Tech: Java Script generators?

Subject: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:45 AM

I've been working with the book JavaScript for the World Wide Web and have used their companion site here. Using any of their scripts involves taking them apart and putting in new values, and it's a slow process since I haven't taken any formal JavaScript classes, though I'm quite conversant with html. I've done a search and find discussion of programs, but are any of you (John in Kansas, probably most particularly?) aware of any JavaScript generators for use by non-programmers? There are so many different uses of these scripts as well--so I expect different programs have different strengths. I would expect that just as I use FrontPage to generate html (but I do most of the programming myself in the html view and use cascading style sheets) that I would have to learn to use a generator in such a way. Is there a new wave of books or tutorials out there to look at?

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 12:40 PM

I found a script generator in FrontPage, and installed it, but am very leery of such a creature. Isn't Microsoft at war with the folks who generated JavaScript (and isn't that Netscape?)? So how does this serve to generate the "enemies (markup) language"?

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 03:38 PM

No, Java and JavaScript aren't the same thing. Sun Microsystems controls the Java standard. JavaScript is a Java-like Web scripting language originally developed by Netscape.

You might enjoy the information at the JavaScript Kit Website. It has lots of info and links to other sites as well.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:11 PM

There are so many free libraries of pre written scripts available on the web that most people go for these and customise them in Notepad.

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:21 PM

Peter--

Yes, that is my aim, to modify existing scripts. It's finding some simple ones that has been the challenge. (I know Java is something else--and NOT coffee!--and hope not to tangle with that at all!)

Any suggestions on the search parameters to come up with those free scripts? Any favorite sites? Those are what I'm looking for, and I've viewed the source code on quite a few existing pages, but so much stuff gets tangled into these things and makes it a real puzzle. I've had some formal web design training, but haven't had time to take a JavaScript class yet. That makes this the seat-of-your-pants school of web design. I tried putting JavaScript into the FrontPage format and it hijacked it and messed it all up. I am pretty well stuck with Front Page because it is the default program from where I work, but I can simply paste something into the html view and save it to the server without too much interference.

(I suppose I could go view Mudcat's source code--they have some nice touches in here!)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:54 PM

SRS, Mudcat is not written in JavaScript. I think there may be a couple of example of client side usage but that's about it. The main work is done in the costly but effective ColdFusion.

Personally, I prefer to avoid client side JavaScript as it is browser dependent and I for one have a tendency to turn it off. I don't need to be show "clever" mouse trails for example... and I'm not too keen over what I think could be done by a malicious user.

MS, at least for ASP did pioneer thier own version of JavaScript called JScript so I suppose the war to some extent does exist or did.

What are you trying to do or wanting to do?

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 08:05 PM

Guest--I hadn't been in to look at Mudcat yet, but I'm interested in dinky little stuff that should be easy but isn't working out that way. Drop down menus and such. Absolute versus relative positioning. Formatting fonts and backgrounds in menus. I'm trying to streamline some online stuff so that most of the opening page activity is taking place in a single screen, and menus and such will help. I've generated a lot of dead ends in this pursuit (and have tons of little graphic files around to show for it). Have you worked with JScript? I did load it today, but have only looked at it, haven't taken it for a spin with a document. I already had FrontPage open on a document when I loaded it. It tried to take over the JavaScript and became an unmanagable mess (I couldn't compare it easily with the examples I had from other places). I have lots of little scraps of it in txt files.

I also have to keep in mind the large variety of browsers that might reach these pages, so will be testing whatever I come up with to see if it works in general in most places.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 08:28 PM

Best of luck SRS,

I don't have experience in the areas you are looking for. The only Internet areas I have played with are things like ASP to develop the Annexe and folkinfo, largely using ASP/VBScript and php (to do things such as run abc conversion routines to try to produce things like MIDI and pdf). I'll help if I can on the direction of music though I'm aware I'm very much a beginner.

Jon (previous unnamed Guest)

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 09:14 PM

Just reading again, SRS.

When you view the source at Mudcat (or many other sites), what you see is the HTML that the server produces. That can include stuff like client side JavaScript but will not give you an idea as to how the main systems work.

The essense of Mudcat, reflected in the help forum, is a Coldfusion demo program. You can find that code here.

My own started as an asp-dev.com that I'm guessing moved onto this.

In either case,and I know for sure in my case, that it has been a case of adapting existing programs to suit needs.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:08 AM

Exactly--I'm expecting that with JavaScript (or JScript--Bill G. isn't very original with that name is he?), as I did when I was learning html, that I'll be ferreting out little snippits of code that I can adopt and make my own. I took one programming class and the most useful bit of that was learning the trick of writing "pseudo code." I use that by diagraming what it is I want my form or button or menu to do, then figure out what code will let it do that (and will still work in the major browsers).

Active Server Pages (ASP) are a big deal at the library where I work, but I don't do anything more than point other people to them right now. And modify a few that were set up that I must use (the transition between the library pages and my publications' pages).

Thanks for your help, Jon! I'll post any good script generator links here if I find any. Tomorrow. I'm supposed to be doing my income tax tonight. . . (That's why I'm here playing with the computer instead)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:38 AM

I have a program set up that will block a lot of interactive stuff, doesn't allow cookies, etc., and I tested it just now on Mudcat. It won't let me go to any of the threads from the Lyrics and Knowledge page, so the Cold Fusion must be using something this blocker doesn't like. I can open the dropdown menus at the top of the page because they do appear to be straight html. Has anyone tried any of those Pop Up Blocker programs? Do they eliminate just certain types of JavaScript language, or all of it? Definitely something to keep in mind when designing a page or developing an alternate.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM

SRS...have you looked at...or even seen Bookmarklets?
also at this place

these are little bits of javascript that can do various things in certain browsers

you might get some ideas from them...

