BS: We are ALL trolls!

Subject: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:18 PM

Hey there, you self-righteous prats! Yeah, it's you I'm talkin' to, Snidely Fingertapper. Every time you type those deathless words "don't feed the troll", I laugh. You know why? Because we are ALL trolls, that's why. We all enjoy the repartee, the give and take, sending out thought energy, and seeing what kind of reaction it raises in others. That's natural. We all enjoy expressing our own identity in our own way, and we troll for reactions to it.

The fact is, you just use the word "troll" to describe someone who is making a statement that annoys you in some way or doesn't suit the cut of your particular jib. It's like when George Bush calls someone a "terrorist" or Jerry Falwell calls someone a "sinner".

And we're all very clever, and we all know EXACTLY how to separate reality from unreality, don't we? Oh yeah, for sure.

There's clearly no use anyone telling us anything we don't already know, cos if we don't already know it, it ain't worth knowing!

So anyone who does is a troll. Like me and you. All trolls. Every damned one of us.

I enjoy trolling whenever it is for harmless humor, or what I believe is a worthy cause, or anything whatsoever that makes sense to me, and I will continue to enjoy it and do it. And so will you. So just admit it, and quit hassling other people for doing what you like to do.

I bet you don't like it when other people drive the way you do either.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: smallpiper
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:20 PM

Hee hee!

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:21 PM

Pretty far out, L. H. I don't consider those who identify themselves, who are members of the Mudcat community "trolls." You been smoking something?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: leprechaun
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:28 PM

Little Hawk is famous for not using drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:36 PM

Ahhh ...

Little Hawk the Feathered Troll   
Found only in Ontari-oll
Down many Mudcat paths did stroll
Yet ne'er a joint he 'ere did roll!

Hee hee   

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:38 PM

That's true, leprechaun. I find drugs boring and silly. Really silly, in fact.

I'm saying, Doug, that anyone who throws out a thought, fishing for a reaction, is trolling, and we all do it. It is normal to troll. We check back to see what response we have gotten. That's trolling.

I don't give a hang if someone is a member or not. If he has something interesting to say, I'm interested. If not, what difference does it make if he's a member or not? The thing I like about members is that I get to know them as time goes by, and that's neat. But I see no reason to be prejudiced against nonmembers.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: leprechaun
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:49 PM

There are plenty of non-members who aren't kookballs. Of course they're welcome. But real trolling is a matter of degree. Certainly Little Hawk will measure the kookiness of a thread from a different starting point than Doug or I might. But lately I haven't seen anybody slag on any guest who submits a post in good-faith.

Bi-polar GUEST has never done that. He's obviously just doing that raving lunatic thing for the fun of it, and the rest of us are just playing with him. It's all in good fun.

Trollness is like obscenity. I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:50 PM

Bullhshit, LH. Those of us who use regular identities are not looking for conversation, opinions, etc. with the express intentions of what is commonly referred to as an internet "troll." You are just trying to put a new spin on discussing a very old and tiring subject. Please read further, from this site:

An internet troll is someone who fishes for people's confidence and, once found, exploits it. Whilst the vast majority of internet users are bona fide, there are undoubtedly some trolls out there.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:53 PM

I think it is trolling when you say something you know is likely to provoke other people for the sake of provoking them, when you don't actually believe what you say, or don't really care too much one way or the other.

There are times when this can be done in fun - "Fish and chips are a disgusting English perversion" someone might say, in the hope of provoking some tongue in cheek banter and recrimination. (One might have thought a crack like "Why are Americans so fat?" would fall into the same category - but it doesn't, so we have to be a bit careful sometimes about causing genuine offence when we were just joshing.)

But it can be done in a more serious and more damaging ways. And when it is, it is a pretty fair bet that the person doing it will do it from the shadows.

I'd say that saying what you believe, about things that matter to you, is not trolling, even when the person saying it knows that other people will wish to argue with it, or might be angry with it.

But here too I believe that we owe it to other people to argue without insulting those with whom we disagree, and to do so in the open (which needn't mean fully identifying ourselves, but should enable our posts to be distinguished from other people's posts by means of some kind of label).

