proponent of poison gas! But to serve as an admiral for four different countries sets a unique record.

As to which novels are the best, that obviously depends on the reader's taste. I myself prefer Patrick O'Brien's books, although I am eternally grateful to Forester who started this interest for me. Since then I have eagerly devoured everything I could on the subject; fiction, film, TV, biography, autobiography and non-fiction alike.

Reading some of the factual accounts of actions in, say, Willaim Laird Clowes' 'The Royal Navy - a history from the earliest times to 1900', shows that the actions of Hornblower, Aubrey, Bolitho et al were not necessarily so far out of the ordinary.

Schantieman - the ship that does the film work and appeared as Hotspur is 'Grand Turk' a replica post ship. If you look at their web site you might be able to find out when she next visits a port near you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:39 AM

Yes - I saw here in Liverpool when she was here for the shanty festival last year - and the year before, I think. Couldn't remember the name.

S

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:47 AM

DonMeixner, you said you watch the films to look at the ships. Have you seen The World In His Arms? Not much of a story but great footage of two schooners racing. My father saw it when it forst came out and those scenes stayed with him. I found it for him for Christmas a couple of years ago, had to order it. I think that was a Gregory Peck film also.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM

...but what are they going to do now he's been promoted to Post Captain and gets a bigger ship?   Are there any third rates out there?

S

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: HuwG
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:28 PM

If I remember the Hornblower books (which incidentally were written out of sequence, so there are a few inconsistencies and errors), Hornblower's first command on being made Post-Captain, was the sloop HMS "Atropos", which was a 22-gun sloop i.e. with only one more gunport per side than HMS "Hotspur". So, a mere lick of paint will keep things fairly close to the book.

After that, things get more difficult. First, Hornblower commands the 36-gun frigate HMS "Lydia", and then the 74-gun third-rate HMS "Sutherland".

As far as I know, there are no replica frigates in existence, and certainly no ships-of-the-line (unless you count HMS "Victory", which is still on the strength of the Royal Navy (oops, nearly forgot, the USS "Constitution")


So, unless you keep Hornblower low down in seniority, or do some "Lord-of-the-Rings" forced perspective shots, Hornblower will have to sail the good ship CGI [Computer Generated Image]

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM

I daresay they could do interior shots in the Victory - but then they could build a set too.    Wonder what the cost and feasibility of building a line-of-battle ship would be now?! Six acres of oak woodland and considerable non-existent skills, for a start!

S

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:43 PM

Naemanson, yes I have. Some wonderful footage. Captains Courageous is till in mymmind the best. Captain Blood, The Sea Hawk, The Master of Ballantraye all have good shippy bits too.

The Bounty is owned by Ted Turner and was used in the recent Treasure Island. That can be CGI'd into a Frigate pretty well I'd think.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST,Compton
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:46 PM

Actually, sad that i am, I enjoyed the TWO programmes Sunday and Monday. ITV didn't make that bad a fist of it! Compared with what they show on Saturday nights...I was a BIg improvement..There's nothing like a bit of "Derring Do" on a Monday night

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:57 PM

Cochrane's autobiography is a must read....it;s extraordinarily funny in a completely unintended way, and of course widly exciting and interesting as well. O'Brian certainly modelled a lot of Aubrey's charm on Cochrane's complete lack of self-awareness, coupled with technical brilliance as a seaman and fighter. A brilliant writer(O'Brian, I mean).

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 08:27 PM

This website has more than you'd ever want to know (or links to it) about the upcoming Aubrey-Maturin movie. I'm a recent inductee to the cult, myself, working on Post Captain at the moment.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: 8_Pints
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 09:42 PM

Dave,

Yes we did tape it, sort of!

As you recall the program was broadcast on two consecutive days.

We manually taped the first program and left it on timer for the second.

Of course it didn't spring to life when required, but we did revert to manual afterward.

I don't think we have missed much!

Bob & Sue vG

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:39 AM

The replica frigate, HMS Rose now lives on the West Coast. I believe she was purchased for the Aubrey/Maturin series. Prior to that, she was used as several frigates in the Hornblower series. She and the Sloop Providence were engaged in mock battle off South Street Seaport as a publicity event for the first series.

