Teaching folk music

Subject: Teaching folk music
From: Frankham
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 01:28 PM

Hi Mudcatters,

For many years now I have been actively engaged in teaching folk music through the playing and singing with guitar, 5-string,mandolin,and related folk instruments.

I would be grateful to know what you are doing in this area.

I have a class now and am discovering new things about it. It's basically an ensemble class with a variety of instruments at various levels.

How do you handle teaching? What goals do you have for your students? How do you see teaching in relationship to the folk process? Do you have a philosophy about it or a "method" that works for you?

Rick, M.Ted, Genie, Mark, Spaw and everyone....love to hear from you on this.

My view, folk music is accessible. If people (students..pickers..etc.) can own it (play it for themselves) then it remains an appreciated means of expression. More support for those who perform it. More support for those who are inclined to study it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Mark Ross
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 04:33 PM

Frank,
      I've ben teaching here in Eugene, Oregon for the past year or so, before that, 20 years in Montana. Here's my thoughts on the subject;

ON HOW I TEACH FOLK MUSIC

Learning how to play folk music in this day & age is difficult. I mean we don't live (most of us, anyway) in communities where this music is part of our daily lives. The onset of mass media(like all functions of capitalism) destroys community and regional styles. I am told one could formerly tell the difference between and East Texas and a West Texas fiddler.

I am convinced that the best way to learn folk music is by immersion. That's sort of the way I like to teach, sitting down with a student (or two or three), and just playing the tunes over and over. Not by the clock either! It depends on how much people can swallow at one sitting. I mean some folks are satisfied after one glass of beer, and some have an unbelievable capacity, and can keep coming back for more.

It all depends on how much you can absorb over a period of time (in some cases, including my own, it takes years). I like to teach the way I got to learn, sitting down with an instrument and a master of that style, and you keep playing until you come close to understanding how it's supposed to work.

It's all a matter of time, energy, dedication and the willingness to live with your mistakes.
First you learn how to crawl, and then walk, and then eventually you learn how to run. The more time you can put into it the more you'll get back.

In fact, I'm convinced that the best way to learn this is by apprenticeship. TOTAL immersion. But few people have the time, the energy or the financial resources to do it that way anymore.

So what you do is this; You get yourself the best instrument you can possibly afford. Then you figure out which direction you want to head. Find yourself the best guide to that destination, be it an instruction book, video, or a teacher. Than be prepared to spend some time with your axe. In fact commit yourself to spending a LOT of time! Try and hold on to your job (don't quit, you need money for strings, accessories, better instruments, rent, food, phone bills, etc.), your relationship, your place in society, your stamina, and your sanity.

These days I'm teaching finger-picking and flat-picking guitar, old-time banjo, old-time fiddle, mandolin, harmonica, autoharp and Hawaiian guitar. Lessons are $30 (no particular time limit) and you need to bring a blank cassette tape (I don't do notation, much,and this way you don't have to try and remember everything off the top of your head), a spiral notebook (to write down chords and chord charts for songs), and of course, your instrument of choice (or two or three).

Hope that helps.
Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Stewart
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 12:42 PM

Refresh. Let's hear more.

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: breezy
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 01:00 PM

learn thru songs,I think the voice comes first.
Share songs but have a 'starter's repertoire.
Bring in the basic chords of D,G A7 and G,C, D7 their relative minors and have capos handy.
Get em singing from the off.

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Frankham
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM

Hi Mark,

Your approach sounds wonderful. I'm sure that your students are fortunate.

Breezy, that sounds right to me! That's my approach.

Questions please. (To everyone)

Do you have a limit as to how many people you can teach at one time?

How do you handle the ones that tend to want to take over to the detriment of the group?

How do you integrate the various aspects, singing, playing, different instruments and playing levels?

How much printed material do you use?

What styles of music do you teach? (We concentrate on accessible but traditional folk music staying away from the more contemporary or pop-oriented stuff).

What sources do you use for song material?

How do you approach musical "improvisation"?

Thanks for your responses.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM

I don't know if others will identify what my husband and I do as "teaching folk music" but I have some thoughts to share as a learner and as a partner in others' learning.

We jam with people who are starting out, we play what we like and what they like, we encourage them to try things. We let them see our own learning process. Our monthly jams, more and more, are workshops followed by playful effort. (There's about an hour and a half of hard work and then about 45 minutes of free sailing.) We sometimes make appointments to get together with these people as individuals to focus on helping them reach their own goals in musicianship, and we expect pay in money or barter for this.

We point them towards things to listen to, to develop their ear and keep their horizons open... we tell them the truth, always.   

Rather than teachers, we are mentors I suppose, who are still learning ourselves, all the time, and we model getting out there and playing with people, in front of people, and so forth. We present them with our band when they are ready, or on their own when they are REALLY ready (they never FEEL ready but they copy our chutzpah nicely).

We do all this instinctively, backed with clear and increasingly specific intention. It doesn't just "happen." We make deliberate choices that keep the focus just as I have described, and we look back often to see what causes went with which effects, in people's progress.

I can see what this has to do with the folk process; can you? Part of it is that whatever we sing or play, we play it our way, which is made up of all that we have heard and tried up to that point, and our own fresh, flexible creativity.

I would rather be doing this than what I can identify as teaching. And I would suggest, as a hypothesis, that most people who will become folkies don't like to be told what to do, too much, anyhow-- they want to make it up as they go along, if they get the slightest encouragement. I know several who will practice skills for hours, just because he wants to.... when they run into a block they always know who to call to get another piece of help; and then they go off and practice some more. But they keep jamming.