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:54 PM

"There is no need for drugs or drink,
for Little Hawk, to make you think,
For seeing whay that man can do,
Compos Mentis, it's up to you !"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 07:03 PM

Right. Now we're getting somewhere. So, the vital thing is this: what are the conscious intentions of the troll?

If those intentions are to do real harm, cause trouble, mislead people...then yes, I do find that objectionable. Such things are done by both members and guests...on occasion.

But usually the people accussed of "trolling" are not doing that, they are just expressing a view someone else doesn't happen to like.

And, Kat, you're right...it's an old and tired subject...which will always remain with us, just like the pretentious attitude of some of the veteran membership here, who feel they must chime in and show how very mature and superior they are by saying things like: "don't feed the troll" , whenever it's a subject they can't relate to.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: mack/misophist
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 07:53 PM

I can say nothing about Little Hawk, never having met the man. As for myself, I was once 6 feet tall and never carried a club professionally. Ergo - I am not a troll. But Nixon WAS a crook.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Cluin
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:00 PM

Right!

Please pass the manflesh, please. Bert, William, and Tom is hungry. Them hobbits wuz just appy-tizers.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: stevetheORC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:01 PM

OY LH how dare you call me a bloody 'TROLL' im a ruddy 'ORC' ther is a difference you know lets get our species right :0))

ORC'S Rule OK

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:16 PM

You Orcs are in big trouble, Steve. Now that Febig has joined up with the Elves your days are numbered. I predict that Shatnir is going to fry you all up like a bunch of crispy critters.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: leprechaun
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM

And violate the prime directive? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:30 PM

*sigh*..'troll' has a specific meaning in usenet and on the WWW. If you try to broaden it to refer to anyone who tosses out an opinion, you lose all referents. Like " I ain't never heard a horse sing one, so it must be folk"

"trolling" is baiting people into a debate, usually with extreme positions, then shifting the argument to dare responders to prove them wrong and changing the point as often as needed....and if the troll can everyone get ELSE arguing among themselves, so much the better!

You wanta see one of the best examples in the universe? Do a search at Google groups for "Andy Mabbett"....a true 'super-troll', and a rare one who is not anonymous. You could spend a week just reading in awe how many groups he has stirred up and how infamous he is. (Yes...you have far better things to do, I am sure, but if your curiosity and time come together...be amazed..)

now...am **I** a troll for posting this? LH? *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Chip2447
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:29 PM

Ahem...don't feed the trolls...

Chip2447(who avoids the traps laid by ijeets)

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:24 AM

Andy sounds like the troll's troll, Bill. :-)

Chip - Thanks! You have now proven it. We are ALL trolls by someone else's definition. Not Bill's, maybe...not Kat's, maybe...but someone's. Tonight I am a troll by your definition. Knowing this makes me feel all warm inside.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:43 AM

That's because you pissed your pants LH.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:59 AM

LOL! Best laugh I've had tonight, Spaw. For a guy who doesn't appreciate the Shatman, you can be pretty amusing.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Oaklet
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:14 AM

Little Hawk, I have knitted you a scarf.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: CapriUni
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:38 AM



Little Hawk, sir, you are a Pro-Fun Troll!

I, myself, was first given that title in the newsgroup rec.arts.drwho in February of 2000. During that time, the ongoing debate over the relative merits of the Doctor Who lead actors Jon Pertwee and Sylvester McCoy was at one of its most heated periods, with the two sides labeling each other "Pro-___ Trolls." When I made the statement that I came on to newsgroup to have fun rather than argue, someone gave me the title Pro-fun troll, and in that instant, an alter-ego popped into existance beside me.

I posted the following "manisfesto" on March 12, 2000:

A "troll" is someone who goes "trolling" on the Internet, or in other words, fishing for responses, just because. I, too, am a troll. I spend a good deal of my day composing posts that I hope will get me noticed, and will get people to talk to me, and notice how witty I am.   

Some trolls try to achieve this goal by talking about what they don't like (or who they don't like, or both). Oddly enough, these trolls seem to like being poked and insulted -- while they complain loudly at this treatment, they also giggle at the same time, and wiggle their toes.

I, on the other hand, am a different sub-species of troll. I am a Pro-Fun Troll. I will only talk about what I do like, and I'd rather be tickled pink then poked with a stick. Unfortunately, Pro-Fun Trolls are a rather shy bunch (not unlike Wombles), and we don't defend our territories very well, so that sometimes, the Complaining Trolls take over.

