BS: Arafat's $300 million

Subject: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST,Water Pricehouse
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:54 AM

Despite billions in foreign aid, most of the people living in the Palestinian territories live in poverty.

Their leader, Yasser Arafat does not come from a family with inherited wealth. He has never been a businessman. He has never had a job other than being leader of, first, the PLO, and now, the Palestinian Authority.

And yet, in the past decade, Arafat has amassed a personal fortune, most of it kept in French banks, of more than $300 million U.S. dollars.

The facts and figures have been documented in Forbes Magazine's list of the world's "richest Kings, Queens and Despots."

Even if Arafat's salary was as much as that of the President of the United States, it would take 1500 years with no living expenses to amass that kind of fortune.

Could it be that Arafat is corrupt?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:05 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Bagpuss
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM

It's always helpful to provide a link to or a source of this sort of information....

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:31 AM

Bagpuss,

You will find it on www.news.com.au

But to save you the trouble - here's the article:

Arafat, Castro, Saddam among world's wealthiest rulers from Sydney Morning Herald

Text of article replaced by link. --JoeClone, 2-Mar-04.

By the way if you go into Google and type in Forbes Magazine, scroll down you will see a link to an article "Auditing Arafat" - read that it will explain the where and how of Arafat's means to acquire such wealth - It didn't come from wages or fees from lecture tours.

Interesting to see old Saddam up there with the big earners - and here's me thinking that he does what he does from the goodness of his heart and out of love for his country and people.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:32 AM

link to Forbes article which isn't very informative.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM

I'd like to see how G. W. Bush's fortune compares to that of the average wage earner in the US, and exactly how he go it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM

(got it)

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:52 AM

But he'd be going some to beat Saddam judged by the same criteria - right Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM

Hard to say, Teribus, without the numbers, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:39 AM

I don't see why anyone would be surprised by anyone's presence on the list. Power tends to accumulate wealth. Access to wealth tends to make you wealthy.

I remember reading years ago about Jim Bakker and Tammy Fay during that scandal of greed and corruption, that when the staff were counting the money that came in from the faithful in its millions, Bakker would on occasion grab up a fistful of the cash and hand it to someone. When no one has the authority to make you accountable, you tend not to account for things.

When you are working with food in a kitchen and are in charge of doling it out to starving but anonymous people, it would very probably be difficult not to give your own children more food than to the crowds outside the door.

Those who do not cave in to that mindset are the remarkable people in our midst. He who is without sin may cast the first stone.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Troll
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:45 PM

However much Bush is worth, CarolC, heprobably didn't get it by skimming off money that was supposed to go to feed his starving people. Saddam did just that with the oil for food program
Here's how.
Every month, Saddam has to ask the UN for permission to sell oil and name the asking price. He always sets a price at least $.50/bbl. below the going market rate.
The oil is then sold- usually to brokers- at that price. But here's the kicker.
Saddam tacks on a $.30 surcharge. This is paid directlyto him with, if you will, a separate check. The middleman goes along because he is getting the oil at $.20/bbl. below market price. He can then re-sell the oil at market and make a tidy profit.
Who suffers? The Iraqis, of course.
So regardless of how venal George Bush might be, he is a piker compared to Saddam. He's not even in the same league.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:00 PM

Now CarolC - let's C

"G. W. Bush's fortune compares to that of the average wage earner in the US"

Saddam Hussein judged on the same criteria which would be:

"Saddam Hussein's fortune compares to that of the average wage earner in Iraq"

Any arguement so far??

Now Saddam is worth $2 billion the fortune of the average wage earner in Iraq is $?? - but I would venture a guess that it is not a great deal.

No figures for George W - he didn't even feature on the Forbes List - We can deduce from that that it is nowhere close to Saddam's "modest nest egg" (solely acquired while conscientiously doing his duty protecting and nurturing the people of Iraq). The average wage earner in America can safely be assumed to be earning more than his counterpart in Iraq - Yes??