Another series worthy of consideration is Dewey Lambdin's Alan Lewry series which is back in print and available from St. Martin's Griffin at www.stmartins.com. It was very frustrating for a while that several of the middle books in the series were out of print. Start with "King's Coat." This is the series Aubrey/Maturin should have been.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:11 AM

Further to the question regarding the use of shanty singing on Royal Navy ships here is a quotation from Stan hugill's 'Shanties from the Seven Seas' :-

          "No shantying was allowed in the Senior Service, although Whall seems to think that it was permitted in small craft and revenue cutters and then the only type of shanty used would be a stamp-'n'-go song suited to big crews who would walk away with married falls. 'Cheer'ly Man' was also used at times, but in the main, though they had the aid of the fiddle, the pipe and the calling of numbers by the bosun's mate, naval seamen worked in silence - hence the disparaging title given them by Merchant John - 'Johnny Haul - Taut."

So don't expect any shanty singing on Hornblower's man o' war....

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:45 AM

I knew about the Navy and shanties, hence the 'of course' in my earlier post. I also have Stan's book, but why cite him as an authority on this? Naval sail was well before his time.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:35 AM

I suspect he might have done some research though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Fiolar
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 05:39 AM

Schantieman: The actor who plays Sir Edward Pellew is Robert Lindsay.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:25 AM

Fantastic Stuff, Bob and Sue. I have the first hour of the second episode anyway! When can I come and borrow it? PM me if you would and many thanks in advance.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:49 AM

Just looked at the official "M&C" movie website. Quel horreur! Himself ahs two epaullettes, not one! I'd better go anfd see it when it comes out, jutst to see what other mistakes they've made!

I see They've cast David Threlfall as Killick: not bad. My frst choice would have been Tony Robinson: Baldrick in a blue coat!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: My guru always said
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:59 AM

A cunning plan - Baldrick, oh my!! *G*

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:37 PM

Thank you, Fiolar. My life is now complete ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: HuwG
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:26 PM

An afterthought to my post above, re. the officer on whom Hornblower might have been based:

C.S. Forester wrote a fairly good naval history of the Anglo-American War of 1812; it borrowed heavily from Teddy Roosevelt's book on the same subject but added a few notes and opnions from the British side.

He covered the naval operations in the Chesapeake quite well, and described Commodore Gordon's expedition up the Potomac. (Note that the name was just Gordon, not Gordon Stewart; I may have been confusing him with the American Captain Charles Stewart, who had to flee for dear life with the USS "Constellation" in 1813 near Washington, but who later commanded the USS "Constitution", and captured HMS "Cyane" and HMS "Levant" in a battle towards the end of the war).

Apparently, Gordon had served in Central America in 1808-1809(as did Hornblower) and at Riga in Russia, in 1812 (as did Hornblower) before going to the Chesapeake. There are a few other parallels between the real-life and fictional Captains.

Forester frequently mixed real and fictional characters together in the same setting; Sir Edward Pellew (later Lord Exmouth) was a real and very famous historical figure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:58 PM

...as did O'Brian with Aubrey. He had him aboard the Shannon during the famous battle with the Chesapeake, for instance. (Isn't there a song about that?)

S

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:02 AM

Most of Forrester's central characters are ordinary chaps in extraordinary situations, doing the obviously proper thing.

For example, the shell that fell at Hornblower's feet from the rigging: I missed this on the tv, but in the book F describes how the only thing H can do is pull out the fuse; diving for cover or throwing it over the side is not an option, however tempting, because (a) it won't stop him being killed or injured and (b) it will damage the ship and injure the crew and (c) it will seriously impair his ship's fighting capacity. He is embarrassed and puzzled by being taken as a hero simply for doing what any sensible man would have done.

Another example: in Brown on Resolution, set in WWI, Brown, a rating, is stranded on a small island when his ship is sunk by a German ship. Instead of surrendering, he turns sniper and picks off as many of the enemy as he can; even though he knows he is likely to be caught and shot, or abandoned to starve to death: not to continue to fight isn't an option, any more than it would be on board ship.

I think F wanted to show how fine qualities are present in most of us, only coming to the fore in extreme situations: "bringing out the best", as the platitiude has it. O'Brian's characters, on the other hand, are all slightly larger than life: they are all "characters", albeit highly creditable ones; and more like real life for being less idealised.

How about George McDonald Fraser's Flashman?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 07:19 AM

I find this series rather vacuous, isnt it rather a chocolate box production,but I did stumble across the filming of some of this latest series whilst walking my dog Snowie at Three Mills (an eighteenth century former gin distillery powered by the largest surviving water powered mill in Britain) here in east London last summer.....

Regards.