I think when people are in this kind of adult, active-learning mode, it's the music that's doing the teaching. We don't operate the folk process unilaterally... it operates US, just as much.

YMMV. My 2 cents are worth about 2 cents, subject to your local exchange rate.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Frankham
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 09:23 PM

Hi Susan,

This is an interesting approach.

When you jam with others, do you encounter music that you don't like? If so, how do you deal with that?

It sounds like to me that your approach is very much teaching but in a different kind of way. Your interest in the individual student is refreshing. Do you get your students to play music together or is this more one on one?

I would imagine that you would be truthful. How much does this reflect your own interests (say as different from theirs)?  I think a person can only be objective about teaching others to a point. For example, I can teach some young kids to play rock solos because I've done it but I don't like it. So I won't do it. I've even sat down an annotated some Jimi Hendrix but although I appreciate what he did, I don't like to be a part of that style of playing.  

You use the term mentor rather than teacher. I would assume that the conventional way of teaching runs antithetical to the way you work with students. You might not even want to call them students, right?

When you present them with your band, what does that entail? Do they sit in with you on public performances? What kind of band is it?

Do you document what you do instinctively and keep notes on each individual student? I assume you have in mind what you feel the student needs to find his/her way. How do you determine those deliberate choices? Do they differ from student to student?

I see what you do as an important part of the folk process. It's similar to the way traditional folk singers and players act within their subculture. They learn from their parents, relatives, friends in somewhat the same way. For example, Jean Ritchie's family from the Cumberlands taught her in kind of this way I would suppose. Maybe not formally but by modeling as you have pointed out.
How do you integrate what you do creatively with other folk's interest?

I used to think (maybe still do) that you can't really teach anyone anything but you can present the information in an interesting an involved way. Maybe this is teaching in a real sense. So much of what we call "education" is about lecturing and spoon-feeding in a hierarchical manner. The teacher is god (master) and the student is neophyte (slave). That's not real education to me.

I think that the folkies growing up in the Revival tended to be inconoclasts and the idea of learning anything formally would not be appealing. OTOH musicians like Doc Watson tell us on his "Legacy" recording that he thought that what he did wasn't interesting to others. He was surprised when there was so much interest in what he does. He learned to play different kinds of music to play at dances and in bands. Much of the accoustic single-string fiddle tune styles he learned from playing electric guitar. I don't think he'd be resistant to learning anything from anyone. I find that the best musicians that I've known are eager to learn anything anyway anytime. However, the focus in what they do is pretty consistent. (Being a good picker or singer or etc.)

How do you handle someone who is ambivalent about wanting to learn?

There are so many books, CD's, videos etc. to learn from on an individual level.
Less is said about learning to jam. What do your jams consist of? Picking and singing? Learning the same songs? How do you conduct a jam?

You said,
"I think when people are in this kind of adult, active-learning mode, it's the music that's doing the teaching."

I absolutely agree. You could even plug in the word "subject" for "music".

And,
"We don't operate the folk process unilaterally... it operates US, just as much."

I think that this is really the only way you can learn folk music. The student becomes the teacher as well as the other way 'round.
This kind of interaction is what gives folk music it's vitality, I believe.

Both you and Mark take a kind of mentoring role in your "teaching" if you want to call it that...a kind of modeling for your students. Do you ever get to a point when you tell the student that they don't need you now and suggest where else to go to continue their learning? I've done this a couple of times I think with guitar and 5-string banjo students.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: mooman
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:11 AM

Do you have a limit as to how many people you can teach at one time?

I normally teach one-to-one.

How do you handle the ones that tend to want to take over to the detriment of the group?

I teach with a couple of other musicians (including An Pluimeir Ceolmhar) once a week at the local Irish Club as well as private one-to-ones at home. The club teaching is always one to one followed by a session that everyone can join in. Due to the dynamics of the group, we haven't suffered this problem yet.

How do you integrate the various aspects, singing, playing, different instruments and playing levels?

We take all levels at the club and do our best to let everyone contribute, whatever their level. We all tend specialise in one or two instruments (me - strings and percussion, The Plumber - Uillean pipes and whistle, others - fiddle, flute, etc.). We are thinking of setting up a separate workshop on a different day for singers.

How much printed material do you use?

Varies. Me - never. Others - from none to some.

What styles of music do you teach? (We concentrate on accessible but traditional folk music staying away from the more contemporary or pop-oriented stuff).

At home I teach folk, jazz, blues and rock styles. At the Irish Club it is aleaways...well...!

What sources do you use for song material?

Being primarily a musician rather than a singer I will pass on this. I do however, take the trouble to learn the backing to songs to help out if needed.

How do you approach musical "improvisation"?

I embrace it and welcome it wholeheartedly. I have often learn interesting new things from my students' interpretations or improvisations.

Best regards,

moo

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM

Frank, I will answer your excellent questions-- you sure are engaged in thinking about all this! :~) I should reflect on it some first with my husband. So it will be a few days before I can address them.

A few "short answers"....

First, about keeping track of their progress this-- that's entirely on their side of the equation. However far along I think they may be when I will see them next, that isn't at all where it turns out that they're at-- they have either sped past my assessment by virtue of practice, epiphanies gained through listening to good musical models, hanging out with a better player, etc., or they have been busier than they thought they would be, and have lost progress or failed to make any due to lack of application.

