BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!

Subject: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:04 AM

Just in case there was any doubt as to who is likely to profit from this war, Reuters had the courage to run a story entitled, War could be big business for Halliburton. Halliburton, of course, is the company that was headed by Dick Cheney. Who, for our non-American correspondents, is the Vice President of the United States. All perfectly legal, I'm sure, but I think it stinks.

You won't find anything like that on CNN, of course. Although even that "news" service did report, back in July 2002 about all the shaky and unethical-but-not-quite-illegal business deals engineered by Bush, Cheney, and the other corporate CEO's who fill the upper echelons of our current government. Seemed like things were about to hit the fan back then...until somebody in the White House had the bright idea to start making noise about Weapons of Mass Distraction. And we sure got distracted, didn't we?

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:46 AM

Mark: you want to know who is REALLY going to profit from this war? Yes? The Iraqu people.

Aloha from Arizona,
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:44 AM

You know, Doug, somehow I just KNEW you were going to say that. Would that include the civilians in Baghdad who were and will be killed by Shock and Awe? I know, I know, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, and you can't have a war without killing a bunch of innocent civilians. Iraqi freedom? Don't make me laugh.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:52 AM

Halliburton's not the only one, Mark. Take a look at this: clickety.

Thanks for the links.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:13 AM

Absolutely, kat. I appreciated this part:

As a first step toward Iraqi prosperity, the president's ambitious postwar plan earmarks $100 million to ensure that Iraq's 25,000 schools have all the supplies and support necessary to "function at a standard level of quality" -- including books and supplies for 4.1 million Iraqi schoolchildren.

I'm sure those schools in Oregon that are being forced to shut down a month early due to inadequate funding, or the low-income students in California who are suing the state in a desperate effort to obtain adequate textbooks and qualified teachers of their own, would love to see the same kind of "tangible evidence" of President Bush's support.

Here in Hawaii, and I'm sure it's the same in any other state, President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" education program is seen as a cruel joke by school administrators and teachers. The law mandates a crushing amount of paperwork by school personnel, fixates on standardized tests as the only measure of educational "quality," and provides no funding to allow schools to comply with its unrealistic and onerous requirements. But it sure made a good sound bite, didn't it?

See, as long as you believe that everything the President and his associates say is the truth, you can pretend that everything is fine, and you don't have to think about anything at all. Unless it happens to be your kid whose school is closing, or your retirement savings that were wiped out by illegal corporate shenanigans, or your nephew who is getting blown up in Iraq, or your friends who don't care that their nice house in Baghdad is now a pile of rocks, because they're dead.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: BlueJay
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:53 AM

Doug R- It's great to cheer the troops and all, but you are living in a fantasy of your own making. Let me explain in a way bankers would understand: the United States is a very poor credit risk.

We are failing to keep our "rebuilding" commitments to Afghanistan. Even Turkey wants it's bribe money to let us use Turkey as a staging ground UP FRONT, not promises of future help. Yet the Bush administration promises we can rebuild Iraq.

Wake up, Doug. We're barely able to keep our own infrastructure afloat. Our highways are shit and our airlines are failing. For most American families, access to health insurance costs as much as housing. Yet Bush is promising to rebuild the Iraqi health care system. I don't think anyone believes it. Bush is full of promises, but if he delivers, there will be hell to pay. As an American I think my family's health care should take priority over Iraq's.

At the same time, Bush is fanatical about big tax breaks which will throw our country deeper into debt, and will in truth benefit a very few.

But Doug, you know what is the saddest thing of all? While all you true-blooded conservatives are chanting "Support our Troops", the fact is that when these injured veterans return to the United States, the support will have disappeared. They will either be thrown into the same health care morass as the rest of us, (the preferred Republican route), or they will be subjected to trying to get help from the Veterans Administration, which is currently struggling to meet the needs of WWII vets. Either way, these kids are fucked.

I think I'm paraphrasing someone when I say, "A society can be judged by the way it treats it's veterans". In our case, it's pretty poor. But at least after Vietnam, things were handled fairly promptly, as far as I know. I have a friend whose right leg was blown off by a land mine, and he had a prosthetic limb within a few months after coming home, at no cost to him.

The first gulf war vets didn't fare as well. Our "support the troops" government denies benefits for the "Gulf War Syndrome", though many of our troops are ill after having fought in that war. I wonder what those guys think of all the "support our troops" bullshit.

So Doug, I'll be watching to see how your good friend Bush handles our returning veterans. My guess is that few of our veterans will be doing as well as Halliburton once the war on Iraq is over.

