Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?

Subject: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:04 AM

Here's my conundrum, I can't figure this out. It is connected to bass runs. This happens in many songs, but, for the hell of it, in Dylan's Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands, (in the key of D), the song begins:


With your mercury mouth in the missionary times


The notes of the song go up, D, E, F#, E, F#, G, G, A, G, F#, G, F#, E; while the bass run goes down, D, C#, B, etc. My concern is with this first little bit. The first chord is a D, duh, makes sense. The next chord (over "mouth") in the various transcriptions one can find has a A/C# (i.e. we have an A chord, with a C# note, which is part of the bass run going from D, down to C#, then to B). My question: How come an A chord? Or an A7 chord. There is no F# in an A chord, or in an A7 chord. What do a C# and an F# have to do together, with an A chord? I see this over and over again in this kind of song. Am I missing something? yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:10 AM

Peter, the C# is the third of an A7 chord. The F# (sometimes thought of as a sixth of the A major scale) is added to the 7th in the A7 chord to form a 13th. F# is the 13th of the A7 chord thus making a chord based on A7....an A13th.

Now you might ask the question, what's a thirteen doing in a folk song that only uses major, minors or sevenths? The answer is that the harmony is implied in the notes of the melody.

Frank

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:11 AM

I forgot to add that I was wondering if it had something to do with F# minor being the minor of the key of A, since F# minor contains a C#.
Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

Thanks, Frank, the murk clears a bit. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:15 AM

I think of it more in terms of the note itself than the chords. An A and a C# together will harmonise with either an E or an F#, in the right context. As a passing note in a bass run, the brief F#m you create is a real chord and it doesn't matter that it's a bit over the top for a simple melody because it's not drawn out or plucked.

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:26 AM

It's a 'intellecktal ploblem' o the brain assuming since there is a unified theory of Chords, music as played is the same thang.

It ain't.

On the same instrument Chords do behave more or less like the theories, Ie playing a C# over C Major sounds like a cat in a coffee can, BUT if the same combination is played on unrelated instruments eg., voice and string, then the effect can be very beautiful.

I suspect, but since I am not a an expert, that we have the tendency to 'think' way too much about these things.

BTW An interesting comparrison is mixing colors in Art, in fact theory
is a bad case of the urge to explain stopping us from hearing, or playing ... the real thang.

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:31 AM

For some of us, not knowing the why and wherefore blocks forward movement, especially if you are trying to get a handle on some of the theory. It is possibly a flaw. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:08 PM

Peter,

Your instinct about the relative minor is correct. Regardless of the details from a diatonic analysis, the note "evokes", if I may use that word, the relative minor of D (Bm) and its dominant (F#m). This triad is one that Dylan was terribly fond of because it is kind of poetically mysterious sounding or something. Just try running from G to Am to Am-open-on-the-second-fret (Bm) and you'll find the mystery to scores of Dylan tunes.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:55 PM

Hi Peter,

Not if F# is played along with an A7 chord. It's definitely intended then as a 13th. In the early days of music it would have been considered a passing tone. But later in classical music of the nineteenth century it would have become frozen in the chord.

Frank

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 04:14 PM

BTW if you put an F#minor chord along with an A7 chord, you will have the semblance of an "A Dominant Thirteenth" chord.
Try it with two guitars. Have one play an F#minor and the other play an A7. Or to put it another way, V7 (+) IIIm (=) V13.

Frank

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:03 PM

Continuing thanks. yours, Peter T. (I am A minor compared with those of you who B major).

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 12:49 PM

Never mind, as long as you C sharp, you'll never B flat.


A

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 12:52 PM

And the best is to always B natural!

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM

Seems the actual topic has gone a bit flat...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help!Music Theorists!Why Does This Work?
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 05:58 PM

Peter, please be careful. Analysing Bob Dylan's lyrics is one thing, but trying to find the hidden meaning in the notes of his songs is definitely a danger sign.

If it's fast, let it past. Art will last. Smoke some grass.

W-O