When I work with them privately, it's on them to say what they want to work on, when they arrive. When they have not moved forward, we just repeat what we did last time, using the "lesson" time as part of the practice they missed, and then I assign motivating homework-- such as, "Choose four songs to bring next time, that you really want to play. Let's not waste our time together doing that, OK?"

Or, often, they have found a more accurate approach-- they have realized what little thing has been blocking their propgress, and they want to make a shift in focus or talk about what they spotted.

I have one big luxury in this-- time. I can give them a half hour or a few hours, and anything in between. One day I thought it would be a half hour of strum patterns, with myself modeling on autopharp anf the "student" on lap duilimer. But what needed to happen that day was how to simplify arrangements. So we worked throuhg a songbook he's using, that I also have used, and we did arragements and jammed them smooth for about an hour and a half. It was very satisfying and I never noticed the time rush by till my shoulder gave out!

A second answer-- our band is primarily a singalong band-- we play and songlead all forms of gospel. We also do some tin pan alley, and some oldtime, some Irish.... in a more "performer" mode we do fiddle tunes... the core group plays weekly for church services, and we are organizing concerts with Mudcat contacts. A recent description of "presenting" some of our people is in the thread, "When the Band Can't Come."

I think what we are "teaching" is not any specific instrument, but "Musicianship 101."

It's good you are inviting me to think about this more, BTW.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: pattyClink
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 03:15 PM

Feel like I'm intruding on your wonderful dialogue here, but just had to remark on our local teaching wizard. He's an active musician in 4-5 genres, teaches a schedule of lessons during the days. Routinely he sets up little student bands that offer to play free for dance groups or minor festival stages or whatever. Some disband a while later, others become 'real' groups. It is absolutely amazing the number of students he has turned into musicians. He is a one-man folk promulgation machine. I respect anybody who even tries to do this. Bless yer hearts!

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:30 PM

sORRY ABOUT ALL THE YPTOS.

sorry all caps! I need a nap!

Anyway, when I say it's on them to say what they want to work on, I mean it's on them to say what they hope to accomplish in the session-- it's on me to figure out what we could do together that would get them there. (There's an old saying that in making love, it's up to the woman to decide when, and it's up to the man to decide how.) For instance my lap dulcimer friend asked me one jam night, if I was playing a straight rhythm to the time signature or was I holding strums to make up the same length of time as the sung note. Gosh, I thought, I'm just PLAYING. The answer took me through an interesting week of hearing myself play and figuring out where the style had come from, and it turned out that when it's just me and too few other instruments to fill in the texture of an oldtime stringband, I'm playing all the rhythm parts, the bass part, and some other parts too, all at once, as well as the time value of the melody. (This is what can happen when your first instruments are voice and washboard but your earliest music ed has been music appreciation-- intense listening to classical composers in orchestral styles! So the answer to the question was, YES. HOW had that come to be? I had to list the styles I'd been influenced by, because on an autoharp strum I was doing something vaguely Delta and vaguely Doc Watson in flavor and timing.

Well, so when he arrived for our first "visit" we talked about that and played around with it, and I made him a list of good things to go listen to, to pick out all the parts.... from Baroque choral music with all its dotted-32nd-note runs, to MJH. Go figure.

Having a really interested "student" makes for an interesting look at my own playing, that's for sure.

Maybe I am not a mentor but to borrow from the athletic model, more of a coach and trainer. My job is to suck all the music out of them that's already in there. I KNOW it's in there. If you can breathe and speak any language, you got rhythm, and if you tap your toes when you listen, you have an instrument out there somewhere waiting for you to pick it up.

Must have coffee with you next time I am in your area-- Chicago, right? July.

~S~

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:48 PM

Thank you so much! This input is invaluable. It's so instructive that I want to respond to each of you.

Mooman, you teach one-on-one and then integrate them into the group. That sound good. Particularly if you are team teaching. Your doing the strings and the other person on wind is a good idea. Once they are comfortable with one-on-one then bring them into the session. Do you ever work with them all together in the session or does it kind of run by itself?


Glad you are able to find a group that is so cooperative.

You teach then primarilly by ear. Do you encourage the use of tape recorders?

Do you integrate any of the jazz and other styles into the Irish session? Or does it stay pretty much traditional?

Have you worked with singers as singer/musicians?

About improvisation, what I meant is have you tried to teach it to the students?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 07:04 PM

Susan, this is great information.

If keeping track of the progress is their responsibility (which it is), do you kind of know what's been happening from week to week in their development or do you just take it as they present it and go from there? I tend toward the latter in my approach because I agree with you that it's their responsibility to know where they're level is.

If you see them and they've sped ahead of where you thought they were when you last worked with them then you probably have a good idea of where they are in their level? If the assignment was say to accompany a song with their own arrangement, then they bring in four or five songs doing this, you would then remember that? (A kind of mental documenting)

Do you keep track of the songs they want to learn from week to week or do they refresh your memory by bringing them in to remind you that this is what they've worked on?

Have you catalogued what these "blocks" are so that the information from one student can be transferred to another? Suppose a person has a problem with rhythmic tempo and has a block about it. When you work with this, can that information be used for another student?

I think it's so wonderful that you are generous with your time. They are very fortunate students to have this. Do you find that when you jam with them that your own playing increases and becomes better?

How do you know when the student that you teach becomes ready to play in the band? Or is this just a feeling that it's right?

How would you define musicianship? Here's what I think it is. An ability to take the musical knowledge and incorporate it into a jam to make music together. I think something like this for me takes place even in a solo or duo performance before and audience. I think this is what Pete Seeger had in mind when he developed the "hootenanny" concept.

More questions for you later. What you do sounds great!

