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Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer

McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 03 - 08:07 PM
robomatic 17 Mar 03 - 08:09 PM
Áine 17 Mar 03 - 08:15 PM
Bobert 17 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM
smallpiper 17 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 03 - 08:39 PM
InOBU 17 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM
GUEST 17 Mar 03 - 08:46 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 03 - 08:47 PM
GUEST,Nacker 17 Mar 03 - 08:47 PM
InOBU 17 Mar 03 - 08:55 PM
SINSULL 17 Mar 03 - 09:10 PM
GUEST 17 Mar 03 - 09:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 03 - 09:21 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 03 - 09:59 PM
InOBU 17 Mar 03 - 10:38 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM
Malcolm Douglas 18 Mar 03 - 12:10 AM
Forum Lurker 18 Mar 03 - 01:00 AM
open mike 18 Mar 03 - 01:51 AM
open mike 18 Mar 03 - 01:55 AM
open mike 18 Mar 03 - 01:58 AM
Wolfgang 18 Mar 03 - 04:03 AM
Troll 18 Mar 03 - 04:53 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Mar 03 - 05:15 AM
Troll 18 Mar 03 - 05:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 05:27 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Mar 03 - 05:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 05:30 AM
Bagpuss 18 Mar 03 - 06:32 AM
Suffet 18 Mar 03 - 06:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 07:44 AM
Wolfgang 18 Mar 03 - 07:48 AM
Beccy 18 Mar 03 - 09:29 AM
Bagpuss 18 Mar 03 - 09:52 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 09:58 AM
Beccy 18 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 10:10 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM
Troll 18 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM
Forum Lurker 18 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM
Troll 18 Mar 03 - 11:07 AM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 11:24 AM
DougR 18 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Guest, Push Me Pull You 18 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM
Forum Lurker 18 Mar 03 - 01:37 PM
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Subject: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:07 PM

"army bulldozer crushes US peace protester"

"An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist to death in the Gaza Strip yesterday in what witnesses described as a deliberate killing. Rachel Corrie, 23, died as she attempted to prevent the military destroying homes in the Rafah refugee camp, one of the most dangerous in the occupied territories."

I don't post this with a view to starting an acrimonious thread. But I think this deserves to be noticed, and what with all the news about war, it's the kind of thing that gets seqeezed out of the media - especially when the media has an agenda of its own, and she was protesting against "the wrong people". And "BS" didn't seem the right heading.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:09 PM

I submit that BS is the perfect heading. This should get re-posted in the proper place.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Áine
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:15 PM

Dear Kevin,

When I heard this story on the radio this morning, I thought that surely one of the Mudcatters would be able to write a song to the memory of this brave young woman -- and I knew that you would be the perfect person to do so. So, I'm not surprised that you were the one to begin a thread about Rachel.

I hope that you can reach that wonderful part of you, where your most beautiful poetry lives, and put words to music for this young life.

Thank you so much for the songs you have given us.

Le meas is grá is mise Áine


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM

Thanks fir posting this, McGrath. I heard about this yesterday and cut out the article from the Washington Post (with photo) and have carried it around with me in my shirt pocket all day.

A real sweet looking girl. I heard a tape of her on Pacifica this morning and she sounded like a sweet girl, too.

The Isrealis are claiming it was an accident but the witnesses, of which there were mnay, say it was deliberate. They even report that the bulldozer made a second pass over Rachel Corrie.

This world is out of control insane and, unfortunately, it seems that the US and its allies are the ones responsible for most of it with their arrogant, anti-human, anti-earth policies.

But this is an obituary. My prayers go out to the familiy of Rachel Corrie tonight!

Sweet kid who, though saddened by her death, am very proud. These 20 something kids have something special in their moral make up that gives me hope that the planet will strvive the idiots who have hyjacked it.

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: smallpiper
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM

Its such a pity that the Israile's have learnd fuck all from what the nazi's did to them! And don't give me any sanctimonious shite they are behaving as badly as the bastards who tried to eliminate them.

They should be ashamed of themselves!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:39 PM

You may note, robomatic, that the line at the top of the threads about the splitting system says "BS/Non-music threads are listed below".