Well, I, for one, have decided to try something new: I'm putting my rather enormous foot down, and defend my little piece of territory. And the first part of that is to come out into the open and call very loudly to other Pro-Fun Trolls:

"LET'S SEE IF WE CAN TAKE OVER THE WEEKLY STATS!"

Let's see how many varied, on-topic, positive Doctor Who threads we can maintain this week, and next week, and the week after that. Let's see how many lurkers we can coax into the open to join us. Are you out there? Are you game?

I know you can't see me through the computer screen, so here's a discription:

___

Since, as I said, Pro-Fun Trolls are shy, I'll help you get to know me by describing what I look like:

I stand three feet tall, and my girth is 90 inches. My nose is two feet long (and so are my feet). My skin is a lovely, clear shade of avacado green.

I'm wearing a conical paper hat that's electric fuscia in color, with the words "Happy Birthday" written on it in bright purple (It's always Somebody's birthday, so I have to be prepared). I've got rings on my fingers, and bells on my toes.

I'm wearing a fishing vest that I've embroidered with gold thread and beads. It's pockets are all dimensionally transcendental like the Doctor's (this vest is actually a spare of his that never quite fit, so he gave it to me), and inside each one are little odds and ends I've picked up throughout my life. I don't know what half of them are for, but I'm convinced that I can make wonderful playthings out of them, or that they'll inspire a story, or draw the thumb out of a shy child's mouth.

:::Reaching into a pocket:::

Let's see, what do we have here?

:::Pulls out a shimmering silver cube that somehow seems to shift about like an animated Escher print:::

Well, I'll be! It's a working model of a tesseract! And there's something written on it: "To GrANFAtER, LOV SuSAN"

I say -- what do you make of that?! I'd better get this back to him.

Since then, I'm proud to say, the term "Pro-Fun Troll" is now recognized by a fair-sized minority of on-line Doctor Who fans... Like the caterpillar in Alice In Wonderland, we are expanding the definition of "Troll" because we choose to use it that way.

So, LH, what color birthday hat do you want? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:45 AM

It's about the intent behind the statements. LH gives an extreme definition of Troll - and by that definition we can all get caught. In practice, LH's threads are often tongue in cheek - and because we all recognise him - we treat them in that spirit. The ones which cause us upset are those in which some anonymous creep hurls spiteful comments at someone or something for which it is known others hold great affection. There is a line to be drawn between the clear - and even passionate expression of one's own beliefs and the deliberate provocation of those of others. I am unlikely to become convinced by much of the politics of Uncle Jaque and Doug R, but they are not rude people and are doing nothing worse than expressing their opinions. I have no problem with that. Trolls are something else.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: stevetheORC
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:28 AM

LOL that was very funny (CapriUni:0))
AS for Shitner he has no chace me im wid de Borg, LH the warm feeling is a preminition of when we stuff yous in de big coook Pot Heeee Heeee

Today Mudcat
Morrow de World
Next watsit de Univese

ORC'S RULE ALL

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: leprechaun
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:45 AM

Let me know how that world domination thing is going for you Orc. Sure you seem like a relatively nice fellow, and surprisingly articulate for an orc. It's just that I'm not the only one who's noticed - the vast majority of you Orcs have the "hand to hand combat skills of a field of alfalfa." (Dave Barry)

Kevin

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: CapriUni
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:01 AM

From Bill D:

*sigh*..'troll' has a specific meaning in usenet and on the WWW. If you try to broaden it to refer to anyone who tosses out an opinion, you lose all referents. Like " I ain't never heard a horse sing one, so it must be folk"

Well, yes... But have you ever noticed just how many regular words in the English language have several different meanings, or have a range of meanings from extremely broad to extremely narrow?

Take the simple word "egg" for example. To keep things simple, let's stick with the noun, and avoid going into all the idiomatic phrases using the term. In my American Heritage Dictionary, I found the following (paraphrased mostly from memory):

egg¹: 1) a. The female gamete, an egg cell. b. The reprductive body of various animals, including insects, fish, mollusks, birds reptiles and amphimpians, who all lay the egg outside the body, and mammals, who lay it inside a womb. c. The oval, thin shelled gamete of a bird, used as food. 2) Anything shaped like an egg (that would be definition "1.c", by the way) and 3)a person -- as in "He's a good egg."