Hey Rick, I'd love to hear from you on all of this because you've been at it successfully for years.

Frank

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM

Hi Patty,

Please don't feel like you're intruding on anything. Glad to have your input.

There are folks who know how to do this. It's a different thing than learning to perform on an instrument or sing. Fortunately there are quite a few folk promulgating machines out there. In a way I think of this as an integral part of the folk process. It's like giving back for receiving such joy. It's so important because it builds the audience for folk music by participation. The appreciation for it grows as people begin to own it and it's not just another "spectator sport".

Frank

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 07:49 PM

Hi Susan,


Having the student state the goals is so important.


"For instance my lap dulcimer friend asked me one jam night, if I was playing a straight rhythm to the time signature or was I holding strums to make up the same length of time as the sung note. Gosh, I thought, I'm just PLAYING."

This is interesting because the rhythm is often indicated by the melody of the song in folk music.

The folk singer and player is a complete orchestra as a soloist or leader of an ensemble. Bass runs on the guitar and sometimes on the 5-string banjo or dulcimer (counter lines). How do you edit your playing so that when you are in a larger ensemble jamming you fit in with what you're doing?

It's great that you can integrate the music that you've learned about into the folk style and encourage your students to listen to all kinds of music.

One of the things that might frustrate a "teacher" is to not complete a passage of music but to stop and go over it for the student. Do you deal with this or do you just have the student go through the whole piece and then talk about it?
In classical music, many teachers isolate a passage that gives the student problems and just go over it again and again. It's one of the things that drives me nuts about that style of teaching. I get so bored. Sometimes in practicing I can do this for myself but I find it difficult to concentrate for too long a time. There are some musicians who find the process fascinating and can spend hours learning a single lick. I enjoy however the process of learning songs and don't mind going over and over the lyrics.

It's great that you have such patience and enjoy the process of watching people learn.

We live in the Atlanta area now. If you ever get down into this neck of the woods, please let us know. We'd love to talk and get together. You have our e-mail. Love to hear from you.

Frank

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: mooman
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:36 AM

Dear Frankham,

Mooman, you teach one-on-one and then integrate them into the group. That sound good. Particularly if you are team teaching. Your doing the strings and the other person on wind is a good idea. Once they are comfortable with one-on-one then bring them into the session. Do you ever work with them all together in the session or does it kind of run by itself?

It tend to run itself but, from time to time, we do give tips on the dynamics of playing together.

Glad you are able to find a group that is so cooperative.

You teach then primarilly by ear. Do you encourage the use of tape recorders?

I personally don't encourage it as I believe personal explanation works best but, if a student brings a tape recorder, I won't object to it either if they prefer to work that way.

Do you integrate any of the jazz and other styles into the Irish session? Or does it stay pretty much traditional?

Yes...I very much a believer in "evolution" through bringing in other influences. Provided it isn't overdone I think it can enrich the music. I worked with Comhaltas for a while and found the approach there a little rigid (at least in the branch I was associated with) although I have great respect for the fact that they bring Irish music to so many.

Have you worked with singers as singer/musicians?

Yes...and I enjoy working with the voice/instrument combination (although I'm no great singer myself).

About improvisation, what I meant is have you tried to teach it to the students?

In one-to ones at home sometimes yes although it's normally by way of suggestions as to what might work. In the club situation, I prefer to try to build up the player's confidence such that their own improvisation can come from within. I'm now greatly in awe of the improvisational techniques of one former student of a couple of years ago and find I often learn as much as I teach if I keep an open mind.

All the best,

moo

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM

I guess when we all agree to publish this we can clean up the typoes, eh?


Do you have a limit as to how many people you can teach at one time? In workshop mode, only as many as the cound can reach. I've led as many as 30 in a workshoppy jam.... with my husband handy to help be a spare pair of eyes and ears and point me to anyone struggling who needs a word of help. I guess I wish I'd had an amp that time since I hurt my voice, just so I could speak and sing more relaxedly. But then prior to leading music events I led a lot of workshops and group things, and my husband is a clergyman used to leading and coordinating the participants in large liturgical events, so we have a edge there I think. I've seen a fiddle tunes workshop of 100 led well, BTW, at Clarion Folk College. Best jam I was ever in. Sorted itself out just fine, in terms of what instruments went where to hear each other.

How do you handle the ones that tend to want to take over to the detriment of the group? Like I would in a support group-- first we describe the operating guidelines briefly, never assuming there is not a newcomer or someone who needs to hear it again. We do a round of introductions, too-- names, what they play, where they live, how long they been playing, and so forth. When there is trouble I'll point out things about sharing time equally, being very directive about turns whereas without their presence I would usually be more laid back and let it flow. If they are good players I may ask them to show some skills to newer players. I'll also point out that they have the hands to watch for the evening, as I see their chord changes are crisp and their fingering basic and easy to read. I make them sit where the newbies can see their hands. They feel very good about this, I think! We have several rooms we can break out into if it seems like the group is too big (or too small for the egos present.) I don't go out of my way to invite people back who seem to be unable to support the growth of community as well as musical skill. (I'm building a community, not putting people through a skill machine.) But these same people are often fun to play with one on one, and sometimes the guitar people (ooh, space aliens, The Guitar People, LOL) will tend to set up side conversations about riffs, and this is very distracting to other instrumentalists and very discouraging to newbie guitarists. We just... take charge, not so as to cotrol, but we do make it clear we are hosting and have some ways of working that may differ from what people are used to but which we have found do actually promote good playing AND a good time. I think it boils down to spotting what the real needs are and what the unmeetable, unhealthy needs are. We feed the real needs and redirect the others to more productive approaches to being in the group, where we can.