See what way the maths are heading Carol?? - I do

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM

I'm surprised, troll, that you are equating Hussein and Bush. Surely it's not a mark of virtue in Bush that he doesn't equal in venality a known despot and murderer? I'd think you'd be better off making a case for Bush in another way.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:13 PM

Well, first of all, we really need to be looking into the whole Bush family to get a real sense of what we're dealing with. And we would need to take a look at the Bush family's holdings in corporations that have a financial interest in wanting to wage war. And to what extent his family's fortune was gotten honestly, or by exploitation (which is, really, what is wrong with how Saddam got his money). And the extent to which his family got their money through war profiteering. And then we could see what his real worth is, and whether or not it is blood money.

And then we could see whether or not he is a piker compared to other known despots.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:25 PM

And then there was Silverado and Enron to which they are connected...

meanwhile in Cuba people who've begun to grow their own urban vegetable gardens can average an abundant $30 per month selling to other urban-dwellers while a teacher is lucky to receive about $20 per month. The urban gardening is a model for other cities and being studied as such, but it's another case of earning disparities, though not as dramatic as have been noted above.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: DougR
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 05:54 PM

The Bush's will be filing an income tax return Carol. Usually the amount any president pays in taxes is printed in the media. I think you're comparing apples with oranges anyway. The Bush family did not gain their wealth by stealing it from the mouths of citizens as Saddam has. If you think they did, you made the charge, show us your proof! Also, kat, if Bush made a bundle off Enron, tell us how much please.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 06:06 PM

You learning your tactics from Rush, Doug? I didn't say he made a bundle, I said the family was connected to Enron. If you didn't already know that, you must not read very much legitimate news. For starters, I would suggest reading this article, then perhaps the one it references in the NYTimes, as well others easily found.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:08 PM

DougR, I would like to see some independent investigations of GW, and the rest of the Bush family, and any and all connections to companies that have been bailed out at taxpayer expense, such as Silverado Savings and Loan, and all of the companies that the Bush family has holdings in that stand to profit from war with Iraq or anything else that costs the taxpayers money. This is a request for information on my part. Not an assertion of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:36 AM

Well Carol, if you are willing to pay my fee of $100 per hour to research that question I'd be glad to take a shot at it. :>) If you really are that curious, though, you could save some money by researching it yourself!

kat: whatever would we do without "article" and opinion pieces? I don't think Bush has ever disputed that he was friends with the officers of Enron has he? That does not make him a co-conspirator of the Enron scandal however. Guilt by association? That's been disputed by every liberal thinking person I know, you agree?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 02:41 AM

Hiya Doug,

CarolC in her post above is not only comparing apples to oranges - she's wriggling - in that:

1. She is now changing the criteria of the comparison that she herself set.

2. "And we would need to take a look at the Bush family's holdings in corporations that have a financial interest in wanting to wage war."

In this she must lump together all the other share-holders in the same corporations and tar them with the same brush - she will probably find listed under the stock holders, all major pension schemes, all major insurance companies, etc, etc, all the way down to her average American wage earner.

3. "And to what extent his family's fortune was gotten honestly, or by exploitation (which is, really, what is wrong with how Saddam got his money)."

"Honestly, or by exploitation", Carol will of course be the sole arbiter of which is which - working as she may do within a capitalist system, taking all the benefits that that system offers, she no doubt insists scrupulously in working for the absolute bare minimum wage required for her to survive, does not save, does not invest and refuses any bonus payment any employer may offer her. Exploitation for mutual benefit is how the capitalist system works, and it generally works extremely well. That is more than can be said for the alternative doctrine which has fallen completely by the wayside having been proved, corrupt, inefficient and in effectual.

4. "And the extent to which his family got their money through war profiteering. And then we could see what his real worth is, and whether or not it is blood money." On this "charge" the entire nation would stand accused, not only the Bush family.

No Carol - you are wriggling.

PS Doug - I liked the $100 per hour research fee - unfortunately I don't think you will be taken up on it - Carol might think you are exploiting her.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:43 AM

In addition, should be pretty easy to research how big a bundle Grandpa Bush made for the family fortune by illegally trading with the Nazis, too. That way he could do the exploiting and stealing by proxy- and pretend his hands were clean. The American Way!

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:06 AM

A couple of others for you Greg F:

During the Passchendale (Sp?) offensive in the First World War the British Government was paying Krupp something like a penny farthing for every shell fired at the german lines by British guns.