This is (at this point anyway) a non-music thread, and could well belong in that part of the page - but the death of a brave young women protesting against brutality is not what I think of as "BS".

What this reminded me of was the famous newsfilm we all saw of the lone protestor in China standing in front of a column of advancing tanks, with his shopping bag in his hands. And the tanks stopped rather than run him over.

Searching form anything about this through Google didn't throw up much - until I typed in Rachel's home state, Washington, with her name, and up came this page about commemorations of September 11th one year after, and her name crops up way down the page - "Convergence for Peace at Percival Landing: Percival Landing will be a peace place all day Wednesday, starting with a dawn vigil beginning before the sun rises at 6:44 a.m. The first plane hit the World Trade Center one year ago at 6:45 Pacific Daylight Time. Throughout the day, people are invited to bring picnics, guitars, readings and artwork to share to create a community space for peace, social justice, anti-racism and critical thinking. A wall of reflections will be compiled throughout the day. The sponsor is the Olympia Movement for Justice and Peace, which can be reached at www.omjp.org or through Rachel Corrie at 753-1794."

And that led me to this site , with a picture of Rachel, and a note about what happened:

"The Olympia Movement for Justice & Peace, and the entire Olympia community, mourns the loss of our beloved sister, daughter, and friend, Rachel Corrie, who was killed today in Gaza by an Israeli army bulldozer as she attempted to protect a Palestinian home from demolition.

"We wish to extend our deepest sympathies to the Corrie family. Rachel was a tireless worker for social justice, a compassionate, loving, humble, even shy young woman who, over and over, put aside her own fears to promote peace and human rights, especially for those least able to protect themselves. She is an irreplaceable part of the Olympia community, and will be sorely missed."

And you'll note there's no hate in that notice, and it doesn't belong in this thread either, I'd say.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM

As to it being an accident. Quaker's young men and women who have come back from Ramalah have been verbally abused by Israelies. I would not be surprised if this was intentional. There are no words.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:46 PM

Peaceful? Click her to see a picture of Rachel Corrie teaching Palestinian children to burn the American flag.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:47 PM

And the tanks stopped

--McGrath of Harlow

I don't have a talent for writing songs, but I think this would be an excellent title for a song.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST,Nacker
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:47 PM

Developer: "Mr. Dent, have you any idea of the damage that will occur to that bulldozer if we let it run you over?"

Arthur Dent: "No, what?"

Developer: "None, whatever!"


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:55 PM

So on the scale of things in the Universe, Guest... burning a flag is not peaceful, next to, say crushing a human under a bull dozer... well as the old story goes, I would not send you to the store for eggs.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:10 PM

Several of her fellow students and teachers were interviewed on a radio show this morning. They claim that she was well aware of the danger in the region and was willing to suffer the consequences of following her conscience. I can't help but admire her courage.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:20 PM

I've always wondered why certain Mudcatters of such powerful conscience, McGrath of Harlow, CarolC, Jack the Sailor, etc., spend so much time as computer pundits in this insular little group rather than having the courage of Rachel Corrie and go put themselves on the line.

Anybody can talk the talk. It's quite another thing to walk the walk.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:21 PM

I'd be happy to see all the flags in the world burn, if it could save one life.

There was a pregnant women the other day who was killed when they bulldozed the house she was in. She was a Palestinian of course.

Maybe that was an accident. Maybe Rachel's death was as well. The ones who were driving the bulldozers will have to live with what they have done in both cases, and they know whether it was or not.

Non-violent protest, when it gets serious, does involve taking the risk of being killed, and in some cases actually being killed. Gandhi knew that. When people let hate take over because a non-violent protestor has been killed, it undermines the whole power of the protest. In this case, it's a kind of betrayal of the girl who put her body in the way of the killing machine, as if her death somehow invalidated her witness.

The word "martyr", which literally means "witness" gets thrown around too easily in the setting of Palestine and Israel. In particular it is used by Palestinians as the term for suicide bombers.

