BS: What Have We Learned from the War?

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:34 PM

"Chuffed"? Still pretty current round our way, I think. And here is a charity fund raising site that uses it as its name -"Chuffed".

(I love the way Mudcat threads can lurch off in a random direction like this...)

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:33 PM

McGrath! You said "chuffed!" I haven't heard that since I was engaged to a Liverpudlian over 40 years ago. Wonderful!

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:27 PM

One thing that should have been learned, and if it hasn't yet, it will be learned pretty soon, is that making war on Iraq was a pretty surefire way of ensuring that there will soon be an Islamic Republic in Iraq that is not likely to be at all friendly to the USA.

Or, alternatively, that American forces will need be heavily engaged for a long time in trying to suppress the people who will want that to happen, and attempting to impose an unpopular regime on the country which would be pro-American.

There are massive demonstrations in Baghdad every day - here are a few pictures, courtesy the BBC. True enough, they couldn't have happened under Saddam - these people hated Saddam. But they aren't going to roll over and accept occupation, or a regime that is friendly towards the occupiers. And they could be much tougher opponents than Saddam ever was.

Bin Laden must be dead chuffed by all this.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 12:56 PM

Well said, Peg and JudyR.

Troll: following your rationale, if someone expresses a political statement with which their employer disagrees, it's then okay to fire them?

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM

What I have learned from the war is that it is still possible to effectively hypnotize large numbers of people, and that mob psychology hasn't changed much. That mob psychology consists mainly of rationalization and automatic emotional gongs going off. The mode of communication is rampant demagoguery, and the password is "You're with us or you're against us". That tempers flare in inverse proportion to the application of analytical thought, person by person.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: JudyR
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:42 AM

What kind of mother grants a request for an interview against her daughter or son-in-law's views, and airs their dirty laundry and differences in public? Would you do that? I happened to have missed her interview with Bill O'Reilly today, and haven't heard anything she said, but it's an awful disloyalty, at the very least. My brother is a Conservative Republican, my mother is nearly as liberal as I am, but we disagree in areas -- I don't think she would ever speak against either of us publicly. Nor would I of them. Unless, perhaps, we were long estranged. And, again, what does this do to the kid? The family's already been through enough.

Even in lesser situations, such as when Barbra Streisand's mother gave an interview that hurt her (don't remember what it was about), that's unfortunate.

And yes, that's what the Tim Robbins speech was about. Now about Cooperstown, but what it represents.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Peg
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 02:01 AM

Look, anyone who takes the time to inform himself about Tim Robbins' career, and Ms. Sarandon's for that matter, would understand that these are not people for whom their "mammoth egos" are their sole guiding principle.

They value their families, their privacy and their rights. They speak out on political issues because they believe in their responsibility to do so, and with the understanding that, as entertainers, they have media recognition and perhaps easier access to a large public forum, but they ALSO make themselves targets in this way for criticism...and threats.

I admire them both a great deal. To me, they are the epitome of what it means to be "adults": successful, responsible, compassionate, socially-aware, and altruistic.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 01:47 AM

Also, Troll, you gave yourself away. Had you read Robbins' speech, you would have known about the nephew.

A discussion has to be between mutually informed people.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 01:45 AM

Has it occurred to you that any celebrity does not want his/her child featured in anything by a reporter because of potential risks to the child? Most celebrities keep their private lives away from the press -- especially their children.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Troll
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 11:44 PM

Re: the children. I did not know about the nephew.
The Grandmother was interviewed about her daughters anti-war views. She herself is a political conservative. She said that she had tried to discuss Sarandons views with her grandson, to ask him why he agreed with them, but the boy would not discuss the issue; his mothers view was the only correct view. Period.
When asked if Sarandon cut her any slack on their political differences because she was Sarandons mother, she said absolutely not. As I recall, that was the extent of the "attack" by the Grandmother;
an attempt to talk to her grandson.
I understand that Robbins called the reporter and threatentd him/her with bodily harm if he/she ever wrote anything about his family again. So much for the First Amendment; it only applies, apparently, when Robbins/Sarandon approve of what is being written.
Of course, the threat can be viewed as a consequence of the reporters exercising his/her rights, but it's one thing to register displeasure and quite another to threaten assault.
As I said, I did not know about the nephew, but if what you said is accurate, the teacher was 'way out of line. He/she had no right to grind his/her political axes in the classroom. However, I have a hard time justifying the thing with the greadmother as an attack on the boy.
As for,2) Robbins and Sarandon are teaching the children that war is evil. How sick is that? , this is not a bad thing. Unfortunately, it would appear that they are also teaching them that there is only one valid point of view and that it is unnecessary to even listen to any opposing viewpoints. I base this, BTW, on the interview with the grandmother and her discription of her grandsons reaction.
I fail to see why you call her "self-serving". She granted a request for an interview, spoke her piece, and received an invitation to the White House. Apparently, someone in the White House liked what she said.
Again, I fail to see where this is self-serving.
It looks to me like what Robbins is really afraid of is that people are not so willing as they once were to accept what prominent entertainers say as gospel and are letting them know it. This must be a crushing blow to those mammoth egos; that their every word isn't golden.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 07:07 PM