In the Second World War SOE was paying the German Gestapo for engine parts to maintain and run "Shetland" Larsen's buses.

Strange circumstances produce strange bed-fellows - for a whole raft of reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:00 AM

The German Navy's flags were made in Birmingham. When the Hood was sunk, the Bismarck was flying an ensign made in England. Go figure eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:09 AM

How exactly does shitty and illegal behavior by others justify and legitimize shitty and illegal behavior by Bush ?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:19 AM

This thread started by questioning how Arafat's corruption lined his personal pockets with $300 million. Quickly though, CarolC, diverted attention away from the corrupt Palestinian chairman to our own leader, thus proving yet again, that it is we Americans who are the root of all evil on this planet.

Let us never again wonder where from comes the moral authority for 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:34 AM

Damn, guest! A politician using his position, power and influence for personal financial gain. Who knew? I'm sure no politician in the history of the U.S. or any other nation has been guilty of that.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:25 PM

Teribus, you're full of shit. And I'm not going to lower myself far enough to your level to even try to answer most of your bullshit assertions. But I will answer this one:

"Honestly, or by exploitation", Carol will of course be the sole arbiter of which is which - working as she may do within a capitalist system, taking all the benefits that that system offers, she no doubt insists scrupulously in working for the absolute bare minimum wage required for her to survive, does not save, does not invest and refuses any bonus payment any employer may offer her. Exploitation for mutual benefit is how the capitalist system works, and it generally works extremely well. That is more than can be said for the alternative doctrine which has fallen completely by the wayside having been proved, corrupt, inefficient and in effectual."

I have lived far below the poverty line for my entire adult life. I lived on approximately $6,000 US per year for about ten years because I was too ill to work. My illness is related to overexposure to toxic substances in my home and work environments. I have experienced not being able to afford enough food to eat. Yes... I know what it's like to go hungry. As an adult, I have never had access to adequate dental care, which only made my health problems worse. I am now (having recently married someone who was in better financial circumstances than me), for the first time in my adult life, able to get some of my dental problems addressed and now, BIG surprise, I'm starting to get a LITTLE bit less ill.

For the first time in many years, I don't face the spector of going hungry at the end of the month. For the first time in many years, I'm getting adequate nutrition. For the first time in many years, I can afford to eat fresh vegetables on a regular basis. Maybe some day I'll even be able to work again.

I know a LOT about poverty. You, apparently know jack shit about it. You, Sir, are a bastard of the first order.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:36 PM

And by the way -

I kept getting the same line of bullshit you like to give about the things that made me sick being "safe". But somehow that doesn't seem to have prevented me from being sick anyway. There are real, people with real suffering behind your theoretical bullshit. Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:39 PM

Teribus, my normal fee for research is $250 per hour, but I was willing to give Carol C., a special fellow Mudcatter price. I'm telling you this because I don't want others to think I would work for as little as $100 per hour on a regular basis.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:26 PM

Teribus-the idea of exploitation for mutual gain is an oxymoron. The definition of exploitation prevents the exploitee from benefiting. The system doesn't work particularly well, as innumerable Gilded Age and modern Third world laborers could tell you. The capitalist system focuses on the profit of the individual, not the gain of society, and it shows. How else do you explain the ridiculous amounts of money thrown away on advertising so that one company can get a larger share of the market, with all of the costs passed on to the consumer?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:38 PM

Doug, leaving out the op/ed genre, what else would you read, of news, were it not an article? An essay, a report? What's the dif?

Did you read the article I linked?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:53 PM

Yes, kat, I read the David Corn article. One could hardly point to Corn as an objective reporter I think. Whenever Diane Rheme needs somebody on her NPR program to beat up on the Bush family she gets old David before the microphone. Anyway, the article contains some history and a lot of speculation. I saw nothing that would convince me that GWB had any official connection with Enron while in the White House. 1986 was a long time ago.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 05:44 PM

By the way, DougR, what I want to see are in depth investigations by an independent investigator into the Bush fmaily, not just some on-line research. I know I'll never get that, but it's what I would like to see happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 07:05 AM

Forum Lurker - so in the entire world there is no such thing as a win-win situation? Well I'll be damned - I've come across that particular phenomenon quite often.