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 09:28 AM

Script libraries?
javafile.com is a good start.

You can get some basic instruction at Webmonkey and probably a few more links.

Front Page isn't too bad for simply layouts but most of the time a text editor is much easier. If you have FP you are presumably using Windows so must have Notepad and Wordpad available as well.

Classes? Probably unecessary although an understanding of object based syntax is helpful. It is very unusual to need to write JavaScript from scratch.

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 01:08 PM

Usually the classes are offered through Continuing Education at the university where I work. They're paid for by the university, and are offered in a computer classroom where you can basically get hands on when the instructor is there to offer ideas for modifying other people's script, how to get the most functionality out of the program you're using, and good links to go to for examples. This thread is cheaper than the class, it is certainly a hands-on environment, but the person leaning over my shoulder saying "if you put this script just so it will work" is missing. Other than that, it has been very helpful.

I agree absolutely about using Notepad--it is my single most heavily used tool in all of this web design work. It removes all of the formatting that the other MS programs place on the text, and lets you work with it fresh. I couldn't begin to do this work without it.

Bill D. and Peter, thanks for the links--I'll go in and take a look, and take Notepad with me.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM

SRS,I may be wrong but I suspect there is some missunderstanding over "classes". I think Peter was reffering to the Object Orientated side of JavaScript.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 03:46 PM

I have taken only one programming class, so I understood him to be talking about how one approaches writing this kind of script, using an intermediate step. I interpreted "object" as the cluster of code that results in something happening. Understanding what it is you're asking the code to do by first writing a sort of text diagram of how you are going to have write it. I found the use of Pseudo Code to be very useful intermediate exercise for planning out what I was trying to make the page do. In the programming class the instructor used it to teach us how to figure the steps we'd need when using a simple version of C+. It's actually an effective way to work out any number of problems, and not just computer related. A sort of linear Mind Map, if that makes any sense to you.

If this isn't the object in question, is there an easy way to explain how the word is being used here?

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:56 PM

I'll try to find something on the Internet. But as a starter, you've had a look at C (or C++? - I don't know C+). In coventional programming you have data and functions as separate entities, e.g in C you could declare some variables to hold the data:

int I;
char ch;

You also have functions to do the work, e.g. In C,

void DoThis(){
   /* Insert whatever code is needed */
}

Hopefully that is familiar to you.

In Object Orientated programming, the data and the functions (often called methods) are contained in one single object. It's probably easier to use an example... I'll try a simple TV, all it does is change. Channel and display the current channel. I will (in some generic way) define a class for TV. It will have an int variable to track the channel and 2 functions one to change channel and one to report the channel.

  class TV (
    //the variable
    int Channel;
  
    //change channel function
    void ChangeChannel(int NewChannel)
    {
      Channel = NewChannel;
      //and whatever else may be needed for a real tv
    }
  
    //display channel function
    void DisplayChannel()
    {
      //whatever code needed to display the variable "channel"
    }
  }
  

OK so now we have our TV class. Now its time to use it in a program to "make" a TV, change to channel 9 and display the current channel. The first thing I need to do is create a TV object. Which I will do just as I would a variable:

TV MyTV;

OK now we have the TV. I want to use MyTV. In this case we will assume that a method is called by using a period and then the method. So to change channel to channel 9 on myTV:

MyTV.ChangeChannel(9);

Or to show the current channel,

MyTV.DisplayChannel();

That's the best attempt I can make at trying to show where OOP starts to come in. I'm sure others can do better and I hope that doesn't confuse to much.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:19 PM

No more confusion than figuring out where scripts begin and end as I examine scripts already in action in page source code. I recognize the pattern you're describing (by using what I described as pseudocode). The trick is to find where it begins and ends. There is often times something tucked away in the /head/ (I won't use brackets here) part of the page, and then there is the part down in the /body/ that is where the activity is taking place, as defined from above. Or so it seems. Like I say, if I go study this in a day-long session, I'm sure they'll define the parts, the beginning and ending pieces, the proper syntax, and the human contact will help it stick better than reading through the DHTML and JavaScript books. The more I have figured out before I go in, the farther I can get in one of those classes. Thanks!

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Java Script generators?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:58 PM

I'm probably the wrong one for this SRS but I'm viewing that now as differences between describing a program, e.g pseudocode and differences in, shall I say, ways of programming.

I'm a rank amatuer who started to find some sense with Turbo Pascal and the ideas of structured programming. The bulk of my learning was on my own and probably the biggest thing I learned from any course was the idea of breaking things down into smaller chunks using something called "Jacksons Structural Programming" (JSP but to confuse the issue, not to be confused with JSP as in Java Sever Pages).

With that, one drew boxes to show input and output and the program. The basic idea was sort of along the lines that one may not know how to build a house but foundations, walls, roof, etc. could be identified as tasks and "sub tasks" could then be developed, e.g. build a wall could be expanded to lay bricks, mix cement, etc.

From that, within my little bit of formal training, one would go into peseudocode before coding into a language. The idea being that pseudocode can be translated into any number of languages - the steps on how to do are there - all that's needed is a translation into a programing language. In reality, it's not as simple as that but it's not a bad outlook.

With luck, one of the many experienced programmers will chip in with more. Believe me, there are a few forum contributers round here who could lose me with one or two sentances - it's the same in many places on the Internet.

Anyway, that's it for now. I don't think much of that is relavant to wanting to modify some JavaScript but with pseudocode or whatever, ideas can be built on...

Jon