AND ONE MORE THING! (pant, snort)

Read Robbins' speech again, Troll -- it's not about Cooperstown. It is an articulately expressed fear of what is happening to the culture.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

Troll: re the Robbins speech: two children were attacked, Yes, the son was attacked by the grandmother, who is a self-serving woman who managed to get invited to the White House on the basis of her criticism of her daughter, Susan Sarandon. She did indeed say that her grandson was being brainwashed.

The other child was the 11-year-old nephew of Sarandon, whose school teacher ranted on about Sarandon's attitude toward the war until the boy spoke up in her defense.

Now, two comments:

1) You just don't ever go after children.
2) Robbins and Sarandon are teaching the children that war is evil. How sick is that?

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM

GUEST of 3:58-Well, if the shoe fits . . . Seriously, we have demonstrated that neither lack of evidence nor international law nor the opinion of the world will stop us from acting, and we have stated that we reserve the right to attack any nation, using any weapons, should we believe that A) they might be a threat, B) they might be in violation of a treaty we signed with them, or C) that they are in violation of human rights. If C had been the only reason, and had been brought up from the first, I would not be so suspicious, except that we ignore or ally with countries whose human rights record is just as bad. We can't target terrorism not simply because it is an attitude, but because every step we have taken to combat it only feeds the flames.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Greycap
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 04:19 PM

We seem to have learned, well, I have, that there....
(A) doesn't appear to have been any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
(B) Saddam Hussein and family can escape, just like Usama Bin Laden
(C) Senior Ba'ath party members can always go to Syria
(D) The new buzz-phrase is 'embedded'
(E)I'm going back to being embedded in folk music on the main 'Cat line,
byeeeee....

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Troll
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 04:03 PM

I'm not totally sure, but I believe that the person who "went after" tims kid was the childs grandmother. She said that the child had been brainwashed and Robbins made threats toward her if she ever said anything about his family again.
I stand by what I said regarding consequences. One of the big problems with our society today is that people are totally unwilling to accept any responsibility for their actions. Nothing is ever anybodies fault; their teddy bear rejected them as a child or something.
Robbins shot off his mouth. Fine. His right.
Now, someone who heard him didn't like what he heard. That someone had power at Cooperstown and said, "I don't want Robbins to come here." Fine. His right.
Now Robbins is complaining because the whole world doesn't love him. There were consequences to his action and he doesn't want to accept that.
Robbins needs to grow up.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM

Forum Lurker, Are you saying that the USA turned into a thief and a bully because it has the biggest stick in the schoolyard?   or that it will pick on smaller nations for fun?   

Consider this:
Well, we won Round Two, except for a few pockets of resistance in Paris, Manhattan and San Francisco. Now we may accept the enemy's center of command to shift from Baghdad to Damascus, with financial and logistic assistance coming as before from Riyadh. Our primary difficulty continues to be affixing a target. We can no more make war on "terrorism" than we can on jealousy or narrow mindedness, since terrorism is an attitude, rather than a political force. The devout Moslem continues to regard us as infidels worthy of perdition, and this is irrespective of his nationality. It is said that only some Moslems feel that way, but we do not see any public apologies on any part of Islam for atrocities committed in its name. The Two Towers were shot up mainly by Saudis, but the occasion was celebrated by Iraqis. So the Wahabis are still with us, and one wonders where they will open Round Three of the Jihad.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: SeanM
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 01:56 PM

After reading the declarations by India, and reading of the "off the record" comments by various diplomats...

The one thing EVERYONE in the world seems to have learned is that nuclear non-proliferation is the fastest way to lose your national sovereignity. That only by being able to decimate a US city or ten will a country prevent itself from being liquidated should they piss off the US, or should they find themselves economically desireable as a posession.

It's a scary row to hoe. And it's what we've proudly broadcast to the world.

BTW, for anyone REALLY interested in ridding the world of weapons of mass destruction, may I suggest Livermore Labs? Or the depot up in Washington State? From estimates that have been leaked (they can't actually state amounts, as any actual proof of what goes on is classified), we've got more chemical/biological terror locked up in those hellpits than the rest of the world combined... and they're researching even scarier shit daily...

M

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 01:56 PM

The Chomsky interview is pretty scary but, as usual, he cuts through the crap and bases his opinions on the facts.

We noticed that in virtually every speech that we heard by George W. after September, 2002, he began by talking about the horrors of 9/11 and then proceeded to talk about the horrors of Sadaam. He never said that Sadaam was responsible for 9/11, he just mentioned them togteher many times.