Jim Clark..
acoustic musicians and poets sound archive

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:35 AM

Shannon and Chesapeake


Forrester also wrote The Captain From Connecticut about , well you can work it out.
I liked Brown On Resolution except that he had been saved by the Germans he turned on, and abused the trust of some crewmen to escape.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:56 PM

Steve - the shell thing was a lot better in the book. I don't think it very likely that a howitzer shell could be fired from a (long) cannnon and hit a small boat with the first shot and then land the second shell on the deck of a ship. Especially if the fuse sticks out about an inch, making accurate firing somewhat difficult. It looked like a cartoon bomb - it should've had 'bomb' written on the side!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:11 AM

The mortar shells of that era were basically fragmentation bombs shaped like flying saucers. The fuses were hollow quills filled with powder and calibrated to burn at a specific rate. If a bombshell arrived too soon either due to too long a fuse or defective powder, there might have been a significant length sticking out of it. The fuse had to have been burning actively or Hornblower would not have ruined his knit gloves when he snuffed it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:34 AM

If you look at the cap badge of the Grenadier Guards, it's a round thing with a flame coming out of the top. It's the same thing as the 18th c. shell: a hollow cast-iron ball stuffed with gunpowder and with a wooden plug fitted in the hole, and which contains the fuse. If fired from a gun, the gun's charge would light the fuse. I guess it was an anti-personnel thing, while the solid shot was meant to damage the ship.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Ian
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:41 AM

I would have thought that a bomb shell would be be feared on a wooden ship as it could set the ship on fire in several places at once due to the liberal coatings of tar, open barrels of powder (in battle state) etc,. Refer to The Flying Cloud _ a bomb shell set our ship on fire we had to surrender then.

For other fiction books see The Fox series I think by Hardy a NEL series.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:52 AM

I think the accuracy question is the one that throws the whole thing for me. As Les says, you couldn't hit a target first time - look at the accuracy of WWI - or WWII for that matter - guns which needed sevearl salvoes to get the range. And that was with rifled barrels and aerodynamically shaped shells.

Isn't the Grenadier Guards badge a grenade?

S

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:07 AM

Same thing, except for size, Schantieman! But accuracy wasn't a problem, since ships fought at very close range. And smoothbore weapons are still accurate, but over smaller ranges. Read Forester's The Gun!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:54 AM

I'm with Les from Hull on this. Maybe it's different in the book, but the TV film showed the first round landing in a boat at about 400 yards and the second in the ship, considerably further away. This would be extremely unlikely: the fuse and associated gubbins would make the shell spin - in an unpredictable plane - and this would produce a sideways force, making it travel in a curve. And they'd still have to get the range right first time. Twice.

I'll read the book though.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: HuwG
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:04 AM

Steve Parkes, Ian, I believe that shells were not used on ships prior to about 1820, because the shot was held in "garlands"; gratings with removable lids on the gun decks. The powder, being awfully dangerous stuff, was brought up from a magazine deep below the waterline (and therefore safe from enemy shot) by "powder monkeys", boys who scuttled up and down carrying at most four charges at a time.

If shell was to be used, the choice was between having the unfortunate monkeys clambering up the ladders while burdened with heavy shells (as a rough guide, the powder charge for a cannon was about one quarter of the weight of the shot or shell), or leaving lots of shells on the gun decks, where a chance hit could crack them open and cause an explosion.

The change over to shells on warships began with the advocacy of a Captain Paixhans of the French Navy, and was confirmed at Sinope in 1853, when the Russians set a Turkish squadron ablaze.



You are quite right; when firing a howitzer, the shell was loaded fuse-first so that firing the piece also ignited the fuse. When firing larger shells from mortars, the fuse was lighted manually first, then the mortar was fired. (There is a scene in the film, "Last of the Mohicans" which shows this.

The British Army only, during the Napoleonic Wars, used "spherical case-shot", the invention of a Lt. Shrapnel of the Royal Artillery. This was a shell which was stuffed with musket balls and a small amount of powder, and fired by the field and horse artillery on the battlefield. This would not have had any Naval application, so far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:20 AM

Any readers of this type of novel who also enjoy Science Fiction may enjoy the "Nicholas Seafort" series of novels by David Feintuch (Midshipman's Hope, Challenger's Hope, Prisoner's Hope, Fisherman's Hope, and Voices of Hope.) which seem (as the titles suggest) rather derivative! They come replete with strict discipline, and floggings over the barrel.