I'll be watching to see how Bush handles our veterans, some of whom are already returning with injuries. I am not optimistic. Thanks, BlueJay.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:15 AM

Tell me Bluejay, just what did the Clinton Administration, who had eight years in the White House, do for the Vets. Wasn't it on Clintonswatch that the Gulf War Syndrome surfaced? Where was the great outpouring of aid for them from the Democratic Administration?
You act like Bush has been in charge since '91.
As for Haliburton getting the contract, there are only three or four companies in the world who are capable of an undertaking of this magnitude. That Haliburton has the contract IS a little cheesy, but it is legal and they are one of the few choices available. Another is Bechtel.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:48 AM

Both of those companies were on the "closed" bid list mentioned in the article for which I proved a link Troll. Big surprise there. Also, no non-American companies have been asked to bid.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:51 AM

Hey, keep the money at home,kat. In truth, I don't know if there are any foreign companies that could handle the job. Japan might have one. I don't know.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM

Oh sure, Troll, as if Hallibruton, Bechtel, etc. are not multi-national? *bg*

katturningintoanoldcynic

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM

katlaughing,

Bobert tried to fly this kite in another thread and it didn't go.

If it is an American Aid Package that is going to assist in Iraq after the war, there is a very simple reason for there being no non-American companies on the bid list - The money given through American aid must be spent in America, its one of the rules dating back to Marshall Plan days.

The courageous article that Mark provided the link for has no contracts awarded at this stage - Halliburton did not put out oilfield fires in Kuwait after the end of the last Gulf War - Dresser did - Halliburton merged with Dresser about seven years ago. The KBR referred to in the article is Kellog Brown & Root, the Kellog part used to be a Dresser consultant engineering company specialising in large oilfield projects, while Brown & Root is Halliburton's main construction division. Even the Analyst quoted in the article sees it as making sense, which it does technically and commercially, to anyone who has the vaguest idea of the scope of work to be undertaken. To get Iraq's oilfields back to anything like pre-1991 production levels will take an investment of some $7 billion and at least three years work.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:08 PM

Teribus, please provide some cites for what you purport. From what I've read and cited, the rebuilding of nations has always come under aegis of the UN and therefore several countries were invited to bid for the work needed to be done afterwards. Shrub et al have used an "urgency" excuse to make this an exclusive Americna rebuiliding and limited the bidding to companies which 1) donated millions to GOP campaigns 2) have strong ties with Cheney and the Shrub family. They are doing this all with our tax dollars and I for one resent the hell out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:38 PM

Well,kat, I hate to ruin your day but the news just came out that Haliburton is withdrawing from the contract. A couple of pension plans that are major stockholders have been putting pressure on them to get out of doing any business with countries who sponsor terrorists i.e. Iraq. So they have. Before anyone erupts with glee that the proteses are working, this goes back to last fall when Haliburton opened an office in Dubai to set up operations in Iraq should it become feasible.
I did learn that when Cheney was veep at Haliburton, he was continually pressuring Washington to convince the UN to lift the sanctions on Iraq as they were costing American businesses a lot of money in lost business.
'magine that!

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:43 PM

Halliburton. From Erle P. Halliburton, Oklahoma oil guy in the 1920s. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:44 PM

Good, I am glad they have withdrawn. Though, skeptic that I've become, I find it hard to believe they won't find someway to reap some profits one way or another.

Thanks, Troll,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:11 PM

No way to win troll. Good try though. Hard to pry open closed minds you know, and impossible for them to process facts. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:13 PM

Talking about yourself, again, I see, Doug...sad, really sad

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Felipa
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:13 PM

see also earlier thread Cheney Payback: Halliburton licks chops

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:13 PM

Speaking of closed minds. . . .

Just because you break a lot of eggs, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to end up with an omelet.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:47 AM

On the other hand, if you don't break any eggs, you guarantee that there will be no omlet.

troll****whatever that means*****

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:53 AM

Wow Don! That's damn brilliant! Mind if I use it sometime? *G*

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 09:49 AM

What do you call an electricians breakfast?













An ohmlet

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:41 PM

Well, Troll, it seems it only lasted for a day. CNN just announced that Halliburton was awarded the contract for putting out the oil fires in Iraq AND rebuilding the oil infrustructure after the war. No reports on how much the contract is for. So much for withdrawing from the bidding.

I am glad to hear, though, that the Senate said no to bush's tax cuts AND war budget without some reduction!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:00 PM

Well, Teribus still thinks that only big cporporations can perform quality work. All they are gonna do is subcontract out the bulk of the work, while marking it up to the taxpayers. Smal;ler companies will end up doing the work and we get bilked.

BTW, would anyone like to venture a quess just how much money Dick Cheney recieved last year from Halliburton, while sitting as the Vice President of a country that has just limited competion to, ahhh, Halliburton, Bechtel and a couple other hand picked big Republican donors?

Give up?

Well, Dich Cheney got $1,100,000!

Yeah, I've said it before and I'll say it again. These guys are crooks and those of you who continue to defend them a a bunch of brainwashed, partisan hypocrits or major stockholders of one of the corporations that has been hand picked!

I certainly hope that these folks aren't gonna use this corrupt model for stting up their little democratic (ha) in Iraq or Iraq is doomed to fail.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:41 AM

Bobert, in saying above -

"Well, Teribus still thinks that only big corporations can perform quality work."

You gravely misrepresent what I said.