According to the derivation given, when the word came into Middle English, it meant only a bird's egg. But as our understanding of the world and biology expanded over the years, that first and only meaning slipped down to third, and had a few odd generalizations trailing after it -- without losing "all referents."

My personal definition of "Troll" is a little bit narrower than Little Hawk's, but broader than yours. As I see it, an "Internet troll" is someone who doesn't just tosses out an opinion to the world, but who:

Deliberately composes and posts messages to an online forum with the intent of shaping or changing the tone of an established community by provoking others into responding to the troll and to each other.

The easiest, and therefore most common, method of achieving this goal is to (try to) use the tactics of people like Andy Mabbet. But those are not the only tactics. Pro-fun tactics also work (we indeed took over the Weekly Stats in RADW for several months, and held our own for several more until the stats were no longer posted). But they just take a little more imagination and energy and a lot more perseverence. And therefore, pro-fun trolls are most successful when they work in packs, while complaining and nasty trolls hunt best alone.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM

Hawk,
If everyone is a troll then no one is a troll.

The problem with being too inclusive in defining a word is that you essentially "lose" that word. We often use words to make useful and/or necessary distinctions. The distinctions are the sort that have to be made whatever words we end up using and if we throw out a word we just have to find or coin another.

There's nothing inherently wrong with defining trolling as
"...sending out thought energy, and seeing what kind of reaction it raises in others... expressing our own identity in our own way..."
But if you do so you just have to come up with another word for
"...sending out thought energy with the express purpose provoking negative reactions from others"

These are two very different activities and it is quite useful to have different words for them. Saves keystrokes for example.

If you've already got a word that works, why fix it?

Russ (chronic and unrepentant "GUEST")

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:07 PM

Don't think you could find a better definition of troll than the one currently trolling in the space shuttle thread. I agree that we shouldn't be so open-minded that our brains fall out. To me, trolling isn't about the identity/anonymity of the person doing it, but the intention behind it. Many reasonable people remain anonymous in one way or another online.

When the intention is clearly vicious, as the troll over in the space shuttle is, that is where I draw the line.   I guess I would use the "no reasonable person" standard, knowing that there are a lot of unreasonable idiots masquerading as reasonable people.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: stevetheORC
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:19 PM

We is in der prosses of signing up a certin GWB of der US of A to be our spokesperson so world domination is going verrry well.
As for you my littl Lepperson you ever tried fighting a field of Alfalfa?? Ha Ha got you wid dat one!!

ORC'S is sneaky B"&£$!*+$ so dont be foold by der sivilised veeneer

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: leprechaun
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:25 PM

I've enlisted my lawnmower.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:32 PM

It's a very good thing that Orcs lack finesse with edged weapons, otherwise someone very much like George Bush would have taken over this Earth long ago, and we'd be up the proverbial creek with no paddle. Orcs also fight among themselves over any excuse whatsoever, which Elves do not do, and that has greatly reduced their effectiveness, thanks to the gods of MiddleMax!

Russ - That is a truly brilliant zen statement:

"If everyone is a troll then no one is a troll."

And it sort of sums up the point I was trying to make, actually. I see nothing wrong with trolls who are not deliberately destructive or obnoxious. So it's destructiveness and obnoxiousness I object to, not trolls. We may have different ideas about what is or is not obnoxious, of course, but that's the general drift of it.

In the same fashion, I think people should not be prosecuted for drug USE...but for antisocial things they do WHEN using drugs...or not. It's the actual behaviour that always concerns me, not the label. I say this because I've known hundreds of casual drug users in my life, even thousands, who were essentially completely harmless people who never hurt anyone except themselves to some extent (and people who overeat or don't exercise enough hurt themselves too...that's their business, not mine).

I shudder inwardly when I see people lighting up cigarettes...but if I don't have to breathe that smoke in some confined space with them, then it's up to them what they do with their time.

Cigarettes are far worse than marijuana in their cumulative effect on the average person, mostly cos people smoke 'em almost continuously, and the manufacturing process fills them with carcinogens.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:42 PM

" Russ - That is a truly brilliant zen statement:

"If everyone is a troll then no one is a troll."