Rachel was a different kind of martyr. The best thing that could happen out of this would be if some young Palestinian, who was thinking of becoming a suicide bomber were to think again, and turn towards a type of protest that might lead instead to her kind of martyrdom, instead of the futile and horrible bombings that help to keep the extremists in power in Israel, and strengthen the influence of the other extremists among Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:59 PM

We all serve in our own way and to the best of our abilities, GUEST. Even you.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:38 PM

Hey Guest:
Being you don't put your name on anything, we don't know who the hell you are. In fact many of us HAVE been on the front lines of social change, feel free to run our names in google or whatever, and you will find we put in our time. Now, Rachel went beyond the call, but no need to assume we are arm chair activists, who ever the hell you are.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM

After viewing the pictures of her being run over twice and her mouth gushing blood I have nothing but contempt for the driver, who probably lost a loved one in a suicide bombing and was extracting a personal revenge.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:10 AM

I don't see any flag burning in the photo our nameless correspondent indicates. Perhaps it was somewhere else; out of shot, maybe, or in another country. Perhaps it was just a troublemaker's fantasy. Certainly, American and Israeli "patriots" will be doing their level best to make the girl out to be some sort of terrorist. As the two most persistent sponsors of state terrorism in the world, I suppose they would know.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:00 AM

My local newspaper, usually fairly anti-Israel, reported that the bulldozer reversed and stopped after running her over. If anyone has any evidence that it was intentional, I would rather see it than simply see allegations. The last thing non-violent protest is meant to foment is hate.

Now, for the part that will really get flak: while I admire her courage and conviction, I cannot say the same for her intelligence. Kneeling in front of a bulldozer on a narrow road and hoping that the driver will see you in time to stop is not brave, it is foolhardy. There are better ways to protest than throwing your life away.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: open mike
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:51 AM

the song that comes to mind is one in which there is a
character named Darling Corey. As the song goes,
I believe he was buried -- perhaps he was a bootlegger,
at any rate the lyrics might be made to fit since her
name is so close...I heard that her body was being held
in a hospital until the arrival of her parents to take her
home...such a sad journey and on the eve of the world coming
to the brink of such an even as looms on the horizon.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: open mike
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:55 AM

on cheking into the song, Corey was a
female, and did in fact die in the song...
These lyrics may easily be adapted to
the case of Rachel Corrie in some way...


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Subject: Lyr Add: DARLING COREY
From: open mike
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:58 AM

I hope that someone who is good with
words can make these say something
fitting to honor this brave martyr/witness.

DARLING COREY

Wake up, wake up, Darlin' Corey.
What makes you sleep so sound?
Them revenue officers a'commin'
For to tear your still-house down.

Well the first time I seen Darlin' Corey
She was settin' by the side of the sea,
With a forty-four strapped across her bosom
And a banjo on her knee.

Dig a hole, dig a hole, in the medder
Dig a hole, in the col' col' groun'
Dig a hole, dig a hole in the medder
Goin' ter lay Darlin' Corey down.

(above verse frequently used as chorus)
The next time I seen Darlin' Corey
She was standin' in the still-house door
With her shoes and stockin's in her han'
An' her feet all over the floor.

Wake up,wake up Darlin Corey.
Quit hangin' roun' my bed.
Hard likker has ruined my body.
Pretty wimmen has killed me mos' dead

Wake up, wake up my darlin';
Go do the best you can.
I've got me another woman;
You can get you another man.

Oh yes, oh yes my darlin'
I'll do the best I can,
But I'll never take my pleasure
With another gamblin' man.

Don' you hear them blue-birds singin'?
Don' you hear that mournful sound?
They're preachin' Corey's funeral
In some lonesome buryin' groun'


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:03 AM

It is very sad news.

As for songwriting, there is already at least one song about a girl crushed by a tank. It is called Watching TV' (Roger Waters) and it is about a Chinese girl crushed at Tianamen Place in June, 1989. The more peaceful outcome McGrath remembers was in May or even April, 1989.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:53 AM

Having had some experience with both tanks and bulldozers, I must agree with Forum Lurker. What happened is a tragedy all the way around, but when someone places themselves in harms way, the world should not be surprised if harm comes to them.
My prayers are with her family. These are hard times.

troll


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Subject: Lyr Add: RICHARD CORY (Edwin Arlington Robinson)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:15 AM

Anyone looking for other inspiration to write, may I suggest the poem "Richard Cory" (found Here), which has already been re-written and set to music by Simon & Garfunkel. Either the poem or the song could prove inspirational.