As the war was getting underway, there were many peace demonstrations in our little town and that led to several "support our troops" demonstrations. At one of these, we saw a sign which said, "What part of 9/11 didn't you understand?" We were strongly tempted to approach the man holding the sign and say. "We didn't understand the part where Iraq was responsible" but we decided not to because we know the person carrying the sign and his mind would not have been changed.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 10:30 AM

Well, the sad fact is that George W. Bush is a war-monger by definition. He leads a team of people who needed and wanted to have a war and used every means available to get one. They mongered that war left and right. They sold it in WalMart and in the United Nations and in England and Europe.

Now, it is dubious principle in my mind to decide to have your nation led by a war-monger. It doesn't seem like the best choice.

But one thing I have learned from this war is that you can stir up a lot of people in support of a war, by finding and pushing the right buttons and handing out a plausible sort of idealism that rings the right bells. So I won't bet that there won't be plenty of stout American voters wanting to re-elect a warmonger, just for spicing up the evening news the way he did. The American people are always grateful for good entertainment, and willing to pay for it, too.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: *daylia*
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 09:49 AM

According to Noam Chomsky's opinions in this recent interview, Iraq is a Trial Run, we're "learning" many things. None of which bode very well for peace, freedom, or human rights in the 21st century:

"The trial run is to try and establish what the U.S. calls a "new norm" in international relations. The new norm is "preventive war" (notice that new norms are established only by the United States)."

Chomsky draws a sharp distinction between "pre-emptive war" (self-defensive response to an ongoing or imminent attack by another nation) and "preventive war", ie. "The doctrine of preventive war is totally different; it holds that the United States - alone, since nobody else has this right - has the right to attack any country that it claims to be a potential challenge to it. So if the United States claims, on whatever grounds, that someone may sometime threaten it, then it can attack them ... The National Strategy Report said, in effect, that the U.S. will rule the world by force, which is the dimension - the only dimension - in which it is supreme. Furthermore, it will do so for the indefinite future, because if any potential challenge arises to U.S. domination, the U.S. will destroy it before it becomes a challenge. "

He also points out that the only "defence" smaller and weaker nations have against the new US 'norm' is the proliferation of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. "So the United States is telling the countries of the world: if you are defenceless, we are going to attack you when we want, but if you have a deterrent, we will back off, because we only attack defenceless targets. In other words, it is telling countries that they had better develop a terrorist network and weapons of mass destruction or some other credible deterrent; if not, they are vulnerable to "preventive war". (emphasis mine).

Unfortunately, this is NOT an "elective" course of study - seems we're stuck with it, like it or not.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM

GUEST-It also teaches all of the smaller kids that you have a really big stick and will use it if it suits your purposes. Your motives are questionable if you take out the bully, but then take all of the lunch money in his pockets.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 08:31 AM

Amos: Saddam did have air power; they had only to fly and die but they chose not to. He did have anti-ship missiles, but only hit a Kuwaiti mall with one. His naval forces were pitifull, but minelaying can prove deadly to any shipping.

I would not vote for Bush or Blair, but I have to say I support their actions in Iraq. Saddam Hussein could have destabilised the entire world by sending one missile into Israel. Without doubt he would sold weapons and support to any anti American/western terrorist group. Syria was allowing him to pump illegal oil to foreign buyers (I wonder which Europeans benefitted from it?) despite UN sanctions.
War is an ugly solution to any problem; but sometimes one must fight a bully in order to secure peace. It also teaches other bullies in the playground that the stick hurts, better to pick on smaller kids who dont have one.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 03:32 AM

Sorry about the bad paste thing -- I will make a clicky next time.

Troll -- did you read the whole speech? You say that if people don't like what you are saying that they can say so, and not invite you to their functions.

However, when disagreement with a persons's statements or stance causes you to go after their children, then indeed your culture is in big trouble.

I really abhor the godawful polarization that has taken place in the US in recent years, and which has become extreme under the Bush administration. The US always functioned best when a middle, moderate, sensible perspective prevailed.

One more thing: Bush's handlers are even now planning for the 2004 election -- lying, manipulating, disenfranchising, hiding, sneaking, cheating. If the American people who detest what is going on don't pull together in 2004, it will happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Peg
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 02:19 AM

thanks for pasting in (however inappropriately) that speech by Tim. Very inspiring and dead-on.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: JudyR
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 02:11 AM

That's very powerful.

It's true that there was a brief window of opportunity after 9/11 -- indeed, it was a time when most of us put aside our partisanship to feel together, as Americans. Then we were told to go shopping.

This is an awful time in the nation. It's unfortunate that the reaction from many who read that speech will be sniping and more attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 12:54 AM

Troll:

That isn't up to your usual standards.

