BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school

Subject: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: mg
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 09:56 PM

I hope that this inspires everyone reading it to contact the police chief of Mt. Pleasant Utah, as well as the school board and the community paper.


The gist of it is that some high school champion wrestlers took a younger, smaller boy, pinned him against a locker and shaved his groin. The idiot principal suspended the boys for 2 days and I think they can't wrestle in a tournament.

I saw red when I read this. I worked for years in Seattle schools, before the reforms of General Stanford, and this is the sort of response to crimes that they had...basically nothing. You could get worse suspensions for spitting.

I doubt the principal called the police. I'll have to reread this. A school should not be a sanctuary for crimes. I have worked in those that were. I am currently fighting a situation on city buses where high school students are so pornographic in their discussions that it constitutes sexual harassment and child abuse for younger children.

I urge everyone to check this out further and act in some way. The social costs of bullying, especially combined with sexual harassement, which if this isn't I don't know what is, are enormous. The desire of school officials to not deal with this is overwhelming, or was when I worked in schools.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: mg
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 09:58 PM

clicky didn't work

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,455029780,00.html

click here

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:12 PM

Mary, as I read the aricle you posted, they were suspended for ten days, pending additional action, and a decision on criminal charges is pending.

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:18 PM

Same thing happened to Bush 40 years ago and now we gotta live with him going around the world and have our kids whack folks...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: mg
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:20 PM

true...due to pressure. The original "punishment" wasn't even the 2 day suspension. It was a warning that they would be in serious trouble if something like that happened again. The principal should have called the police the minute he was notified of a crime. Parents, if your children are assaulted on school grounds, call the police immediately. Don't assume the schools will handle it. I have worked for them and no offense to those who are good at what they do, but I have seen my share of dimwitted people there. mg

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:56 AM

Hi Mary,

Reading through what you have posted and the linked material you have supplied, it would appear that the Principal's initial handling of the incident was extremely poor. Whether his attempts to put a cap on it was influenced by the fact that the two attackers were part of a representative team about to take part in a State championship, in no way excuses his actions.

What should have been done IMO is as follows:

1. Immediate suspension for both boys for a period of two weeks to allow the incident to be investigated.

2. Letters to the parents of all parties involved giving an outline of the incident and detailing possible repercusions from the incident, i.e. that of criminal charges being brought.

3. Immediate expulsion of both boys from the Wrestling squad and an enforced ban on either playing any other representative sport for the school.

4. Report the incident to the local police authorities. Whether or not criminal charges would be brought would rest with the victim and his parents making a formal complaint.

In the article mention was made about a perception that the "whole wrestling team was being punished". This of course is hooey - I am amazed that any of the wrestling team would wish to be associated with these cowardly bullies.

While I was in the Navy, we were always told of a concept called "Consequential Punishment". This basically boils down to the fact that if a serving officer or man is charged with any offence, be it civil or criminal, outwith naval jurisdiction, that officer or man would be subject not only to the penalty of civilian law, but also to consequential punishment under Queens Regulations Royal Navy. The Navy taking the view that you should have known better and, through your actions, you have brought discredit to Her Majesty's Armed Forces so we will punish you for that. The system worked extremely well. These two have just bumped into the same sort of thing, that should be clearly explained to them so that they can reflect on it at leisure.

Hope you keep us updated on the outcome.

The article also makes reference to these boys coming from locally influential families - I have no way of knowing know what either of these boys fathers views on the incident are - I know that if it was a son of mine I would be bitterly ashamed of his conduct.

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:22 AM

We had a sexual assault occur in the high school where I worked a couple years ago, but it was football players.

The charges in the case in our school were more serious, but I can tell you what the school administrators here did, that is applicable to this case too.

Immediate suspension (I wouldn't say how long, as this is usually a district policy) according to district policy.

The police should have immediately been notified by the school authorities to come to the school and conduct an investigation, including questioning of students. This was a sexual assault, not sexual harrassment. The police obviously think so too, although it is difficult to understand why these two haven't already been arrested. I'd say the local police department has something to answer for in regards to foot dragging as well.

All the parents should have been called and told to come to school immediately. When I say "immediately" I mean the day that the school authorities were notified or first thing the following morning (after the police completed an investigation). A social worker should also have been brought in immediately to deal with the psychological issues all three boys and their families faced. This is definitely a situation that requires mandated counseling.