RICHARD CORY
Edwin Arlington Robinson. 1869?

WHENEVER Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
"Good-morning," and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich? yes, richer than a king,
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:15 AM

BTW, Malcolm Douglas, if you'll read the story below the picture, it states that Rachel Corrie was burning a mock US flag at a rally in Gaza. The stars are clearly drawn on the crude flag she is holding.
The photo is from AP and was taken by one Khalil Hamra. The story that I read about her death off the Reuters wire, stated that she was laying on the ground in front of the bulldozer and that visibility is very poor close-up in the armoured 'dozers used by the IDF.
I will assume that the Reuters report is fairly accurate as they are not known as a hot-bed of conservative thought.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:27 AM

Here's a link to a bunch of emails Rachel sent to her people back in Washington State over the February in the last few weeks after she got outvto Gaza in January - http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,916246,00.html

Worth reading, really worth reading. Here is just a taste:

Hi friends and family, and others,

I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury.

I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls.


No indication she was kneeling in front of the killdozer - what I've read is she was standing there with the others, on the rubble, and she may have stumbled. No point in pointing a finger at the driver. Maybe he didn't mean to kill her, maybe he did, either way he was just a pawn in the game. I imagine it won't be long and they'll have robots doing that kind of driving to cut out the chance of them thinking what they are doing. Maybe in a sense they already are using robots.


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Subject: Lyr Add: RICHARD CORY (Paul Simon)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:30 AM

And, for the sake of comparison:

RICHARD CORY
Paul Simon

They say that Richard Cory
Owns one half of this whole town
With political connections
To spread his wealth around
Born into society
A banker's only child
He had everything a man could want
Power, grace, and style

Chorus
But I, I work in his factory
And I curse the life I'm living
And I curse my poverty
And I wish that I could be
Oh I wish that I could be
Yes I wish that I could be
Richard Cory

The papers print his picture
Almost everywhere he goes
Richard Cory at the opera
Richard Cory at a show
And the rumours of his parties
And the orgies on his yacht
He surely must be happy
With everything he's got
Chorus

He freely gave to charity
He had the common touch
They were grateful for his patronage
And they thanked him very much
So my mind was filled with wonder
When the evening headline read
Richard Cory went home last night
And put a bullet through his head
Chorus


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:30 AM

And here's something I wrote last night.

Well I know her name was Rachel, and they say that she was shy,
And they say she's got a family to mourn,
And they live out on the West Coast, that's half a world away,
Only twenty three – she'd hardly yet been born,
But she was standing in the way of the war
Standing in the way of the war.
Standing in the path of the monster once again.
Trying to find some way to stop the killing and the pain
Standing in the way of the war.

Standing in the way of the hatred rolling down,
Standing up with nothing in her hands,
All the way from Washington to the Gaza strip she came,
And she died there with that nothing in her hands.
She was standing in the way of the war
Standing in the way of the war.
Standing in the path of the monster once again.
Trying to find some way to stop the killing and the pain
Standing in the way of the war.

Standing in the way as the crushing tracks came on,
"We shall not be moved, just like a tree"
All that she could do was put her body on the line
And hope that she could make the driver see.
She was standing in the way of the war
Standing in the way of the war.
Standing in the path of the monster once again.
Trying to find some way to stop the killing and the pain
Standing in the way of the war.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bagpuss
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:32 AM

From a guardian article


"She was standing on top of a pile of earth," said another activist, Richard Purssell, who was a few feet away. "The driver cannot have failed to see her. As the blade pushed the pile, the earth rose up. Rachel slid down the pile. It looks as if she got her foot caught. The driver didn't slow down; he just ran over her. Then he reversed the bulldozer back over her again. She was very courageous."

Other activists said the bulldozer had approached from several metres away and that Ms Corrie, who was wearing a brightly coloured jacket, was waving and they were shouting at the driver to stop but he ignored them.