CarolC - The Guest above who pointed out the deflection you introduced has a very valid point. Why do you not want to discuss Yassir Arafat's accumulation of $300 million? while the people to whom he is supposed to be providing political leadership to are suffering so badly.

On the subject of Yassir Arafat - man of the people - the article I referred to "Auditing Arafat" explains how up until now Yassir Arafat controls the purse strings to the extent of signing away PA funds for amounts as small as $600 to the millions of dollars he spent buying arms from Iran - the last purchase was a bit of a bummer as the Israelis intercepted the shipment and confiscated it.

Talking about lines of bullshit (theoretical or otherwise) nothing I have said can, in any way, match your attributing the suffering of the world, past, present and future to a single man and his administration who have only been in power for just over two years - That is bullshit!!

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: DougR
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM

I'm confident, Carol C, that if there is a "story" there (Bush family fortune and how they got it) some energetic biased writer like David Corn would have the book in Border's and Barnes & Noble by now.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:43 PM

Nowhere, Teribus, have I "attribut(ed) the suffering of the world, past, present and future to a single man and his administration who have only been in power for just over two years".

More bullshit from you.

DougR, I wish I shared your confidence.

On the subject of why I'm not focusing like a lazer on Arafat like some where think I should. Because I think that, although corruption by Arafat is probably a big problem for the people of Palestine, compared with the horrors thay have to deal with in the form of the right wing government in Israel, Arafat is small potatoes.

On the subject of why I think we should include Bush and his family in our scrutiny when we look at this sort of thing, the Bush family has had their collective fingers in pivotal goings on for a long, long time. And many legitimate questions have been raised about the possibility of conflict of interest with the roles they have played in the public service arena. I think these fall into the same category as the other people mentioned, and it's stupidly hyprcritical for some people to be pointing fingers at only the ones they can use to make political hay.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:51 PM

There is an extensive and very interesting article here on the Bush family and how they made their money starting out in the oil business. It's long, but worth reading, imo, esp. near the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 01:43 PM

Teribus "Talk about lines of Bullshit!" You arrogantly and stupidly assume you know Carol's financial situation to the point where you make the conversation personal. Is that a usual tactic for you when you run out of your other Bullshit?

You don't even have the acuity to interpret the sources that you use in your own argument.

This is from "Auditing Arafat"

"An Israeli intelligence report pegs Arafat's personal holdings at $1.3 billion (a claim dubbed "ridiculous" by the Arafat camp), but Israeli officials say Arafat uses his largesse mainly to buy friendships."

He uses the money to "Buy Friendships" Do you think he needs 300 million to pay people to play golf with him? A more politically savvy person might think that he buys friends to govern Palestine and fight for the freedom of his people. Don't bother to say that using money in this way is corrupt. That is exactly what Bush is doing now in Turkey and Afghanistan and what he plans to do in Iraq, buying friends. That's how he got elected for crissakes! He got the money to do that by SELLING his favours. Every politician in the west does it and every one is to some degree "corrupt" but not as arrogantly and openly as Bush.

Forbes says that Castro is personally wealthy and comes up with a dollar figure by calculating his "wealth" as a percentage of Cuba's GNP. If I have to explain to you why that is dubious then you have no place in an adult discussion of economics.

This quote is nothing but rhetorical bullshit " match your attributing the suffering of the world, past, present and future to a single man and his administration who have only been in power for just over two years " No where has Carol blamed Bush for "ALL of the Suffering in the world" she has blamed Sharon, Clinton and a host of others for what she feels is their share of the blame. In this thread is in effect saying about Bush, Sharon and their supporters. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." It's a simple, basic theme in her writing on these subjects and if you were to give her the slightest credit for intelligence you would be able to understand that message. Apparently you are too wrapped up in your own "Bullshit" and flawed reasoning to respond to anything but your "hot buttons".

Teribus, did YOU learn you debating skills from Limbaugh? Does he have counterparts in England? The next time you make a personal attack, you would do well to make sure that what your information comes from some other source than your fertile imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 04:15 AM

CarolC,

Regarding your statement:

"Nowhere, Teribus, have I "attribut(ed) the suffering of the world, past, present and future to a single man and his administration who have only been in power for just over two years".