How do you integrate the various aspects, singing, playing, different instruments and playing levels? We throw them all in the pool at once for the first hour as a beginner's jam, and the more experienced players have been very good about helping newbies in this time period. We call chord changes as needed for a few verses or repeats, and so forth. Real newbies often like to sit next to me to see chord names on the autoharp. (Or a good guitarist with good hands will sit there to see the chords and then the other guitar players watch him.) Then we break into groups by interest or skill and go from there. If two excellent playes want to wander off to work up a tune, for example, we have space.

How much printed material do you use? It varies. We always have stuff on hand if needed, but if it's working fine without, we don't bring them out. If we are in song circle mode people can use a stand and sheets if they like, or not. (Our idea is that people will play without these when they are ready, and that's up to them, see?) Printed stuff can be songbooks (we have a million single copies, and a few duplicates, and some songsheets in bulk. We can always go to the gospel binder I use for some of our service music if things are lagging. It's full of pieces that are easy and recognizable and newbie players often like these as a starting point. In past years we always warmed everyone up with "On Top of Spaghetti."

What styles of music do you teach? (We concentrate on accessible but traditional folk music staying away from the more contemporary or pop-oriented stuff). We do too, and I described this earlier, but I think I forgot to mention blues-- all kinds, old and electric.

What sources do you use for song material? Big absorbent ears, eclectic interests.

How do you approach musical "improvisation"? Let it rip when it happens, answer questions about it if they come up. Not a skill area for us, yet.

When you jam with others, do you encounter music that you don't like? If so, how do you deal with that? We try it and if it's playable with our instruments and skills, we might find we like it... we at least find we have things to learn. One guy always brings stuff we can't play, and we just let him showcase it and anyone who wants to can play it with him. We encourage him to re-arrange things so we could play them, but he's not a great arranger so this is yet to happen. Some of our folks can play with him, and they get together with him sometimes just for that.

Do you get your students to play music together or is this more one on one? They are jammers first and students second... they start as people who do play together. So if we spot something that would work well in a small group mode, we might invite that subgroup for an evening to work on stuff in common. We set a date that works for that group and then let others know it's happening if they want to come too.

I would imagine that you would be truthful. How much does this reflect your own interests (say as different from theirs)? Well here is one of the checks and balances on my time availability. I have lots of time, but that's because I am rehabbing physically, and not working.... if it's not fun for me, it's not something I will put in time to do, and that's that. I'll try anything on a jam night but past that, it has to interest me or I am the wrong one for them to work with.

You use the term mentor rather than teacher. I would assume that the conventional way of teaching runs antithetical to the way you work with students. You might not even want to call them students, right? I call them folks, friends, and fellow musicians, except when I am talking about the part of knowing them that involves them trying to learn something specific.

I see what you do as an important part of the folk process. It's similar to the way traditional folk singers and players act within their subculture. They learn from their parents, relatives, friends in somewhat the same way. For example, Jean Ritchie's family from the Cumberlands taught her in kind of this way I would suppose. Maybe not formally but by modeling as you have pointed out. This is a high compliment, since we are flatlanders who moved to an area not terribly unlike Jean's. We just decided never to do it in such a way that it wasn't fun for everyone. Seen too many people harmed by formal music "education." Having to degoof that with people who insist they can't play or sing, cuz someone told them so when they were little.

I used to think (maybe still do) that you can't really teach anyone anything but you can present the information in an interesting an involved way. Maybe this is teaching in a real sense. So much of what we call "education" is about lecturing and spoon-feeding in a hierarchical manner. The teacher is god (master) and the student is neophyte (slave). That's not real education to me. It may be for other subjects, but IMO it's not compatible enough to work in terms of playing music. I think MTed has a structured approach that DOES work, but he should describe that himself. (PM him?) He did describe it once in a thread about guitar skills.

I think that the folkies growing up in the Revival tended to be inconoclasts and the idea of learning anything formally would not be appealing. OTOH musicians like Doc Watson tell us on his "Legacy" recording that he thought that what he did wasn't interesting to others. He was surprised when there was so much interest in what he does. He learned to play different kinds of music to play at dances and in bands. Much of the accoustic single-string fiddle tune styles he learned from playing electric guitar. I don't think he'd be resistant to learning anything from anyone. I find that the best musicians that I've known are eager to learn anything anyway anytime. However, the focus in what they do is pretty consistent. (Being a good picker or singer or etc.) Yes, they decide they want to learn something and that offers an entry point for a structured way of teaching that particular thing they want to learn. (Free will is a great thing when it's engaged.) It's part of teaching, I think, and sometimes people think that's ALL teaching should be... maybe people teach in the way they best can, and don't realize that they might get better results by having a partner who works differently. Example: My husband was totally a note reader and had been trained in classical piano, and I'm nearly all ear, so we balance each other well now that we've stopped arguing which is best! :~)

How do you handle someone who is ambivalent about wanting to learn? Love 'em to death... they will play when they want to, and learn what they have fallen in love with.

There are so many books, CD's, videos etc. to learn from on an individual level. Less is said about learning to jam. What do your jams consist of? Picking and singing? Learning the same songs? How do you conduct a jam? I think I've covered this, let me know if I have not.

Do you ever get to a point when you tell the student that they don't need you now and suggest where else to go to continue their learning? Oh yes, sometimes we START with that!   