Witnesses said another protester had been slightly injured about half an hour earlier when the same bulldozer knocked him into barbed wire.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Suffet
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:51 AM

Regarding that photo from February 15, it is ambiguous at best. It looks like she is holding a child's drawing with a couple of stars, one thin red line, and one thin blue line. Is that an American flag? Maybe, and maybe not. And anyway it is unclear what she is doing with it. But even if she is burning a representation of Old Glory, is that not a peaceful protest? It may offend some people, but it is certainly not violent. And were it here in the USA it would still be Constitutionally protected free speech.

I don't know who our anonymous GUEST is, but he/she is merely trying to defame Rachel Corrie's memory and belittle her activism. I wish he/she would have the courage to reveal his/her identity.

As for my own identity, just do Google searches for "Stephen Suffet" and for "Steve Suffet" and you will know more about me than I know about myself.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:44 AM

I've stuck that song of mine up on my song website, with a streaming audio file (Real Audio) - Rachel Corrie

(And here's a link direct to the sound file.)


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:48 AM

"burns a makeshift US flag" has been taken by the international press agencies directly from the Rafah based peace activists' publication about that incident in February 2003. They have been there, they have published that sentence. I think that settles it. That the young woman in their publication then was named 'Alice' had another easily understandable reason. The similarity of 'Alice' and Rachel is too obvious.

link for documentation

But does it matter here who is right about that detail? I don't think so.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Beccy
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:29 AM

I know a man who accidentally ran over his own son in a bulldozer. The boy, 3 years old, was supposed to be indoors, but snuck out and made the fatal mistake of playing behind his Dad's bulldozer. When his Dad backed over him he died almost instantly. The boy didn't know any better.

What's my point? I feel horrible for Rachel Corrie's death, but she was in a situation where she was aware of the danger. She probably did not go to the protest expecting to die, but surely she went expecting some conflict. That is, after all, why she was in the region- to try to end conflict.

I pray that her soul is at rest. I also pray that this does not become something that it isn't.

Beccy


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bagpuss
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:52 AM

I think pointing out that she was in a dangerous situation voluntarily, misses the point. The point is that the Palestinian people are not in that situation voluntarily and have to live with this terror every day. And there are plenty of palestinians killed in a similar manner, its just that they dont get the same attention. What this woman and many other brave souls like her did is to put themselves in considerable danger in order to highlight what is happening there and to try to protect some of the people having their homes and lives destroyed by the Israeli Army.

If this was an *accident* - I am sure there have been many other similar accidents caused because of the disregard for human life shown by the Israeli Army (ie it is an accident mainly because they don't even bother to check whether there are any people in the way).

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM

I'd be happy to see all the flags in the world burn, if it could save one life.

Unfortunately, McGrath, burning flags, real flags or mock flags, will not save any lives. On the contrary, when Rachel Corrie burned that flag in front of Palestinian children, she was reenforcing hatred. That is hardly the act of a peace loving person. As you well know, the hatred taught to the Palestinian children has too often led them into situations where they will be killed. Be they rock throwers or be they terrorist suicide murderers.

Here in America, burning an American flag may be protected by freedom of speech. However, if you go to a football or baseball stadium and try it, you'll be very lucky to come out alive.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:58 AM

Inobu,

I have nothing to learn from a person who dedicates himself to being a lying PR flak for a vicious child beater.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Beccy
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM

Guest- Please identify yourself so that we may either curse you or agree with you, each in our own way...

And what do you mean about the PR lackey?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:10 AM

Focusing on the killing itself is looking in the wrong direction.The question isn't, "W.why did the driver run her down, was it intentional, carelessness, or a pure accident?" Asking that is surely to look in the wrong direction.

Rachel knew she was putting herself at risk, and so do the otherpeace activists. The driver knew there was a real possibility of his killing someone, either running them down, or crushed in a falling buildinmg, like that pregnant woman I mentioned who was killed a few days ago.

The question is, why did Rachel feel it necessary to risk her life to stop what is happening in Gaza, and why did the driver feel it necessary to risk killing innocent people like that?

And for the answer to the first question, I suggest people read those emails she sent home.