".'troll' has a specific meaning in usenet and on the WWW. If you try to broaden it to refer to anyone who tosses out an opinion, you lose all referents"

I guess the difference between 'truly brillant zen statements' and just plain, boring analysis is how many words one uses and their positioning...*wry grin*

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:22 PM

This is very hurtful to someone with a delicate and sensitive nature like mine.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:39 PM

I just bet it is, Hrothgar. The question is, who gives a flying f.....?!

Oops.

Bill - Hey, you should know by now that I find philosophy much more engaging than counting how many angels there are on the head of a pin. Counting angels just requires a good memory. And then? Big deal. Effective philosophy requires independent thought and creative analysis, allied with a good memory.

I see people frequently misusing the term "troll" here, according to your strict definition of the term, and I am drawing notice to that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:45 PM

I'm a little surprised that no one thought to consult Mr. Webster. Most Mudcatters would be proud to call themselves trolls by this definition. I know I would.

"3 : to sing or play in a jovial manner"

In answer to LH's introductory post, Which clearly and example of internet trolling, I am not Troll. You might be justified in saying I have fished in these waters, but I haven't trailed my bait here in quite some time.

Of course, when I did, I landed the greatest prize of all. A tasty morsel called CarolC.




Main Entry: 1troll
Pronunciation: 'trOl
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English
Date: 15th century
transitive senses
1 : to cause to move round and round : ROLL
2 a : to sing the parts of (as a round or catch) in succession b : to sing loudly c : to celebrate in song
3 a : to fish for by trolling b : to fish by trolling in (troll lakes) c : to pull through the water in trolling (troll a lure)
intransitive senses
1 : to move around : RAMBLE
2 : to fish by trailing a lure or baited hook from a moving boat
3 : to sing or play in a jovial manner
4 : to speak rapidly
- troll·er noun

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Matt_R
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:54 PM

WOW, Little Hawk sure has changed from the Dylan-loving master of rhetoric I used to know.

I am Olog-hai.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:45 PM

An early troll sighting:
1616- Sheriff Court, Shetland: The said Catherine for airt and pairt of witchcraft and sorcerie, in hanting and seeing the trollis ryse out of the kyrk yard of Hildiswick. OED

Scandinavians regarded trolls with favor. Goblin men with vast powers of work and skilful production.

Borrowed from Old Norse and Swedish troll, Danish trold. In Shetland and Orkney, it survived from the Norse dialect formerly spoken there. The quotation at the top is the first known in English, and it did not appear again until the 19th century.

In Old French, it means to quest or hunt (hence trolling for fish). This is what Little hawk is espousing.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:05 AM

Mighty proud...
You have learned lesson well grasshopper

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: CapriUni
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 02:58 PM

Earlier in this thread, I argued that there is more than one kind of Troll... that along with the nasty trolls, there are also "pro-fun" or "joyful" trolls.

It's an idea I'm still trying to get into the general culture; I will admit it's an uphill battle, especially when the troll from "Billy Goats Gruff" is the first image that pops into many people's heads when they come across the term. But I'm not giving up.

That's all well and good, I hear you say, but why refresh this old thread now?

Because the other day, I made a little interactive quiz thing that I hope is rather fun, and that I'm rather proud of. And I want to share it, and this seemed the most apropriate spot. It can be found here:

What kind of joyful troll are you? (it says that the quiz was made by Eloise -- that's my trollish alter-ego, the little green troll pictured in the upper left). I'm thinking of expanding the lists of special skill and flamewar-defusing methods -- the sillier the better. Got any ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: jimmyt
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 03:12 PM

How do you manage to come up with a controversy on such a benign observation as my ole buddy Little Hawk has made? I think you are on to something, LH, but my impression is that you are neither little or a hawk, therefore, you are probably in real life, a troll. Let's get a beer.   jimmyt

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 03:24 PM

I'ver always had a soft spot for the billy-goats-gruff troll, the "ucky-pucky" as my son and his cousin used to call him.

I mean, there you are getting your head down after some heavy trolling, and trip-trap over the ricketty-racketty bridge comes the little buggers, all perky and bright. No wonder he's a bit on the grouchy side.