(to mooman) You teach then primarily by ear. Do you encourage the use of tape recorders? I wish they would use them! We give them URLs to sites where they can practice with an online sound file, too, and one time we used these sound files right in the jam when the material was new to my husband and I as well.

If keeping track of the progress is their responsibility (which it is), do you kind of know what's been happening from week to week in their development or do you just take it as they present it and go from there? I assign homework, and if they did it that tells me where they are, mostly... they tell me how it went or what they did instead. I write it down, and they have to remember to bring the paper back the next time. So far I have not had so many wanting to work with me in the same time period that I have forgotten what we did or how it went. Maybe my limit is there, more than on how many I could reach in a group setting-- I can mentor four or five people now, with the limited resources I have physically. That includes people in our regular jam even if they do not come privately. I most enjoy working with people who, for whatever internal reasons, are just ready to pop and driven to play at home because it feels so good to do it. I don't like to do uphill work. I like to work with people who are as engaged in thinking about it all, as they are in the doing of it.

If you see them and they've sped ahead of where you thought they were when you last worked with them then you probably have a good idea of where they are in their level? I don't think in terms of levels. It's more like, "Are they playing the music they love, in such a way that they love it even more and that I love to play it with them."

If the assignment was say to accompany a song with their own arrangement, then they bring in four or five songs doing this, you would then remember that? (A kind of mental documenting) If they did that I would up the ante and assign something even more involving. I recently told someone, "Forget getting used to what you think I want. As soon as I feel like you have achieved a plateau, I'll go back to expecting more than you feel like you can do, at a higher level."

Do you keep track of the songs they want to learn from week to week or do they refresh your memory by bringing them in to remind you that this is what they've worked on? It's on their homework page. This includes notes on anything we tried that did or did not work, and why it might not have worked-- key, speed, whatever, if they want to try it again on their own.

Have you catalogued what these "blocks" are so that the information from one student can be transferred to another? Suppose a person has a problem with rhythmic tempo and has a block about it. When you work with this, can that information be used for another student? I tend to integrate whatever I experience, so I am sure I would draw on this if it was needed, but I don't intentionally keep track of it. (I would if I had staff.) On the other hand, I don't throw away paper, and I often re-find notes I made long ago that come in handy on new occasions.

Do you find that when you jam with them that your own playing increases and becomes better? Oh yes, I am on a totally new pevel as a player when I am leading or "teaching," because I pay attention to THEM and this lets my own new learnings pop out. They stretch me, because to play and talk at the same time really pushes me to just play without thinking, and that's good for me.

How do you know when the student that you teach becomes ready to play in the band? Or is this just a feeling that it's right? They are always ready musically long before they feel ready, and I think they know this, so I think I am just good at spotting when to push them, when to pull them, when to leave them where they are.

How would you define musicianship? Here's what I think it is. An ability to take the musical knowledge and incorporate it into a jam to make music together. I think something like this for me takes place even in a solo or duo performance before and audience. I think this is what Pete Seeger had in mind when he developed the "hootenanny" concept. I think I am still defining what I think about this....

... receiving such joy. It's so important because it builds the audience for folk music by participation. The appreciation for it grows as people begin to own it and it's not just another "spectator sport". YES. That's why our greatest joy is songleading or jamming and jam leading-- it's all growth, in all directions.

How do you edit your [own] playing so that when you are in a larger ensemble jamming you fit in with what you're doing? I just listen for what I am not hearing, and play it, I think. Not my analysis, just by taking part. I love it when this happens because I do not get enough opportunities to just lay back and plink in a very few needed spots. I like leading but it's not too often I can NOT lead, and be totally stretched to keep up in new areas. BTW I hammer my autoharp as well and in the larger group performance mode I can really focus in that. I have been the main songleader now for too long as well, and now we have a male sionger who can spell me on about half our material, so this is allowing me to do hamronies and play sparingly.

One of the things that might frustrate a "teacher" is to not complete a passage of music but to stop and go over it for the student. Do you deal with this or do you just have the student go through the whole piece and then talk about it? In classical music, many teachers isolate a passage that gives the student problems and just go over it again and again. It's one of the things that drives me nuts about that style of teaching. I get so bored. Sometimes in practicing I can do this for myself but I find it difficult to concentrate for too long a time. There are some musicians who find the process fascinating and can spend hours learning a single lick. I enjoy however the process of learning songs and don't mind going over and over the lyrics. If it's boring, just make it the homework part! We have a young lady working on fiddle tunes, and sometimes my husband also is challenged by the rhythm of a transcription he is trying to learn. It's usually based on a rhythm problem, causing an intractable fingering or bowing problem. I will degoof their problem spots for myself, using my baroque rhythm experience, and then make them take that patch out and fix it before going back to the piece at hand at tempo. My husband will often put that into his practice time and instead fo focusing on it when we play together we'll work on stuff that doesn't have those hitches. This is also our approach when we spend about an hour before the weekly service running through the music I have chosen for that night-- I pick 6 or 7 and we do the 3 or 4 that were working. The others work into the mix in their own time, or they just aren't ours to play. If it's a piece we ought to do, the players will work on it on their own, ofgen, and it's in better shape next time we try it. By using this approach, the entire mental association with playing together is a series of great memories of well played fun. Why create misery to record in the mind???