Getting angry at the driver is a waste of energy. The blame for his actions lies with the people who gave him his orders, and the people who gave them their orders. Yes, and the people on the other side who helped put those people into power, by becoming trapped in a disastrous cycle of atrocity and counter-atrocity.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM

Beccy,

Remember the woman who was caught on video tape last year beating her helpless litle girl? Inobu is her PR flak. Search the Mudcat archives, you'll see how much credibility he has a truth teller.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM

Where are the "human shields" in The Sudan to stand between the slavers and their prey? Where are the protesters marching to protest the actions of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe?
You don't know do you.
Just like no one acted as a "human shield" for the women who were murdered by the Taliban. Just like no one protests the treatment of the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey whose right to a country of their own is atleast as strong as the Palestinian Arabs.
I could say that it's because the Israeli-Palestinian Arab conflict is higher profile and therefore cooler to protest.
But I won't say that. I'll just assume that people aren't aware of what's going on in the rest of the world.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM

McGrath-the information I've seen is that the protestor's normal method was to kneel, similarly to the Muslim position for prayer. The paper also reported that she was kneeling in this fashion at the time. I agree that the real focus should be on ending the violence on both sides, but I have no idea how to do it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:07 AM

Make Jerusalem an international city under governance of the Sec Gen of the UN and move the UN there. Tear down the settlements on the West Bank or remove their IDF protection. Move out of the Occupied Territories (or divide them) and build two ten-foot high walls 50 yards apart down the border. The IDF on one side and the Palestinian police on the other and ANYONE caught trying to sneak across gets shot. Put the border crossings under the control of UN forces and tell both sides that if there is any trouble, they'll get their butts kicked back to last Tuesday and DO it a few times. The Israelis have their country, the Palestinian Arabs have their country and the killing stops.
Of course, no politician in his right mind on either side would ever dare suggest it. They could lose their job.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:24 AM

Perhaps the bulldozer driver was Moshe Nissim. Here's an interview with him that was originially published in the Israeli newspaper, Yediot Aharonot:

Moshe Nissim


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM

There are some good ideas there, troll. I especially think it would be helplful to the whole world to move the U.N. there.

What happened to this young lady is tragic. As a few others have pointed out, however, she must have known the risk she was taking. If blame must be assigned, I think it must be assigned to her. People must take personal responsibility for their actions. She was attempting to do something heads of state have not been able to accomplish ...stop the armed conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. She should have known better. I don't know, under those circumstances whether her action should be described as courageous or foolish. I rather think it was the latter, however.

I feel so sad for her family and friends. I feel sad,too, for those protestors who will follow in her footsteps, convinced that their deaths will stop the conflict.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM

I could say that it's because the Israeli-Palestinian Arab conflict is higher profile and therefore cooler to protest.

Or perhaps it's because the US gives Israel billions of dollars every year to help them commit attrocities. It's our tax dollars that pay for this. We have a responsibility to speak up.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM

You mess with the bull you might just get the horn - too bad about the kid. I admire her willingness to go and do what she did though. But she knew the risks.

And yep them danged Israelis - atrocities up the bazoo - they go out and hire people to blow themselves up on buses and in school yards. What a crock of shit. You folks really think that America is the only bad guy out there? Get a life -


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:54 PM

"People must take personal responsibility for their actions".

I'm sure that Rachel took responsibility for her actions. That is the essence of non-violence. So must the driver, and the people who gave the driver their orders amd the people who justify the collective punishments, and the bulldozing of homes and seem to shrug off the deaths of civilians, women, children in the Palestinian ghetto.

If the Palestinians in their desperation could follow in the footsteps of Rachel and turn to a non-violent struggle that would not be something to be sad about. Perhaps as many would be killed as have died in misguided suicide bomb attacks, but their deaths would bring peace nearer, and break the cycle of atrocity and counter atrocity.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST,Guest, Push Me Pull You
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM

She reminds me of the character in "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie" who went over to defend the brave men fighting in the Spanish American War and was killed on the wrong side.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:37 PM

Troll-I agree on the settlements, and on the withdrawal from the occupied territories. I can't say the same for Jerusalem. Not only does it deny the obviously superior Israeli claim to the holy sites on the Temple Mount (we were there first, and our book says so, and theirs doesn't, nyah nyah nyah), but it would turn the city into the focus of all of the strife that occurs in the entire region, as it would have to be accessible to both Arabs and Israelis. Further, the UN couldn't possibly enforce such a division, especially against the IDF.


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