But you'll note, in the way it's normally told, it's the troll who is the one who has a song to sing. He's a folkie all right.

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 03:25 PM

The basic truism is that we are all in the game for the purpose of creating some sort of effect. Some of us are just a little more particular about what kind of effect we want to create. Create the wrong one and you don't get paid in good oldfashioned admiration, oh no....you get handed a wad of funny looks and bad vibes, man. Obviously not what we're in the entertainment business to collect!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 03:26 PM

Hey, Jimmy, make mine a glass of white wine (German or Canadian) and it's a deal. As for the name, well, I am a small-boned person and light in weight, but I'm reasonably tall (5' 10"). The "little" label is therefore partially accurate. As for the "hawk" part, a hawk has keen vision and is (in the ancient traditions) a messenger. I am said by some to have keen spiritual or philosophical vision (while I am said by others to be a pain in the @$$... :-) well...it depends who you talk to. And I do deliver a message to people through songs and writing, so I am a messenger. So hawk fits.

So, you get the beer, I'll get the wine, and we can enjoy this fine summer day.

I am a friendly troll most of the time.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: CapriUni
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 04:35 PM

I'ver always had a soft spot for the billy-goats-gruff troll, the "ucky-pucky" as my son and his cousin used to call him.

I mean, there you are getting your head down after some heavy trolling, and trip-trap over the ricketty-racketty bridge comes the little buggers, all perky and bright. No wonder he's a bit on the grouchy side.

Indeed. And what's his horrible crime? He wants to eat the goats.

Yes, that's very bad indeed for the three goats.

But how does the story end?

With the three growing all fat and sleek on the sweet grass ...

How much would you wager that there is a human herdsman at the other side "the end", waiting to deal the goat brothers the very same fate the troll himself had in mind?
---

I have a collection of Scandinavian folktales, and find it interesting how many different interpretations of trolls there are in the lands of their origin.

Norway (the source for Billy Goats Gruff) has the darkest view of trolls.

In Sweden, they're a little more ambivalent. In Swedish stories, the trolls are ancient inhabitants of the land, and get really upset when humans come in, chop down trees and put up churches (the ringing of church bells hurts their ears), but it is still possible for church leaders to say the right prayers and therefore come to an agreement with the troll clans.

In tales where the human protagonists are farmers and peasants, the trolls are strict but generous business partners -- richly rewarding those who honor the bargains they enter into, and leaving cheaters and lazy folk in poverty. In tales where the human protagonists are merchants and city folk, trolls are depicted as evil tricksters who kidnap humans, force them to steal from merchants, and then leave them mad...

I get the feeling that the class and social station of the storyteller play a big part in how the trolls are portrayed, and the "lower" classes are friendlier to them.

In otherwords, I think you're right: Trolls are folkies!

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 11:03 PM

Yeah - that's it - I'm a joyful troll!

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Let me go and let's kick some more A----!

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 17 Aug 03 - 04:11 AM

Allright. I can accept that we're all trolls. That doesn't mean that we have to start living under bridges waiting for goats or anything, does it?

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: gnomad
Date: 17 Aug 03 - 04:25 AM

Don't HAVE to, but surely we can, if we want?

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 17 Aug 03 - 04:30 AM

LH, while I agree with the common definition of trolling, you make a good point. There have been Mudcat threads where people have been mistaken for trolling. When it became obvious they were just asking a simple, legitimate question, with no harm intended, 'Catters, to their credit, responded apologetically. The point here is intent, and how it is expressed, and that's why the lines between legit questioning and trolling can sometimes be hard to recognise.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: We are ALL trolls!
From: CapriUni
Date: 17 Aug 03 - 11:44 AM

. I can accept that we're all trolls. That doesn't mean that we have to start living under bridges waiting for goats or anything, does it?

Well, Eloise, my trollish alter-ego, does have a home under a bridge (it's actually built underground, dug into the river bank, and is quite spacious inside -- for her, but then, she's only 3'4" -- the bridge just acts as a roof for her door), but she spends most of her life living in a TARDIS with a Timelord named Florestan...

(Don't give me those looks! The Pro-Fun Troll movement began in online fora dedicated to Doctor Who!) ...

And the looks get wierder...