As for:

"All they are gonna do is subcontract out the bulk of the work, while marking it up to the taxpayers. Smaller companies will end up doing the work and we get bilked."

katlaughing's post mentioned what the broad-brush scope of work is:

"CNN just announced that Halliburton was awarded the contract for putting out the oil fires in Iraq AND rebuilding the oil infrustructure after the war."

Now, Bobert what parts of that would they subcontract out?

1. Putting out oil fires? - No they don't need to. Dresser (now part of Halliburton) was involved in this in 1991. So by using this in-house expertise and equipment you reduce costs.

2. Rebuilding the oil infrastructure after the war. Kellog Brown & Root successfully compete for such work world-wide. They are extremely good at it.

Such a contract would be an EPCI/EPIC. The Halliburton Group is very large and contains within that corporate structure everything that is required to get the work done. One of the major factors will be the time taken to complete the work, and here Halliburton have a distinct advantage.

Now EPCI/EPIC - Halliburton Advantages:

The "E" part is engineering -
Halliburton's resources and capabilities in this area are vast - probably the biggest in the world. I take it that the smaller companies you would prefer to deal with are in business, they do have ongoing work and projected future commitments. What happens to those Bobert? Are they just cancelled, or put on hold until the work in Iraq is done. For highly specialised parts do they scramble about searching for other companies that can provide those services - if so they will end up knocking at Halliburton's door.

The "P" part is procurement -
Halliburton have customers all over the world within this sector, Halliburton companies produce items of equipment for those customers that, purely by their nature, are long lead time items. Time can be reduced by looking into rescheduling deliveries to existing customers to make items required in Iraq available rapidly. Any other contractor (you know the fifteen smaller companies you talked about in that other thread) they would have to wait.

The "I" part is Installation -
Halliburton work in the area, they have the equipment and expertise available on the door-step. This reduces mobilisation costs which is a major element of construction cost.

The "C" part is Commissioning -
For oil field work this is highly specialised, Halliburton again have the expertise and equipment required in-house.

Their biggest advantage is in their ability to manage the work - they do on a world-wide basis, on massive projects for some very large companies - and they perform well.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:24 AM

katlaughing,

You asked me to provide some sites to support the contention that US aid must be spent in the US - go to Google and call up USAID. I have also pasted in part of an article on the likely subjects to be discussed by George Bush and Tony Blair today at Camp David. The BBC mention USAID and the fact that existing rules would be changed if Iraqi oil revenues (not US money) are used to fund the work.

From BBC:

"Post-war contracts

One issue which has already provoked tensions between Britain and the United States is the handing out of contracts to American companies for the initial rebuilding phase.

This is being handled by the US Agency for International Development.

Naturally it turns to American contractors to give contracts paid for with American money.

The British company P&O has just lost out on a contract to run the port of Umm Qasr to an American firm.

After pressure from London, the US government has now said that the rules are being chnaged and that the British will be included in future bidding.for contracts.

Who will pay in the longer term is not so clear.

The US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, said: "We're going to use the assets of the people of Iraq, especially their oil assets, to benefit their people."

That implies that future contracts will be paid for out of oil revenues.

And the British will expect some of the action in peace since they have taken their share of the action in war."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 08:01 AM

Well, danged, Teribus. Think I'll go out and buy some stock right now. Sound's as American as a Mom-n-Pop-Apple-Pie-Store.

Yeah right!????

Your little corporate synopsos leaves a lot to be desired. Lots of claims but not much meat. Halliburton has the resources. Hallibuton has customers all over the world. Halliburton has expertise.

Well, those generalized statements in this world economy, don't put Halliburton or Bechtel in any unique, untouchable situation. It just describes lots of companies.

At the end of the the last war I split time between running my own comany and helping my brother with his procurement company, Tradeteck, Inc. Hey, we won our fair share of contracts because we put together packages that were competitive. I learned during that year that there are so many companies doing and making so many things. I also learned that pricing is a very strange business in itself. We underbid Ford Motor Company's proposal to sell all whell drive road tractors and they were the same exact tractors that we bought thru a source a Ford! See, Ford thought they had a *lock* on the deal and never even knew that we had offered a tender. We didn't make as much as Ford would have but we still netted a half a million dollars on that deal! That's what I mean by competion.

I think that you overestimate the percentage of these contracts that would be performed by folks who today bring home a pay check from Halliburton, T.

Therre is much to be done. Most of it constrution. Don't think that there aren't a lot of mid sized construction companies that wouldn't love to have a shot at competing for roads, hospiatls, schools, office buldings, electic plants, water and sewage plants. This stuff ain't rocket science.

And my arguement that many of these folks will end up doing the work anyway will be borne out in the post war. Just stay tuned and keep an eye onyour tax dollar at work.

Lastly, had Bill Clinton done this, the Repubs would have had Ken Starr sniffin' around Halliburton and Bechtel and we both know that top be true...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:05 AM

Hi there Bobert,

"There is much to be done. Most of it constrution. Don't think that there aren't a lot of mid sized construction companies that wouldn't love to have a shot at competing for roads, hospiatls, schools, office buldings, electic plants, water and sewage plants. This stuff ain't rocket science."