The two boys should have been thrown off all sports teams, and any other extra-curriculars they participate in, for the remainder of the school year.

At the public meeting at our school over the sexual assault (a girl was raped), I can't tell you the number of parents stood up to defend the boys, and complain that "their lives might be ruined, and they wouldn't get their football scholarships. Well, they didn't get football scholarships in this case, because they were both prosecuted for the assault, and got jail time with probation.

Very sad case.

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:40 PM

Mary, legally what has happened is a criminal action, sexual harrasment & sexual assault carrying, the school is by law legally bound to protect students from this. The parents should bring criminal charges. Allowing these actions to continue with out the full force of the law is one of the reasons that victims relive the situation for the rest of their lives. A good many blame themselve (espically when an adult says the victims usually have some part in it...see the Catholic Priests). When justice is served it helps to heal & sends a message to a school system that allows this to happen that this behavior WILL STOP. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:55 PM

I noted the way the paper appeared to be trying to trivialise this criminal assault by calling it "hazing". Except they didn't even put it in inverted commas.

Now would it have been treated in that kind of way if it had been a girl who was assaulted? I'd hope it would have been more likely to have been recognised as a kind of rape, which is what it reads as being in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:57 PM

I am firmly in the belief that equal force to defend oneself from attack at school is aceptable behavior. In all the schools in my area it is not acceptable behavior to fight even in your own defense. Both fighters will be expelled immmediately.

I think this is horse shit.

I would further state that it is the responsibility of any student to fight back when attacked. Bullys should not be tolerated by anyone. And since the schools won't do anything about bullies It falls to the students to defend themselves. Schools will expell both combatants anyway. The right or wrong of the defender is not at issue. It is as if the schools would prefer to see a student injured by a bully rather than having to deal with two or more combatants and try and sort out the right and wrong side.

I asked my brothe, a school administrator about this policy. his reply was, "WE simply can't have fighting in the halls."

When I asked him "How about serious injury or homicide in the halls?"
He said "We would hope it won't come to that."

Teach your kids to be fair and respectful and to defend themselves. Run if you have to, fight if you must.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:23 PM

As someone who works in the schools, I fully support the suspension of all students involved. First, there are too many conflicting stories about "what happened" to be able to sort it out with any fairness. Second, the same kids tend to be the fighters. They also have a lot of other school-related issues that keep them in the administrators offices day in and day out. Many of them are also involved with the juvenile justice system for crimes outside school.

That is the reality of schools today. I good friend of mine had neurological problems as a result of trying to break up a fight, which lasted for almost a year (she had been thrown to the floor trying to break up a fight, and knocked unconcsious).

I agree, kids do need protecting. But so do the staff and administrators. They ought to receive combat pay.

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:24 PM

I found this particularly sickening:

"The only reason we're here is because we've got a championship wrestler among the accused," said Bruce McDougal, attorney for one of the wrestlers. He claimed three other serious sexual harassment incidents had occurred this year at the high school and the longest suspension had been three days.

As though serious cases are not really to be punished much anyway! Plus, should't a "champ" set an example and be a GOOD example? Whatever happened to that concept?!

Don, with all due respect, it would seem there wouldn't be much a 120 pounder could do against one of 275 pounds who also has a bruiser buddy helping out. In the case of rape, Unless a woman is well-trained in self-defense or martial arts, etc. it's a fact that she is better off not fighting during a rape because that usually incites the rapist to be more violent. Of course, then she is suspect for not fighting. I speak from exeprience; fighting him off got me thrown across a room and almost choked to death. Still, you have a good point; I don't know if I could have come through it so well, mentally, if I hadn't put up a fight.

The other thing which bothers me about this case is it says the perps are from "prominent families." I am not saying they are members of the LDS church, but most prominent folks are in Utah and they do have a reputation for closing ranks and protecting their own. I mean no offence to anyone who may be a member. I speak from experience in this case, too, having been married to an LDS member at one time and having grown up with so many friends and some relatives who are LDS.

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: Neighmond
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:27 PM

I am going to college for elementary education, and I fear I'll be the teacher that the students hope they don't get. I expect respect for others. I will settle for no less.