Didn't you say earlier in this thread:

"Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government."

Jack the Sailor (Carol's husband):

"You arrogantly and stupidly assume you know Carol's financial situation to the point where you make the conversation personal."

Lets take a look at what I DID say:

"..working as she may do ..."

What the hell does MAY mean Jack? - in the context of what I went on to say it specifically implies that I have NO knowledge of Carol's financial position. Exactly the same as neither Carol or yourself have any knowledge of mine.

With regard to personal insult and attack:

Carol's words:

"Teribus, you're full of shit."

That was her opening remark in response to:

"Honestly, or by exploitation", Carol will of course be the sole arbiter of which is which - working as she may do within a capitalist system, taking all the benefits that that system offers, she no doubt insists scrupulously in working for the absolute bare minimum wage required for her to survive, does not save, does not invest and refuses any bonus payment any employer may offer her."

Again her closing remarks within the same post:

"I know a LOT about poverty. You, apparently know jack shit about it. You, Sir, are a bastard of the first order."

And you two, have got the complete and utter gall to whine and complain about personal insult and attack.

Taking the statements made in order:

"I know a LOT about poverty." - from Carol's post, I have no doubt that she does.

"You, apparently know jack shit about it." - pure supposition, founded on a complete and utter lack of knowledge.

"You, Sir, are a bastard of the first order." - Personal insult to both myself and to my family. That statement, made in print, in an open forum in my country constitutes libel, and a libel that is easily proved - as both my parents were married to each other at the time of my birth.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 04:41 PM

Didn't you say earlier in this thread:

"Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government."

I certainly did. And it is quite a stretch for you to extrapolate from it that I was suggesting that all of the world's suffering is the fault of Bush and the US government.

For instance, if I said, "I feel sorry for that guy who just died in a car accident. Same goes for everyone else who has or will die in a car accident", would I be saying that I think everyone in the world is going to die in a car accident? I don't think so.

If my sentence were to have the meaning you have chosen to give it, it would need to look more like this: "Same goes for everyone in the world, who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government".

And even then it would be a stretch to get your meaning out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM

Teribus you ignorant slut! Thank you! I am enjoying this game of "point-counterpoint" with you. It's not often one encounters such an accommodating straight man.

Yes indeed I am Carol's husband. I'm in her corner and I'm sticking up for her.

You started the personal attacks by, in a very snide and patronizing way, calling Carol a hypocrite. You couldn't have been more wrong. Putting MAY in there doesn't get you off the hook. If it did, I could say "Teribus MAY f*** donkeys". But of course I cannot.

As for your idiotic claims of "Libel". I welcome you to bring suit. For one who is so pompous, you do not seem to be familiar with some of the subtleties of the English language. Calling someone a "bastard" is not always meant to be taken literally. In this case, I believe she was trying to communicate to you that you are behaving like an insufferable ass. Please feel free to contact me if you require further clarification.   

As for the supposition that "you know jack shit about poverty", judging from what I have read, I see a huge gap between what you think you know and what actually are able to communicate. It is difficult to suppose that you know "jack shit" about ANYTHING.   

My supposition is that you are rude and thoughtless. I also suppose that you don't put much thought into your political posts. I would be pleasantly surprised and delighted if you were to prove me wrong.

BTW when you go to see your barrister or solicitor, please show him the following. It is the Webster's dictionary definition of "bastard". You may be interested in the third meaning. It is my supposition that Carol could not have chosen a more apt word.

Yours Truly
Rob Dale (CaroC's proud husband)

Main Entry: bas·tard
Pronunciation: 'bas-t&rd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, probably of Germanic origin; akin to Old Frisian bost marriage, Old English bindan to bind
Date: 14th century
1 : an illegitimate child
2 : something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin
3 a : an offensive or disagreeable person -- used as a generalized term of abuse

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:42 PM

Teribus-I didn't say there was no such thing as a win-win situation. What I said was that it cannot result from two people exploiting each other, as exploitation is deriving benefit from someone to that person's detriment. Cooperation is what produces win-win situations.