It might not be rocket science Bobert but its not "putting out the oil fires in Iraq AND rebuilding the oil infrustructure after the war." either - that's the contract Halliburton has been awarded.

As for the example regarding the all wheel drive road tractors, how competitive would you have been (compared to Ford) if you and your brother had to design the tractor first, prove it's compliance to specification, source components, find and tool up a facility to manufacture and assemble it, then finally test and deliver them.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:35 PM

Off the subject of Halliburton, but I want to comment on the widely held view amongst some people, including DougR, that we are freeing the Iraqi's. If that's so, why don't the Iraqi's seem more grateful? Did you see the footage today- at two different sites of disbursement- where 'humanitarian' aid is being distributed to chanting, pushing throngs in great need of food and water packages? The reporter was shocked and awed, you might say, when it developed that they were not extolling the virtues of the USA's magnanimity towards them- instead they were reiterating that they support Saddam to the death and What is the USA doing there??

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:42 PM

T:

You missed the point entirely! The point is that Ford thought it had an "exclusive", much like Halliburton, and so figured hey, why not gouge. Just as Halliburton will do.

Now if you can't see the obvious *apparent* good-0l-boy-wink-wink-odor of this deal than you, my friend, have no nose.

And you won't admit it but if Bill Clinton was collecting $1.1M a year from Halliburton and gave a contract to, guess who? Yeah, see what I mean? No? Then I certainly wouldn't have any trouble finding you in a room full of people. I'd just look for a person with no nose and no eyes!

Come on, do you really believe this crap you write?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:32 PM

Bobert, what is your source for the Haliburton pay-off to Cheney?
Ebbie, can't you just see the Iraqi's lining up for humanitarian aid and praising the US and then going back to their homes, knowing that the Fedayeen Saddam may have heard them? They remember what happened last time when the US encouraged them to rise up and then didn't support them.
Once burned, twice cautious.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:42 PM

BTW, Bobert. If you and your brother netted 1/2 mil from your tractor deal, lets hear no more griping about how poor you are and how much you have to pay for insurance. 1/4 mil, even after taxes is a tidy chunk of change and probably represents 4 or 5 years salary for some of us.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: DougR
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:42 AM

Ok. Now we know. Bobert is a CAPITALIST! He's been running down the likes of Halliburton because he WANTS THE CONTRACTS FOR HIMSELF!

Come on Bobert, my friend, why didn't you tell me you wanted a contract. Heck, I have some Republican friends that, given the word, might send some business your way. Hey, it's just business, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:34 AM

Bobert,

You didn't answer my question - no surprise there - you never do

Instead, what is delivered by way of a response?

Subjective opinion on a subject on which you illustrate, comprehensively, your own complete and utter ignorance of in terms of scale and technical requirement.

OK, if not Halliburton, who would you give the contract to Bobert?

By the way Bobert you do not become the biggest and best in the world by relying on any "good-0l-boy-wink-wink-network", apparent, or otherwise, because there comes a point where you have to deliver - at that point competence and capability enter the equation. On those Halliburton actually happens to be extremely good. And before you make any further reference to "the crap that I write" - educate yourself, take a good look at their track record Bobert.

Specifically, on the contract that Halliburton has been awarded, I do know what I am talking about - you, Bobert do not, and you make that perfectly obvious to anyone associated with the oil and gas industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:56 AM

From the official website of the White House, www.whitehouse.gov:

The Cheney 2002 tax return (emphasis mine)

Included in the wage and salary income reported on the tax return is the Vice President's $174,475 government salary and $1,598,977 in bonus or deferred compensation earned by Mr. Cheney from Halliburton Company where Mr. Cheney served as chief executive officer until he resigned on August 16, 2000. As previously reported in Halliburton's 2001 proxy statement, in the Vice President's filings with the Office of Government Ethics, and in the press release accompanying the Cheneys 2000 tax return, in January 2001 Mr. Cheney received from Halliburton a cash bonus of $1,451,398 based on calendar year 2000 results. An additional $1,184,597 in income resulted from the exercise of stock options and receipt of deferred compensation in January, 2001 as Mr. Cheney disposed of holdings and terminated relationships with companies on whose boards of directors he had served before becoming Vice President.

Halliburton is the company which built up the Iraqi oilfields after the last gulf war. Reminds me of a highway in CT which used to be worked on during the day, then, everyone swore, the work was undone each night, to make more work. There was talk of it being mafia based. I don't know about that, but they were working on it between Springfield, MA and Hartford, CT when we moved out there in 1983 and were still working on it when we left in 1993.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 03:59 AM

katlaughing,

So payments made to Mr. Cheney from Halliburton have all been declared to extent and have been fully explained. They all relate to work undertaken by Mr. Cheney while CEO of the Company and in compensation for him having to relinquish both, his position within that company, and his stock in what is a very profitable company, in order that he could take up public office.

Going by the dates, all payments stated pre-date the events that led to the current situation in Iraq. But most important of all, it has been presented in a very transparent manner.