The compendium of short stories "Enterprise Logs" (various authors) is also a worthwhile read in this vein. The premise is the setting of a tale for a captain of each 'Enterprise', starting with a tale set in the American war of Independence, passing through WW II, and continuing with Star Trek stories.
I only picked this book up as it was remaindered at our local cheapo bookstore

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:26 AM

As regards the naval application of 'shot', this would be similar to rural use of a shot-gun. Grapeshot from a cannon would make up for its innacuracy by numerous small hits.
Where a single ball could not be expected to regularly un-mast a ship, grape-shot could do serious damage to sails by starting tears which the wind would then aggravate

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM

It's been a few years since I read the book, but I have a vague recollection that Forrester didn't explain where the shell had originated, just that it fell from one of the tops (pres. the mizzen, if it landed on the quarterdeck); and I wondered whether it had been fired from a gun or thrown by hand from a top on the other ship.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM

Ammunition in most common usage at sea during the Napoleonic Wars consisted of:

Round Shot - solid iron ball used to damage the hull of an enemy ship.

Chain-Shot - Solid iron balls linked with chain, used to damage masts, yards and rigging of an enemy ship.

Cannister or Grape Shot - Tin Cannisters filled with musket balls, used primarily against personnel.

Prior to 1820 the Royal Navy did employ vessels called Bomb Ketches in attacks against shore installations, these ships were armed with Mortars or Howitzers firing shells.

Nelson's maxim was for getting in as close as possible in any engagement. Weight of shot became all important, this led to the Royal Navy arming Frigates almost exclusively with carronades. These light guns fired very heavy shot (Victory's main armament consisted of long barrelled guns firing 32 pound shot, the carronades on Victory fired 64 pound shot). Although the weight of shot was greater carronades had much shorter range, the application of this philosophy meant that during the War of 1812, the Royal Navy's Frigates (normally 38 or 28 guns) were at a distinct disadvantage when they enountered the larger and more conventionally armed American Frigates (44 guns).

I have never heard of a 74-gun ship being described as a third rate. Agememnon at 64-guns was a third rate.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: HuwG
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:28 AM

GUEST, I think the Royal Navy's rating system went:

First Rate : Three decks, 100 guns + [e.g. HMS "Victory"]
Second Rate : Three decks, 90-100 guns
Third Rate : Two decks, 70-84 guns [would have included all 74's]
Fourth Rate : Two decks, ??-70 guns [would have included HMS "Agamemnon"]
Fifth Rate : Two decks, < 50 guns; there would have been precious few of these by 1800
             One deck, 30 guns+; this would have included almost all frigates, and several "razeed" ships-of-the-line, which had their main deck removed e.g. HMS "Majestic"
Sixth Rate : One deck, < 30 guns; sloops, corvettes, brigs-of-war etc.

However, I may well be wrong; and in any case the rating system underwent several incremental changes over the course of time and the steady advance in warship design.


Re-reading Forester's history of the War of 1812, gives a type of shot which used by the US Navy only, "Dismantling shot". This was six or seven iron bars, linked by a ring at one end, designed to cripple an enemy's rigging. When the USS "President" was trying to escape from New York in early 1815, this was used to break clear of HMS "Endymion", which, "had her sails stripped from her yards". (The "President" was shortly afterwards trapped by two other British warships; it had earlier been damaged by going aground).

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:53 AM

HuwG:

According to Nelson's biography he was appointed to command HMS Agememnon, a third rate of 64 guns.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:57 AM

Most of the series we have been reading describe mortar shells as being separately ignited with a linstock and fuse and then being quickly fired from the gun. Otherwise, explosive shells would not have been present on a ship of war in that era. The risks were too great.

I believe the rating of vessels would have actually begun frigates at 20 main deck guns, with sloops, etc. below this number. This would have allowed for a newly minted captain to simply have his ship upgraded by the addition of one gun per side. Remember the rating was based on the number of guns, not the number of gun ports. I would also be surprised if some enterprising commanders had not done the upgrade on their own simply for the sake of the extra, unofficial fire power.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 11:25 AM

Indeed, didn't Jack Aubrey have a couple on "long nines" of his own as bow-chasers?

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Schantieman
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 03:04 PM

Oh yes. Jolly useful they were too!

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:05 PM

Guest - That's new to me about frigates being 'armed almost exclusively with carronades'. This was true of many sloops (unrated vessels of fewer than 20 guns), but frigates retained their long gun armament (usually 12 or 18-pdrs), supplemented by carronades on the forecastle and quarterdeck, and often a pair of long guns on the forecastle as bowchasers. The American carronade-armed Essex came to a sticky end because she was armed on the gun deck with carronades.

The 38 gun RN frigates were armed with 18-pdrs and could not really compete with the larger 44 gun American frigates with 24-pdrs, which is why the Royal Navy rapidly built similar vessels (of pitch pine) and cut down three smaller third rates to make them into big frigates. Magestic, involved in the capture of USS President was one such. Endymion was a (built as) fourth rate frigate with 24pdrs, usually rated as a 44, and a 1795 copy of the French Pomone taken the previous year.