On a related note, IMO often the problem someone is having with their instrument is that they are playing the wrong instrument-- years of suffering to play what they think they ought to want to play, only to find that someone hands them another kind of instrument to hold at a jam, and they find themselves being able to make music on it, easily. I've seen this happen a number of times, and we also hit on a trick I think you use-- in the beginner hour we try each other's instruments sometimes, or play the one we are just learning on. So many guitar players are not guitar players! I thought I was a hammer dulcimer player but nope, I am an autoharper, not the usual sort but that's my game nonetheless. MY theory is that everyone has an instrument, but so many have been told they can never be a musicain. I tell them they just have not found their instrument yet. Eventually they come around and try some out and find one that they love more than their fear, their discomfort, and thier sore fingers.

And that's it, really, I'm certain of it. To be so driven by the love of it that you have to go forward no matter what, and you do, and you are more in love than ever when you go forward and discover the new songs, the new instruments the new ways to play. I have about 5,000 gospel sound files on this computer (of course there is some duplication with songs being done in six or more styles), and if I could I would play and sing every damn one of them, while also working on songs from Barry Taylor's Canadian Tunebook.


I often dream that I am wandering through a second hand store that goes on for miles and miles of rooms within rooms, and on every wall and shelf, and in every corner, there are instruments that have never been invented or made, and I play some of them, and I can hear how they would sound. And I would play them all if they were built. Sometimes I find out later that something similar to one I played in my dream DOES exist, but to play them all I would have to live forever and have an all-expenses-paid Winnebago.

When I get that, I'll come down to Atlanta, Frank, and we can go for a little ride.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Frankham
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:17 AM

Hi Susan,

My schedule suddenly has become hectic so I want to respond to you a little at a time.

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: WYSIWYG - PM
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM

I guess when we all agree to publish this we can clean up the typoes, eh?


In a workshop of 30 people or more, how do you control or at least facilitate musical interaction? Are these people trained enough to listen to each other and sometimes lay out when the music gets too busy? Are they aware of volume?


More later,

Frank

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM

Frank-- busy, me too, pastor's household in Lent, and so on.

To respond to your fresh question, I think that would all depend on the topic of the workshop and the musicianship/ability of the people in it. I certainly would not expect it, but I would be happy to notice it occurring, and toward the end of the workshop period I would expect to see it more than at the start. It's an outcome of the workshop going well.

I think you would expect to deliberately foster what you describe about listening, etc., in a workshop about how to jam, but I think in other kinds of topics people would be focused on responding musically to what is being presented by the presenter...

Now, the one I am remembering was one of people with mixed skill levels and mixed inherent musicianship, and mixed ages, too, 4 - 70. I saw there the same thing I saw in the 100+ workshop I attended and referenced above, and both were about doing fiddle tunes. In each one, we worked through a series of tunes, starting with easier ones first. Each time, the tune started out slow and ragged and all instruments going for broke on just getting the tune and the swing. Each player's focus was internal. As the repeats progressed, more and more players hooked up into hearing and playing with each other. After "enough" repeats the whole group hit the "groove" and there was sheer joy till everyone had done every variation of their own playing that they could think of, with a few people notably taking a prominent role. Since these tunes are played in unison, so there were no solos, but rather you could see people look up from their "staring into space" spot of total concentration, and start looking around at others while playing and sort of egging individual players on. These people would then play a little louder, dot the notes a little more daringly, and so forth... the group shook the tune like a blood-crazed terrier shaking a rat by the neck. Well, really, it's orgasmic.

That's one approach-- just letting it rip.

I have also seen a workshop led by a 14 year old fiddler working with a group of 30, in a more pedantic mode, one phrase at a time, demonstrate and play through an easy tune, and then putting it together as a whole. At the end of this the people from the concurrent guitar workshop joined them for a jam, and we started with the tune the fiddlers had been working on, and the guitarist instinctively let the fiddlers (many of them young kids from one very musical family) set the volume. I mean, we rhythm players had to tone it down or we'd have drowned the kids out and lost the tune. It was sweet and very delicate and lovely. None of that "aren't they cute" stuff-- real respect player to player.

I think that how a workshop functions depends on the leader's way of conducting it, and that's part of their job. The job of the participants is to cooperate with the leader's method and let them lead it.

I have had great effect by explaining to new jammers that they do have to take a turn leading a tune, but they should not worry that anyone present will actually be listening to how well they play or sing it. This is because people at a jam are working on extending their own musicianship and technical skills, and therefore they will be listening to THEMSELVES, not the song leader, and everyone present will be doing this until they all "get" the tune, and then they will be listening to each other, not the leader who started it all off. ("Oh, sorry, did you think they were actually listening to YOU? :~) They ain't!") The job of leading a tune is really just to make the melody and rhythm clear enough that people can get it and tinker up their playing to play it. Even a bad player can get enough across for the structure of the piece itself to come through, if the better players honestly attempt to play it... it's a puzzle, and if it was made right to start with, it will fit itself together in the players' minds. (Folk process again.)

I think I just have an enormous trust that people WILL get whatever they need to get, if they are doing what they love. Sometimes there is no evidence of this until long after the jam-- think of it like inputting a lot of raw data, and then allowing for the fact that the brain will sort it out later. This is because our brains love orderliness, and the order of music in particular.) It may sound godawful till it sorts itself out, but it usuallly does sort itself out if you really trust this inner musicalness human beans are wired with.

There are ways I think about this that touch on my spiritual orientation, and that would be another whole thing to write about.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: GUEST,lewis beck
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:30 PM

You were asking about teaching folk music in a group of 30 or more. I teach fiddle in a group setting, although never that many. However, in principle, what I have found works is to get the more advanced students to teach the beginners. Now, I don't know if that is useful in your context but it does work. You act as a kind of facilitator, moving from group to group, seeing how they are all doing and helping out here and there.