Bobert should note that Saddam Hussein selected Halliburton to build up the Iraqi oilfields after the 1991 Gulf War. Those currently in charge of USAID appear to have selected the same contractor. The reasons for both, Bobert, is because the company is damn good at what it does.

I take it that Halliburton were not building the highway referred to, would you please clarify that point for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:00 AM

Yo troll;

If I give you the resource to prove that Cheney is getting $1.1M a year from Halliburton will you admit that this deal stinks?

As for the $500,000 we made on the tractors, plus the $750,000 we made on other stuff, we ended up spending every bit of it once the Kuwaiti's were back on their soil. Yeah, my brother, ever the gambler, tried to put together a deal where by the Kuwaiti's were going to buy the Sequoia and set up a fund for its upkeep and present it to the American people as a token of appreciation but the Kuwait's pulled out of the deal at the last minute. Plus we were chasing other tenders. In the end, between our expenses here and in Kuwait, the $1.3M just evaporated. I never got one dime from Tradeteck and my poor brother lost evrything he owned, including his home.

Those are the sad facts of the deal. All it did for me was tie up a lot of my time and energy and hurt my small business.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM

Troll asked for verification that Cheney received monies from Halliburton. For the two tax periods he has been VP, he has recieved monies as noted above. What he declares for the past year remains to be seen. The fact is, that no matter what he calls it, he is receiving monies from Halliburton.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bagpuss
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:11 AM

The fact that you declare payments and links does not prove that you are not acting improperly and with self interest as a motive. It just means that it is easier for the people to see when this is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:57 AM

Hang on Bagpuss,

"The fact that you declare payments and links does not prove that you are not acting improperly and with self interest as a motive."

Stikes me as being a damn sight more likely an indication that you are behaving openly and honestly than not, particularly as the payments were passed before the Office of Government Ethics as stated in katlaughing's post.


The Cheney 2002 tax return:

Government Salary $174,475 + DEFERRED COMPENSATION $1,598,977 from a post he relinquished on 16th August, 2000.

The Cheney 2000 tax return:

From Halliburton a cash bonus of $1,451,398 based on calendar year 2000 results.

That does not strike me as being in anyway untoward, considering he was CEO of one of the largest service companies in the oil and gas industry.

Plus an additional $1,184,597 in income resulted from the exercise of stock options and receipt of deferred compensation in January, 2001 as Mr. Cheney disposed of holdings and terminated relationships with companies on whose boards of directors he had served before becoming Vice President.

Again, seems reasonable, I don't know what the man's salary was a Halliburton. I would imagine it was a great deal more than the $174,475 he gets as Vice-President. In order to take up public office he has to resign from his post and dispose of his stock in the company - he deserves to be compensated.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:22 PM

And, Halliburton deserves all of the Iraqi rebuild contracts just like the last gulf war, eh? Looks too much like you scratch mine, I'll scratch yours.

I would suspect if Blair and the rest of the UN have their way about it, though, we may actually see some of the work awarded to companies of other countries. One can hope. I for one don't feel like having only US tax dollars used to clean up the mess made by an unneccesary war.

kat

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM

katlaughing,

You introduced the fact that Halliburton did the work before - In a way that actually strengthens the case for awarding them the work now.

Funny thing is, you hear figures thrown about like the ones mentioned above and the initial reaction is amazement. But they are not - relatively speaking - Chairman of BP £3,000,000 bonus ($4,500,000); transfer fees for footballers; royalties paid to dead performers (Elvis Presleys earnings are around the $6,000,000 a year)

As someone came out with down the pub the other night:

"World's gone mad, the world's best rapper is a white guy, the world's best golfer is a black guy, the French are accusing the Americans of arrogance, and the Germans are refusing to go to war."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:48 PM

The point I amde early on, Teribus, was that there was NO open bidding for the clean-up contracts. Also, that other countries need to be involved, as well as foreign companies which may have the same capability. I am an oil-field brat and sold mobile telephones, pre-cell phone days, to Halliburton and all of the rest, so I know what they are capable of...I also know, from being in the same state as Cheney most of my adult life, so far, that the good old boy network nearly destroyed anyone who wasn't "with them" in Wyoming and I do not trust the man, nor what he and the company might cook-up to line their pockets further, his government position be damned.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 02:50 AM

Bobert, others provided the data I requested of you. Sorry to hear that your brother lost all the money> The end of the story sure doesn't sound like the beginning. Sounds to me like you should stick with what you know.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:18 AM

kat,

As an "oil-field brat" you may be aware of how much a tender costs to put together. You must also realise that, world-wide, the oil & gas industry is, to all intent and purpose, very much an "American Game", in terms of technology and equipment (practically all patents relating to drilling and wellhead technology are American).