Might I heartily recommend David Lyon's 'The Sailing Navy List - all the ships of the Royal Navy, built, purchased or captured 1688 - 1860' published by Conway Maritime Press in 1993 at 60 of our English Pounds. Actually I've just noticed that my copy was in a limited edition of 1000 copies, but hopefully there's another printing. Thie title says it all - full details of everything bigger than a ship's boat.

HuwG - pretty close on ratings:

Third rates had 60 to 84 guns, but 64s were becoming rate at this time.

Fourth rates were very confusing. They had 40 to 60 guns, usually on two decks, but the very large 44 to 50 gun frigates with 24pdrs (similar to the big American frigates) were fourth rates. 44 gun frigates armed with 18 pdrs were fifth rates.

Fifth rates were frigates with 32 to 44 guns and sixth rates were ships of 20 to 30 guns, but only 28s were frigates. Smaller ships were just 'sixth rates' or 'post ships'. The French term 'corvette' only came into use in the Royal Navy after this period.

I concur with EBarnacle about ratings. It was sometimes possible to appoint a Master and Commander to a 20 gun ship by simply reclassifying it as a sloop. It would still have its original armament (nobody was daft enough to reduce its fighting power). Just the same a 'post ship' of 20 guns could become a sloop of 18 guns just by calling it so. It was then a command for a post captain.

The system also shows how many more 98 gun second rates there were than 100 gun first rates. If you rated the ship as a first rate you had to have additional officers, and pay them all slightly more! You could save some money by having them as second rates! HMS Victory was at various times a first rate and a second rate. Boyne and Union were later ships (1801) built to the same design but often rated 98 gun second rates.

Sorry to go on a such length, but the Sailing Royal Navy has been a passion of mine for at least 40 years.

Les

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 12:42 PM

Les from Hull, thanks for your comments.

Forester used the term, "corvette", of HMS "Cyane", captured by the USS "Constitution" late in the war. She was about the size of a twenty-eight gun frigate, but unlike frigates, carried a main armament which was almost exclusively of 32-pounder carronades. Forester says that the term was coming into use, but was not official.

It is accepted by Forester and others that the Royal Navy of 1812 shot fast but inaccurately; the US Navy shot fast and accurately. In some notable American victories (e.g. USS "United States" versus HMS "Macedonian"), the British were pounded to a wreck long before they came within carronade range.

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 01:33 PM

Cyane was officially a sixth rate 22 gun ship, launched in 1806. (Banterer class). She was about the same size as a 28 gun frigate of half a century before and originally carried 22 9pdrs and 8 24pdrs carronades with 2 long 6pdrs on forecastle as bow chasers. By the time of her fight with Constitution her 9pdrs had been replaced with 32pdr carronades and her 24pdr carronades by 18s.

There were very few actions between ships of equal force in the War of 1812. The Royal Navy had been used to beating larger ships of other navies, and so unwisely attacked 44 gun 24pdr frigates with 38 gun 18pdr frigates. But the American vessels were usually well-handled (unlike the French and Spanish, they went in for long cruises).

One of the major differences was that the American frigates had much thicker sides, which 18pdr shot would bounce off at long range. There was no such problem with 24pdr shot penetrating the thinner scantlings of the British frigates. Macedonian was badly handled in this respect. The only advantage she had was speed - she should have run away, but that wasn't the 'done thing'. Short of a lucky shot on bowsprit, wheel or rudder, she had no real chance. There were also reports that the United States fired two shots to the Macedonian's one, but whether this was at the beginning or the end of the action isn't obvious.

A word on crew quality (incidentally there were Americans and British sailors in both crews!), the Royal Navy was manning a vast navy at this time and its resources were spread thinly. The American Navy had only a few ships in commission, and so could keep them fully manned with prime seamen. When they expanded the Navy, the crew quality went down a bit (as in the Chesapeake, which lasted only 15 minutes against the well-trained Shannon).

I would also recommend 'The Naval War of 1812' by someone called Theodore Roosevelt (who I believe later occupied a position of some importance in the former colonies).

Subject: RE: BS: UK: Anyone taped Mondays Hornblower?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 09:42 AM

Les, have you got a copy of "The Frigates: An Account of the Lighter Warships of the Napoleonic Wars, 1793--1815," Author, James Henderson, CBE, copyright 1994? Interesting discussion of actions and vessels. He defines rated vessels as those requiring a Captain. According to his table at the back, a sixth rated was 20 to 24 main deck guns and the smallest frigate was 28 guns. If he's right then we've all been wrong in our definition of the marginal vessels.