Were I to see such an audacious act of craven puppyhood, the offender(s) would be taken forthwith to the principal, where they would be made to wait while their parents came.

Immediately.

If their parents did NOT come within the hour, the police would be summoned,and they would be taken to juvinile hall.

They would be removed from all extracurricular (sp?) activities for the remainder of their school career. They would be expelled for the remainder of the term, and allowed back only after proper proceedings involving parents and authorities. And that is only a beginning.

This is the kind of doings that aggrevate my soul. They must be stopped, and if the parents refuse to dicipline their children than thay must be held to the bar as well. It from rotten, shiftless, and lazy parents that rotten children come into their inheiritance, all to often.

I've half a mind to write and tell this superintendant so, and I hope I am not the only one that does so.

Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM

Neighmond, if you are going to be teaching in an inner city school, I can tell you, you are in for quite a shock.

All fine in theory. But the administration won't back you up in the "I demand respect, and settle for nothing less" attitude. Because they can't. The parents are the problem, but not much will be done to them, I assure you.

And BTW, the line at the principal's office of kids who have been thrown out of class for "disrespect" is very long. Every day. Same kids over and over. They get passed along from one room to another, until the final bell rings, and the next day it starts all over again.

But despite all that, even the kids who are really disrespectful in their outbursts, I don't have a huge problem with, because of the deficit in life they are coming from with their home situations. Not because their parents are bad, but because their parents are broken human beings. I can't tell you how sad this is. I often find that those kids who act out the most, are some of the brightest, most sensitive kids in the room. But they have medical problems,psychological problems, etc all exacerbated by poverty.

It isn't going to be black and white at all when you get into the trenches, Neighmond. And these kids that society just wants to throw away, will break your heart with their beauty, their intelligence, their creativity, and their sensitivity. I swear to god.

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: leprechaun
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 10:12 PM

You have to keep in mind that the defense attorney's job is to help these kids get away with it if he can. Bruce McDougal "claimed three other serious sexual harassment incidents had occurred this year" but there was no further documentation of that in the article. Chances are it was a smokescreen.

However, the existence of attorneys like McDougal goes a long way toward explaining the apparent hesitance of school administrators and police. It might be more like circumspection on their part, to make sure the McDougals of the world can't come up with a plausible lie for their sleazy client's behavior.

The America criminal justice system is based on the concept of the plausible lie. That's why people are emboldened to commit criminal acts. First of, the police are too busy, so chances are they won't get caught. If the do get caught, they seem to fantasize having some smart lawyer get them off on a technicality. The rest of the fantasy involves suing the police for wrongful prosecution.

When you go after a criminal, you have to have all your ducks in a row.

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 10:18 PM

I wonder what happened to my post?

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 04:23 AM

If you're going to teach in an inner city school, I recommend you find and read a book called 'Never say Nigger' by Robert Kendall. You may want to change your career to something less stressful and dangerous, more meaningful and effective like, ooh... crash test dummy, but it's a true account of the dealing of a teacher in his first post in LA. It was written 38 years ago, but the situation doesn't seem to have changed much. In fact, from what I hear of the schools in the States and over here in some of our less affluent areas, it's got worse.

You cannot excuse these crimes by saying 'it's just children', 'it's a rite of passage thing in the club' or 'we are aware there is a problem and will be taking steps'. I was bullied at school, I've been assaulted and I've been bullied at work. It's not until someone stamps good and hard on the bullies that the behaviour stops. With the present 'politically correct behaviour' and 'human rights' rulings, it is nearly impossible to enforce rules. A colleague was bullied, took it through the greivance procedure, it was upheld and the bully told to give a written apology. The bully refused saying it was 'against his human rights' to have to apologise. The colleague is now totally dispirited because the "sentence" cannot be enforced, despite the positive verdict, and the whole procedure is a farce

If the punishment for these children is so minimal as to be laughable, then it sets a precedent for the future. If they are escaping criminal charges because of their backgrounds or perceived connections, then the system is farcical and sets an even more dangerous precedent.