In Europe we have a thing called the "Achilles System". Under EU rules before you go out to ask for bids for any work you have to go into this system and get a list of all companies that are listed as being capable of doing the work. You then have to invite all of them if they wish to pre-qualify to go on the tender list. On the basis of the replies you then have to send them pre-qualification documents, when these are returned they have to read and evaluated. Those who pre-qualify must then be asked if they wish to proceed, those that do get sent the "Invitation to Tender" packages. While the tenders are being prepared there will be tender clarifications to be addressed by company and contractor. When these are returned they all have to be evaluated technically and commercially. From this evaluation a short-list of tenders will be selected (can be anything from three to six contractors). Those tenders are then gone into in great detail and factors considered such as the projected work-load of those contractors, do their committments work to their advantage, or disadvantage. The short-list is reduced to two companies for the final round and the contract is then awarded.

That system, although it is extremely fair, is extremely costly to both client and contractor. What was noticed very early on was that you could start with 33 companies stating their interest in pre-qualifying, you always seemed to end up with the same six companies at the end - that translates to around 80% wasted time, money and effort on the part of the client and 27 potential contractors.

In order to overcome this problem the Operators (oil companies) entered into long term frame agreements with contractors to provide clearly defined services. This meant that you go through the process detailed above once every five years. Any work that comes up in that period you immediately go to your Frame Agreement Contractors and you deal with three bids - much more cost effective for both Operator and Contractor, far better utilisation of resources, a great deal better in terms of advancement of technology, therefore far better for the industry as a whole.

There are two important things to be realised and accepted by parties entering into any contract:

1. By it's nature, it is an agreement entered into by reasonable people.

2. The contractor must make a profit - because if he doesn't he tries to recoup his losses by cutting corners, you as client do not get the job you wanted and you end up paying in the long run to get things put right - rectification work always costs double what it would have cost had it been done right in the first place. If as an Operator you enter with the attitude to squeeze your contractor till the pips squeak - all you will succeed in doing is shafting yourself and driving a contractor out of business - and that is not in your interest.

For the oil-field scope of work required to be undertaken in Iraq USAID (restraint on where American money can be spent apart) has gone to what would have ended up as the short-list in any case.

In no way am I saying they are Saints - but they are damn good at what they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:59 AM

troll:

Thanks for the advice. Where were you when I needed it? Fortunately, I didn't have any actuak money in Tradetech, just time, and I guess the experience was probably worth it. If we could have kept the Kuwaiti's in D.C. I think we could have hung in there and made some money. Once they were back there in Kuwait, it became too expensive to compete with the big dogs.

One thing I did learn, however, which is relevent to the Halliburton discussion, is that it take a lot of grease to make any deal with Kuwaitis, if you know what I mean. 10 grand here and 20 grand there! That's the only way you're gonna get a deal done. They call it comissions but the strange thing is that you have to pay it just to get in the game and once you do there is no assurance that you're going to get the deal. Only that it now will be considered. Purdy currupt little system.

And lastly, I learned that while the Kuwaitis are charming and will party with you and feed you and take you out on their boats (which they all have) when it comes to business, integrity is no where to be found. These folks have been traders so long that it is honorable, even between family members, to cheat and lie. Now, I'm sure that someone is going to call me on this one, but that is my observation from my dealing with these people. Party with 'em, but don't do any business with them!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:02 AM

Teribus, thank you for your explanation. I would feel a lot better if we had such a system in place here in the US. As it is it just seems ridiculous and corrupt. Yes, Halliburton is damn good at what they do, but it still should have gone out for bid.:-)

Thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM

No problem, kat, enjoy your week-end.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:50 AM

Bobert, I subscribe to a publication called Aramco World. It's put out by Saudi Aramco and is generally apolitical. I have seen the same thing said in at least one article there, so it is probably endemic in the Arab world.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:24 PM

Can someone explain to me why Iraq cannot rebuild their own country? I am sincere when I ask this. It seems to me they did just fine without us before the war, why is it any US contractor must be involved? Is it out of guilt or greed or what, that we do this?
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM

I may be wrong, RR, but last I knew, we and the other countries which took part in the lasy gulf war, rebuilt all of the oilfields this last time. Not sure about the rest of it, though, probably not since we withdrew without getting saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM

Forgot to post this:

Supposedly now the reason only certain US firms are being allowed to win contracts to rebuild Iraq is because only those certain ones have high enough security clearance to read the top secret docs. telling them info on what will need to be done!

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:22 PM

Well danged! Just when T-Bird convinced me that Halliburton was the only corportaion capable of putting out oil fires, public pressure forces Bush and Cheney to open up the bidding process. Semms that ol' Bobert wasn't the only one smelling some stinky corruption and so Halliburton is *out*!

Now, ol' Bobert is so scared that no one will be able to put out those fires and they will burn until the smoke engulfs the earth and people will be running thuough the streets of every major city screaming and we will all die and, and...

Danged, I'm gonna go get under the bed. The smoke won't find me there!

Smokey

p.s. Nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan! Your team lost one...

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:25 PM

Excuse me. The "nan, naning" was my friend, T!

(cough, cough...)

Bobert

(You are purdy juvinile at times, Bobert)

p.s. Sorry, T.........

