BS: Anti-peace anthem

Subject: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:34 PM

click here

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:24 PM

Grim, baby! I like the domain name!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:35 PM

Stop, hey, what's that sound ...

Oh, it's poor ole John rollin over in his grave

Thanks kat.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Beccy
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

There are no anti-peace anthems because most of the people who support this war in Iraq still hope for peace and see this war as a horrible necessity, not something to be glorified.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:22 PM

Such naivete is astounding.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:27 PM

Hey.....Anytime I want an anti-peace anthem I just put on some Lee Greenwood.....Makes me wanna' go out an' kill!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Beccy
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:30 PM

Kat- Are you suggesting that I am naive because I think that people who support the war in Iraq are not, by and large, blood-thirsty war mongers? (Myself included). Have you ever heard of Reinhold Niebuhr? Is he a blood thirsty killer?

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:56 PM

Well, I hate to ask this, but what does Reinhold Niebuhr have to do with this? Outside of his unorthodox Christianity which proclaimed the "Law of Love" which he based on the writings and thoughts of Kierkegaard, Heidegger, Buber, and Barth, further opening the doors to an interesting combination of social Christianity and Existentialism, he also believed in the importance of reacting to "evil." His other and far more well known writing came actually from a sermon he gave and is the God give me the power to blah, blah, blah thingie...........

So where does he fit in here?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:29 PM

Funny little tune there Kat! John probably liked it, I'm thinking he could find the satire in it too, but damn who's voice was that? That was the scary part!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:17 AM

By their very nature, the military and mighty righteous in the government, will glorify this war. It's called propoganda and is used to motivate support.

Naivete = believing the powers that be will not glorify the war. It's just the way things are no matter the war. All wars are glorified to some extent, for better or worse.

Thanks, RR, I don't have a clue, but I don't think he's that hard to imitate.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:30 AM

Reinhold Niebuhr was also a commited pacifist who came to the conclusion that there was such a thing as a justified military conflict. So I think that he is certainly a propos here. I included a clicky.

Reinhold Niebuhr's Just War theory


Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:43 AM

I think that it would be a doable task to interpret Niebuhr to apply to either side equally as it is with other Christianity based existentialists. Indeed, many a philosophical project has resulted in a dual of words representing opposing positions with all the words coming from the same person.......with the exception of Kierkegaard because no one ever had any real idea what it was he was talking about.(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:53 AM

Sort of like you, usually, eh? Spaw??? :-) Okay, let's split hairs. The church with which both Reinhold and H. Richard Niebuhr were attached was the UCC. The UCC has since adopted H. Richard's theory of "inactive resistance" as part of its doctrine and eschewed Reinhold's "Just War" theory. However, the UMC tends toward Reinhold's theory rather than H. Richard's. Of course you can equivocate anything down to nothing as was recently proven by the parsing of the word "is". However, it is generally accepted that Reinhold was the "Just War" theologan and H. Richard was the "Inactive Resistance" theologan. You don't happen to be a philosophy buff, do you?

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM

Kat:

While it is true that wars are usually glorified by those who survive them, or those who propose them, I am not sure that responds to the question.

I abhor this war. But I do have some real conflicts, which don't resolve with simplistic answers. One of them is that, like Thomas Jefferson, I hate tyranny. High or low. Whether enforced with torture, as is documented in the Hussein regime, or by emotional blackmail or the threat of violence, as occurs in many domestic arrangements. The proposition that under some circumstances justice -- supported by the use of force -- is the neareast that societies can get to organized morals (a paraphrase of the Reinhold link Beccy gives above) strikes me as very real but very dangerous. I mean that it could much too easily be used by lame brains as a justification for injustice.

The Hussein regime was certainly not going to acheive any rule of law under Saddam and his lads. The descriptions of their approaches to dealing with diverse opinions is even more gutwrenching than the pictures of battle currently coming from the desert.

I think there are other ways to deal with diplomatic problems, that we in the U.S. are really weak in, which come under the collective heading of public relations and diplomacy. But I can't think of any way to break the Hussein tyrrany over ancient Ur than force. In any case, force is what we are in. Given the facts of today there is only one viable position, which is to go for a fast surrender, gloves off and chips fall where they may. Given where we are, the only way out is to fight like hell. Whether we should or should not be there has become a theoretical exercise.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:25 AM

Amos- You are very eloquent. I agree that the Reinhold Niebuhr theory could be taken by some very frightening person and made into something terrible. This is, however, where my faith comes into the picture. I do believe in free will and I do believe that most people would prefer to live in the comfort and joy of peace. I think that eventually, most strive for it.

That's not to say there aren't evil monstrous people in the world. We all know they exist. Those who have power, as in Hussein's case, are a threat to EVERYONE not only by virtue of their existence, but by virtue of their power. By and large, though, I think most people are much happier without chaos and violence in their lives. That's where the individual morality vs. the group morality argument that Niebuhr posits makes its appearance for me. It's sort of like the argument about corporate morality vs. corporate sin (in the business/corporate sense...)