Is that of any use?

I would appreciate being in contact with other people who are doing the same thing as I am. My email address is [e-mail]

Regards, Lewis

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Frankham
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:00 AM

Hi Susan,

Thanks so much for your detailed response. Very useful information!

The approach about people learning to function in a jam by listening to themselves first had not ocurred to me.

Each person leading the tune sounds great also.

There is something to be said for following a general pattern of the tune to learn it by hearing a group of people doing it.

At what point does the participant really start to hear what's going on with the others in the group?

I believe as you do that the musical process can "sort itself out" but it's frustrating for me to deal with a room full of folks who are not listening to one another at the outset. I guess this is why I prefer smaller groups of people.



"I think you would expect to deliberately foster what you describe about listening, etc., in a workshop about how to jam,"

This is my focus with a group of people. How to make music regardless of level or experience.

The kind of workshop with fiddle tunes seems to be one in which the melody line is the focus...getting the tune right and other aspects are subordinate to that. I can see that this would have an element of excitement for the participants.

The pedantic approach with the fiddler is the least exciting for me. I think that it becomes too much like rote or a classical music approach, each phrase worked on at a time.

But the idea of bringing the guitarists in afterward seems right to me.

My approach is to get to the point where the group leads itself. It has a dynamic which is discovered and carries forth the music. I determine what key a song is best sung in by having everyone sing the tune without reference to any pitch. Whichever key predominates, then that's what's used.

I'd like to hear about your spiritual orientation to what you're doing. That sounds very interesting.

More later,

Frank

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:25 AM

I will write about it, Frank, but it may be awhile before I post it. I want to chew it over some first.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:15 PM

Sorry to be so late, but I hope I can still contribute something--

I developed sort of system where I teach a basic set of playing skills by using familiar songs--my beginners guitar classes run 8-10 weeks, and by the end, I want my students to be able to play in all the open keys, to be able to play a a number of basic rhythms, I want them to be able to know, use, and recognize several standard chord patterns, and to have learned and be able to play between ten and fifteen songs-

I also want them to be able to play in duple and triple, and compound meters, to count, and to memorize chord progression, and, most important, to be able to pull this all together when playing with others--

I have seen too many people who have taken guitar lessons for weeks, months, and years, without having anything tangible to show for it, and I was determined that my students would really be able to play the songs that they worked on, and that they'd be able to use what they knew as a basis to learn other things, either with or without me--

When I was hired to teach, it was not specifically to teach "folk",
but I discovered quickly that people know it and understand it better than popular stuff--also, songs that are popular today are often forgotten tomorrow, and I feel that if a beginner is going to invest a lot of energy in learning a song ought to be able to use it for a while--

One thing that I learned to do, with beginners, was to teach songs with easy to memorize chord changes--I have them count out and memorize the changes at the beginning of each lesson(even if they can't play them through) so there is one less thing to be confused about--

I run my classes as a benevolent dictator--the people who try to direct things themselves get gently but quickly pulled back on track--One of the my big challenges is to always make sure that the group's time and effort are not being wasted, and at the same time, that people are getting everything--

I always conduct class with a lot of back and forth, and spend time with each student in turn so that everyone gets personal attention, but no one is in the hot seat for too long--

I teach by breaking everything down into phrases, and I emphasize the importance of getting each part down before moving on to the next, I borrow a bit from dance teachers, and often the "One, two, three, four, five, six, sev-en,eight" thing--my secret trick is to select material that doesn't have too many parts--


I teach advanced classes as if I was leading a band(when you think about it, a bandleader is really a teacher), excepting that I teach everyone all the parts(I often write arrangements with with a series of interchangable parts and have each player play them in a different order)

As per the question about when people start to listen to themselves(and the people they are playing with), I think it only happens after they've mastered the part they are playing--I try to keep the parts/changes easy to learn so people can spend most of their time concentrating on the sound and feel--

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:19 PM

Glad to see you weigh in! Do you recall the thread about guitar skills I referenced above? Can you make a link to your posts there or paste them in, if you think they apply here? It was... specific and MEMORABLE.... ;~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM

I am not sure which thread you are talking about, Susan--also, I am also not quite sure what Frank's comment about not being able to teach anyone anything means--I don't think it relates to the mechanics of playing, which are simple enough to lay out, or to the structural/theoretic aspect of it, which can be communicated, but he may be more concerned with the process that takes players from simply repeating what someone has showed them, to making it their own personal expression--

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 03:33 PM

I was thinking of starting a new thread, but thought reviving this one might be a better bet for a variation on this theme ...

I've been asked if anyone can recommend good books or articles on the teaching of folk music – any aspects. The person enquiring isn't looking for teaching resources, but books on the theory and practice of teaching and learning of traditional music.

All suggestions very gratefully received!

With thanks,

sian

Subject: RE: Teaching folk music
From: Mark Clark
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 06:05 PM

I meant to post in this thread when it was new but evidently got sidetracked.

From my point of view, Frank Hamilton virtually invented the teaching of folk music. I can't imagine what I could add to what Frank has taught all of us. I sat in on a class at the OTSFM a few months back and the methods Frank, Win Strake, Fleming Brown, et al., pioneered are still as effective as ever. I have taught individual students but I think the class environment is better, certainly for beginners. It overcomes shyness, promotes community, motivates through peer pressure, all things difficult to do in a private setting. The organized sings/jams then provide a way for students to reinforce and demonstrate their progress.

Thank you, Frank.

      - Mark