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:27 PM

Bobert you are weird! Gotta love ya.
You know Kat, I just don't think that answers my question. I can understand what your saying, but obviously, the people of Iraq are there seeing what will need to be done also. Right? I will have to ponder this a bit. Thanks.
Speaking of the smoke and pollution this war has caused, it's not only the oil wells putting tons of smoke and chemicals in the air but also all those burning buildings.
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:42 PM

There's nothing wierd about me, RR, and if you don't belive me, you can PM my cats and they'll vouch fir me. Well, maybe not the outdoor cat, but that cat is truely wierd.

But wierd or not, war is not good for people, our planet, our air, our envirnment or our spirit. And that is indisputable!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 03:21 AM

Well Bobert, I PMed your cat and all I got out of her was,"meow" Is that some kind of code?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 11:14 AM

R.R., yes it is code but you are not cleared for it. Why are you asking questions about a code that you KNOW you have no clearance for?
And why are you so interested in Iraqi finances? Hmmmm.
Anyhoo, rebuilding takes money and it's going to take a while to get the finances of Iraq sorted out, since it appears that Saddam and/or his sons "own" much of the countries assets. The Iraqi people can't wait that long to get their lives back on a more normal footing so someone else needs to step in right away and begin rebuilding damaged infrastructure.(isn't that a great word?)
It is my understanding that USAID money can ONLY go to US companies. I am happy that the Govt. has opened up the bidding. That's a good sign, in my estimation.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:53 AM

Well Bobert,

Halliburton have been awarded the contract for extinguishing the oil-field fires and to rebuild Iraq's oil-field infrastructure.

Stevedoring US have been awarded the contract to rebuilt and improve the deep-water port of Umm Quasr.

The contract bidding that Halliburton have dropped out of is for a $600 million contract for capital civil reconstruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:00 AM

troll:

Man, don't even ask me about my dealings with the Saudis. Whew, those folks can work you, too. There is no done deal! Once you agree to a price, then they start chopping from there. I won't deal with any of them any more, not will most of the folks I know. Horror stories. I just can't get it into my head that lieing and cheating are *honorable* qualities in business dealings.

(Well danged, Bobert, how about Halliburton and Bechtel and Lookheed Martin and, and...)

Oh, nevermind. I'll go peddle my papers now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 08:54 PM

Here's today's David Horsey cartoon.

Just in case we were being distracted from this topic by current events.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Troll
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 09:04 PM

Slightly biased, but DAMN! it's funny.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 10:48 PM

I have never been able to figure out a country that does not -- for any ideological reason -- take care of its own people. Although I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, I do think that a country in which the poor have enough to eat, health care, welfare as needed (yes, that takes definition) ends up with a better-fed, healthier, less angry and therefore less violent population.

A leader like Bush (or Premier Gordon Campbell in British Columbia, Canada) can end up with the poor being ill, isolated and angry.

Sure, I recognize these statements are simplistic. But what leader lets his country's infrastructure, schools, economy, employment rate -- and therefore its people -- go all to hell while spending billions on war?

I just don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Frankham
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM

The idea behind US presidential power is often to retain the power at all costs. The Commander-in-Chief of the armed services is a very powerful person and has been so for decades if not historically centuries.

Re: Halliburton, I don't think anyone says that the CEOs are doing a bad job for the corporation. That's not the issue. The question is this, who stands to gain financially for the reconstruction of Iraq?
Do you honestly think it will be the Iraqi people? Or European contracts?

BTW, what ever happened to the reconstruction of Afghanistan?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 08:39 PM

GUEST, pdc:

Yeah, they may be simplistic questions but thay are very relevant questions.

I agree. There is no reason what so ever that the world's most wealthy nation in the history of mankind cannot provide the bare nesessities to its people.

Unfortunately, it comes down to a buch of folks who happened to be lucky enough to be born into the ruling class who feel terribly threatened by the working class and lower class that they expend much of their time, energy and resources keeping the working and poor classes down. They have a complete menu of choices from which to choose; Divide and counquer, racism, war, laboe busting, money, money and money to buy whatever, whomever they need to perpetuate the cycle. They are all well trained in as they grow up in their prep schjools and fraternities (with the secret handshakes...) and the like so it is second nature when it's their turn to play Boss Hog....

Meanwhile, the working class work harder and longer (al la, the horses in "Animal Farm") to get by and end up dropping dead on Boss Hog's assemble line.........

And now Boss Hog has his little immoral, anti-human, anti-earth war going on being fought and paid for by the working class and is going to use that old end around ("Supoort the Troops") one more time to keep the *subject class* "divided and conquered" while slapping congratulatory backs of his or her fellow ruling class chums...

So forget any crums coming the way of the working or porr class. These folks are too busy lining their pockets...

Yeah, one day they will get it... and they'll find that they got it one day too late.....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: mg
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 09:03 PM

I don't know who should rebuild the oil fields...but some good old Yankee ingenuity might be better in the long run than unknowns...how could Iraqis deal with that plus nation building plus trying to keep down various tribal factions etc....the oil has to keep flowing and flow faster for the best interest of the country and the world. At the same time, I don't think anyone but Iraqis should get the contracts for the more mundane projects...the schools and hospitals and at least some of the roads etc...