As to what you said about wars being glorified by those who survived them... I think most people elevate whatever struggle in which they have been involved. It's a coping mechanism. My point about most people who support the war not glorifying it may be more neatly stated this way. I do not relish the thought of people dying and being injured to reach the end that we are seeking. I do not like that my family and friends are in harms way to reach our goal. I am not happy that other people's sons, daughters, husbands, wives, or parents might lose their lives in pursuit of Iraqi liberation, but I do not see another way to accomplish it. It is a hard reality for me, but one that I support.


Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:45 AM

Well I, for one, am confident that when enough people, especially those in positions of worldly power and influence, determine themselves to create and implement humane and constructive ways to achieve their goals rather than settling for the time-honoured one of war, nothing and no-one will be able to stop that from happening.

It's just a question of when. Are we there yet? *sigh*

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:50 AM

I would submit, daylia, that we are not; the "beast" within does not retire because of words alone, because it is built on a lot of force itself. What it does tend to respond to, I hazard, is 'truthful emotion', rather than semantics. But it takes a lot to overcome even ordinary neurosis, let alone the deep lizard-brain insanity that breeds wars.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:13 PM

I agree, Amos. But in the end, the heart can and does overcome the endless posturing of the mind, if given half a chance. That's the power of 'truthful emotion' over semantics, as you said.

I really like these lyrics from Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Aspects of Love". Found them in the digitrad, and I'm posting them here because - well, because it feels good to share them. Then I'm going to stick the tape in my Walkman and listen to it as I enjoy the Nature Trail on this beautiful spring day ...


LOVE CHANGES EVERYTHING
Andrew Lloyd Webber

Love, love changes everything
Hands and faces, earth and sky
Love, love changes everything
How you live and how you die
Love, can make the summer fly
Or a night seem like a lifetime
Yes love, love changes everything
Now I tremble at your name
Nothing in the world will ever be the same

Love, love changes everything
Days are longer, words mean more
Love, love changes everything
Pain is deeper than before
Love will turn your world around
And that world will last forever
Yes love, love changes everything
Brings you glory, brings you shame
Nothing in the world will ever be the same

Off into the world we go
Planning futures, shaping years
Love (comes in) and suddenly all our wisdom disappears
Love makes fools of everyone
All the rules we made are broken
Yes love, love changes everyone
Live or perish in its flame
Love will never never let you be the same
Love will never never let you be the same

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:16 PM

Gawd, I love it.........The past several posts are a wonderful exa,ple of interpretive philosophy which is the right of everyone of course, but equally proves my point above. Had I spent the time to write my own examples based on poor old Niebuhr, I couldn't have done a better job! Thank you all!

And no Beccy, I am not a philosophy buff. I made the serious error of being a philosophy major, a decision that has offered me only one happiness......If I show my degree at Mcdonald's and offer them $1.39, they will give me a large cup of coffee.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:28 PM

Well, Spaw... I'm one up on you in terms of "useful" degrees. I was a Theatre major with a minor in Philosophy. Ugh. Try to get a job with that. I ended up in advertising as a media buying intern and in a professional kitchen as a chef. My Theatre degree got me a job cooking for the guy who wrote Cannonball Run. Yee hah. Hold me down.
That makes all the student loan payments worthwhile.

Beccy

P.S. I think if I had to read one more Camus novel I would have vomited.
:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:29 PM

Oops. Did I miss the point entirely or something, Spaw? If so, I'll go drink a cup of McDonald's backwash for my penance or something ...

;)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:33 PM

One more thing, Spaw... leaving equivocation aside, you must at least consider that poor old Reinhold is applicable to this discussion.

Have a fantabulous day and eat some garlic zucchini frittata,

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:49 PM

Beccy:

I grant you one can read too many Camus novels, but to my mind his contributions in shifting the shell of arbitrary and self-righteous moral postures was enormous. ANd back when he was writing, that was (I believe) a serious issue, and probably7 will be again after the heat of war subsides. Unfortunately, although he was brave in declaiming the existence of the existential void, he was useless in providing guidance toward the creations of answers. I know several people right here on the 'Cat who are much richer in that department than Albert C was! :>)

Spaw -- I also majored in philosophy many years ago, but what puzzles me is that you still remember all the convolutions. You must have been a serious student, huh?? When I was a smart-aleck sophomore I would have offered the notion that a "serious student of philosophy" was just an oxymoron. Come to think of it....

Love ya, ya jerk!

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-peace anthem
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:55 PM

Amos- I'm not denying the contribution he made to the "realm" of both literature and philosophy, but consider my circumstances. I was a Theatre major who was reading both too much Ibsen AND too much Camus at once. PLUS, I attended college when The Cure was a hot item on the music scene and I heard "Killing An Arab" MORE than one time too many at cast gatherings and in social settings alike. It was a lethal combination for my Camus tolerance.

BTW, in the existential tradition I would say the focus became MORE self-righteous by claiming there were no universal moral bounds for humanity. (I was not one of the more quiet students...) :-)

Beccy