Teribus, CarolC, and Jack the Sailor- PLEASE, can you continue your squabbling somewhere other than a public forum? Regardless of who is in the right, you are displaying the sort of immaturity that gets four-year-olds sent to their rooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:53 PM

If you go back and look at past threads that start out as being critical of Arafat, CarolC will make it about somebody else, in this case Dubya, and then, ultimately, the thread becomes about CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 10:10 PM

Funny thing about that, GUEST. Every time I try to provide some balance in a discussion of Israel/Palestine, someone rakes me over the coals for it. It's the darndest thing. Personally I would prefer that the discussion not be about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:29 PM

Carol, some clarification, please? I understand what you meant, but your examples up above are exactly the same except for the comma which, imo, doesn't make enough of a difference to illustrate your point:

Didn't you say earlier in this thread:

"Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government."

Etc..., then:

If my sentence were to have the meaning you have chosen to give it, it would need to look more like this: "Same goes for everyone in the world, who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government".

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST,Water Pricehouse
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 09:06 AM

Funny thing about that, GUEST. Every time I try to provide some balance in a discussion of Israel/Palestine, someone rakes me over the coals for it. It's the darndest thing. Personally I would prefer that the discussion not be about me.

Funny thing, CarolC. This thread was not started as a discusussion of Israel/Palestine. It was supposed to be about how a leader with no obvious sources of great uncome, other than stealing from the billions in foreign aid that the Palestinian Authority has received from the Eestern democracies that he hates so much, came to have $300 million in his personal French bank accounts, while most of his people live in abject poverty.

But somehow, anytime there's a Mudcat thread about Arafat, you end up making it about yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:04 AM

GUEST,Water Pricehouse-It's posts like this that lead to the impression of xenophobia here. Getting involved in a flame war that was petty for established members probably isn't the best way to introduce yourself.

katlaughing-the difference is that the first one is a qualifier, those members of the set "everyone in the world" who also belong to the set "has or will suffer because of George Bush and the U.S. government." The second one is saying that the two sets are equivalent, that everyone who is in the first is also in the second.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 11:10 AM

"Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government."

In this sentence there is more than one possible way to interpret what is being said. There is the meaning I had in mind, that I am including only those people who, among all of the people in the world, has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government. I gave an examiple of that meaning with this sentence, "I feel sorry for that guy who just died in a car accident. Same goes for everyone else who has or will die in a car accident". With this example, it should be pretty clear to most people that I am talking about a specific group of people, ie: those who have or will die in car accidents.

In this example, "Same goes for everyone in the world, who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government". The comma after "world" could be used to separate the two parts of the sentence. ie: Same goes for everyone in the world. Everyone in the world has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government.

As I said, it would be quite a stetch to get that meaning out of my sentence, even with the comma.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 11:13 AM

I should have paid more attention to Forum Lurker's post. He explained it well.

Forum Lurker, Water Pricehouse is not a newbie. He/she has been here a long time and is just trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:02 PM

$300M ? Wow. I wish I had that kinda dough. I might even try to help an oppressed people gain political, religeous and economic freedom or something. Gee, is it hot in here or is just me ?

Yeah riiiight ! If he was just a crook, he'd be long gone. With $300M, he could buy an island somewhere cosy and screw happily ever after. Now, I do not purport to know even the slightest about any of this discussion or the conflict(s), but I can add and subtract. And, if I was crook, I woulda subtracted myself at far less that $100M and let the discussion and conflict(s) continue without me. Ergo, if he stole $, he didn't steal it for personal gain... and I'm not saying he's right or wrong, I'm only saying what I said.

BTW JtS, give em anudder right twixt the lookers fer me. I gotta go ice me knee and Bud me brain now. As for this thread and the conflict, too bad we all ain't Newfs... did a job this morning where the owners, an eldery couple, were both from the Rock. I was about to get me ladder out of the back of the truck when the Mrs. of the house hollered at his nibs an he went into the garage an brought one out so's I didn't hafta go out in the cold to the truck. Salt of the earth I says. Hmmmm, has anyone checked Tobin's offshore accounts ?