And one of the first things they should do or we should insist on, despite the fact we are piss poor in our own country at this, is developing or renewing if they already have it, a system of vocational education that not only trains the young people but the workers who have been displaced for so many years. Start with the construction trades and the medical trades and go from there.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 04:06 AM

Bobert,

You have a very convenient outlook on life with regard to its problems - its always someone elses fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 06:51 AM

Frank,

"The question is this, who stands to gain financially for the reconstruction of Iraq?"

The list would be quite long and would include quite a large number of Iraqis and Iraqi businesses

"BTW, what ever happened to the reconstruction of Afghanistan?"

Was that supposed to be completed now? As far as I am aware that work is still in progress, financed by both the US and the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 08:29 PM

No, T-Bird, it isn't always someone else's fault. It not the working and poor folks fault that they are ruled by a very small group of rich people who make up the upper 5% of the population. That makes roughly 270,000,000 folks in the US alone who are not, ahhhh, at fault.

But you keep pitching for Boss Hog. He loves it, but he'll allow you to drop in field with a plow attached to you and he'll not bat so much as an eye lash. Guarenteed, T-ster. Not an eye lash...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: mg
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 09:25 PM

if you could let go of the deadly grip you think Boss Hog has on you and instead you are holding on to him, you might be better off and incrimentally, the world would be.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 10:24 PM

mg,

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The world won't be better off until people learn to share.........

The working class is being comanded to share.......

It's time that the rich realize from where their *wealth* was created. Labor!!! Pure and simple labor. But *not* their labor.

You. like Teribus, are apologists for greedy, corrupt people who, by in large, were born into priveldge.

As for myself, I have worked very hard all my life (6 days a week for the last 30 years), have played smart, invested wisely and hopefully will live out my life in circumstances above poverty, though no guarentee. I am at peace with where I am.

I am not at peace with so many of folks my same age are. Or the younger folks who may indeed die in poverty.

Boss Hog's system is shifting so much burden onto the working man while sneaking out the back door.

Yeah, you and Teribus are either part of the privedged few or aren;t paying attention. Any time either of you think that Boss Hog's America is anything but for Boss Hog, take a tour of any inner city, or drive thru Youngstown, Ohio, or Rochester, New York, or Des Moines, Iowa,m or, or, or....

Not trying to be a pain in the butt, but there is a reality of which you folks are not aware. It's our parents living in poverty. Our grandparents. It's 41,000,000 folks without health care. It's 6% and rising unemployment. It's deficits that our kids will end up paying.

Don't want to know about this stuff? Fine! Stick your heads in the sand... That ought to make them go away...........

In the words of Waylon Jennings, "We need a change!"

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: mg
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 11:39 PM

I know all about poverty etc. I come from very poor people. And although I was at one point prosperous, I had very serious financial reversals and doubt that I will ever recover. I think the causes of poverty are multi-dimensional and have a lot to do with overpopulation. I think they also have a lot to do with both factors outside what we can control, but some factors that we can control. Reproductive habits have changed, and not for the better as far as I can tell, over the last few decades. Bringing children into the world without fathers is something that can be changed...get two sober and drug-free parents working to support fewer children, and watch poverty dry up and disappear. I apologize for no one. Especially the Catholic Church which did a lot to keep people in poverty through overpopulation..but did a pretty good job in getting and keeping them married. I see a lot of things we can't probably change, and a lot that we can. Boss Hog just does not enter into my thinking. Guess I never watched Dukes of Hazard enough. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: DougR
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 01:12 AM

Ah ha! Bobert, you are a capitalist! I knew it deep down, but now you admit it! You "invested wisely!" That must mean you invested in "Boss Hog!" Does that make you a h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t? Some might think so! :<)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: mg
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 01:48 AM

Maybe he is Boss Hog and is in deep and twisted denial. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 07:54 AM

LOL, guys!

No, with a combination of vision, timing and the grace of God, I purchased a piece of commercial property that I had been renting for my small independent car rental company. It was either purchase it or get out. Well, I was teaching guitar to this loan officer at the local bank and they lent me the money, which I'm still paying on. But over the years the property has become somewhat valuable! Hmmmmmm?
I'm now renting a portion and it looks like in a couple years I might be able to rent it all out and retire with a modest income from it.

Now if that puts me in the ruling class, I didn't get a membership card or that 800 number that rings direct into Dick Cheney's office.

But, Doug, now that you understand my investment stategy, fir a lack of a better term, where have I invested in Boss Hog? Hey, may I have but I don't see it. I don't own no stocks in stuff. I do have a few "Savings Bonds" though. Maybe I should have gotten a card and 800 number with them. What do you think?

Boss Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna win the war? Halliburton!!
From: DougR
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 03:06 AM

What do I think?

Well, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you received a PERSONAL solicitation letter from The Republican Party inviting you to send them a donation to assure the continuance of the Bush Administration in 2008! I wouldn't be surprised were the letter to be signed, PERSONALLY, by Dick Cheney. :>)

DougR