Good luck with it Mary, I know what it's like to be the wrong side of the system - the innocent side!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 10:46 PM

My brother in law retired early from a teaching position in the inner city. Tired of having his car vandalized, tired of having kids pull knives on him. Frightened when he found out that some of them knew where he lived. And this wasn't at one of the 'really bad' schools. Now he won't even tell me where he lives.

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: Neighmond
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 12:17 AM

Guest,
Thank you for the response to my post. You sound like you have some good working experience, so If you look me up in ten years and you are right(as is probable), I will admit it with right free will. Please don't go thinking that I think I am "better than" anybody else-I am no better and no worse-I am the least perfect of an imperfect world.

That being said, I would like to respond.

"Neighmond, if you are going to be teaching in an inner city school, I can tell you, you are in for quite a shock."

I will teach in any school that offers me a contract.

"All fine in theory. But the administration won't back you up in the "I demand respect, and settle for nothing less" attitude. Because they can't. The parents are the problem, but not much will be done to them, I assure you."

I had a teacher in Junior High.
His name is Cyril Klein.
We all thought he was one line driving tough son of a bitch. He made us stay for detentions on the littlest thing, made our parents sign daily progress reports (blue cards), and it was detention if they didn't sign as told. No excuses. There was a written contract that each student and parent signed. I don't recall a single parent in any of my classes not signing.

We knew where he lived. We all had his telephone number ("No student should ever say they couldn't find me when they need me.")

I went to Mr. Klein's class in 8th grade with a chip on my shoulder and left in ninth a better man for it. Were it not for Mr. Klein I would likely be dropped out of school or in jail someplace. I owe it to all of my students to give the same gift he gave to me.

"It isn't going to be black and white at all when you get into the trenches, Neighmond. And these kids that society just wants to throw away, will break your heart with their beauty, their intelligence, their creativity, and their sensitivity. I swear to god."

As you probably guessed by now, I am NOT "society". If someone shoots(knives, koshes, etc.) me then so be it. They'll only do it once. But damnded If I get before my maker and cop out, and say "I couldn't do my best, (fill in the name) wouldn't let me." I owe the children more than a baby-sitting. I will be paid to educate and so help me God I will earn my pay. Education does NOT stop with the A B C's. Teachers must show by example, and allow the pupils to see the proper way of dealing with life's situations. How are they to learn of the reprecussions of wrongdoing without experiencing it first hand?

Guest, in my opinion, to overlook the misdeeds without acting on them and holding the children accountable for them is "throwing the children away!" I am sure you know it is real work to find each pupil's assets and develop them into something that could be that child's salvation, but if it can be done we've got it to do. It is far less work to pass on a dicipline problem than to deal with it, and I feel that it is a cheap and shoddy way of teaching, and only multiplies the problem, when it could be nipped in the bud. Really caring is teaching the unplesant as well as the plesant. There isn't a day that goes by when I don't thank the lord that I was placed in Mr. Klein's class. If I prove half the teacher he is I will consider my career a success.

I am sorry if I tread on any toes in this post but this is how I feel.

Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: fox4zero
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 12:29 AM

These 2 bullies have committed, at the very least, a battery and are subject to both criminal charges and civil tort. The victim should consider pressing criminal and/or civil action.
I doubt if would reach the trial stage for either. The perps (or poips, as the cops in NYC say) would cop a plea, and a civil settlement should pay for his college education.

Larry

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: JennyO
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 01:14 AM

Neighmond, more power to you if you can do it. I admire your attitude and don't let anybody say you can't. There will be always be "white-ants" to tell you something hard is impossible.

Certainly, it takes a special kind of person to take this on, but you may be that person. Every child deserves a Cyril Klein in their lives to recognise and stand for them being the best they can be. Sounds to me like they'll be lucky to have you.

Only last week I saw "Dangerous Minds" on TV - very inspiring. You go for it!

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: OTCall to action: bullying in a school
From: Neighmond
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 01:20 AM

Thank you, Jenny. That means quite alot!

THis is a little off subject, but I thought I would put it in, as it is the rules I live by every day.
Chaz

Cicero's "Six Mistakes Of Man"

1. The delusion that personal gain is made by crushing others.

2. The tendency to worry about things that cannot be changed or corrected.

3. Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it.

4. Refusing to set aside trivial preferences.

5. Neglecting development and refinement of the mind, and not acquiring the habit of reading and studying.

6. Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.