There are constraints of both principle and law -- not to mentionmanners -- which bound what consequence3s people can exercvise on each other legally, especially from positions of power such as the bench and the Executive branch.

Taking revenge on people because they do not believe in organized killing is kinda immoral, I'd say, and certainly impolite, and certainly a violation of the spirit of the first amendment oif not the letter of it.

The blacklisting of actors who were named as pro-communist in the 50's wasn't illegal, technically -- just a sort of free consensus of the particpants to be bullied by the McCarthy paranoia -- but do believe it was moral?

I don't.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Troll
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 10:02 PM

"A chill wind is blowing in this nation. A message is being sent through the White House and its allies in talk radio and Clear
Channel and Cooperstown. If you oppose this administration, there can and will be ramifications."
Yeah. It's called consequences.
If people don't like what you are saying, they have the right to say so and, furthermore, the right to decide that your company is not needed at their event. If there is no contract violation involved, that's that.
Mr. Robbins knowledge of his First Amendment rights aparently does not extend that far.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 01:36 PM

One thing that we might have learned from the war hasn't happened completely yet, but is happening as we giddily waltz our way through life, noticing nothing. The following is a speech by Tim Robbins.


   
Published on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org

'A Chill Wind is Blowing in This Nation...'
Transcript of the speech given by actor Tim Robbins to the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., on April 15, 2003.

TIM ROBBINS: Thank you. And thanks for the invitation. I had originally been asked here to talk about the war and our current political situation, but I have instead chosen to hijack this opportunity and talk about baseball and show business. (Laughter.) Just kidding. Sort of.
(click)

---

Lengthy copy-paste non-music article deleted. Next time, please provide a link, plus a summary in your own words.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 11:34 AM

The lesson that this war has taught us is that Americans have a very short memory, are easily impressed by big explosions, and don't have a clue as to how the laws of cause and effect can come back to humble you.

We have taught the rest of the world a lesson, too, though. We have the tools and the will to use them. We don't take no sh*t. We are very good at fighting wars and we'll do it with you or without you. We are now the Only Kid on the Block that anyone else has to worry about. And we have our little buddy, Great Britain, to confirm that we are the greatest.

Too bad we still can't stop a single dude with a small device from blowing us up on a random basis. Too bad we have given a lot more reasons to people around the world why they should fear us and hate us. Because that is what the other kids will do when they see one kid who brags about how great he is, and shows off all of his great stuff, and makes fun of the other kids, and starts pushing them around, making them do what he wants to do. . .

More "mindless rhetoric" from the left, I guess. Here's a little more:

We have won a war against an enemy that was clearly outmatched from the beginning. We did it with great skill; there are far too many examples from history to show that it takes more than technological superiority to win any struggle. The magnitude of the victory, while impressive, tends to undercut the argument for going to war in the first place. How was Iraq an "imminent threat to America's security"?
That was the justification for waging war without the UN's sanction. And whether we like it or not, without that sanction or justification we are a "rogue state",in violation of international law (such as it is).

Where was the threat? Without the WMD's we have no legitimate case for this war as self-defense. According to my Political Science text, the only other legitimate justification for one nation violating another's sovereignty without itself being considered a "rogue state" is a long term and severe human rights violation or crisis and there is a case to be made for our incursion, based on what Saddam was doing to the people of Iraq. But the case for this must be made prior to the action and validated by the international community, which it clearly wasn't. It was only late in the game that the administration began to speak of "liberating the Iraqis", and this appeared to be no more than an attempt to justify our decision to fight after other arguments were not successful in swaying world opinion. Talk about your empty rhetoric. . .

Oh well. round and round it goes, and where it stops nobody know.
I love you kids.
Have a wonderful Holiday
Bart

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 02:38 AM

D'ye think maybe Wolf will be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour for his heroic stand well south of he Kuwaiti border? Poor guy always looked as if he was frozen stiff; I couldn't stand it, so usually looked for "the Simpsons", "Star Trek" or the "X-files".
    What have we learned from the war? Well, if we hadn't already known, we could have said "that Rumsfeld wants another one."

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 12:07 AM

Life under the Ba'ath party described here

New freedoms for the Shi'ite majority described here.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 12:04 AM

CNN did not need the Saddam torture stories to create the necessary domestic support in the USA for Bush's war, and they did "need" a way to broadcast from Baghdad (for their own profit and high media profile), so that's why they suppressed the stories. Pure self-interest. That is the credo of the $ySStem that governs the USA and most of the World.

This is not hard to figure out.

Had the release of those stories been a crucial factor in turning public opinion in the desired direction (like the phony baby-incubator story was in '91), then they would have been released. Since it wasn't necessary, the decision rested on the usual marketing motives.

Profit is the only thing driving the $ySStem. Greed for money and turf. That is the same thing that drove Al Capone and Boss Tweed. No soul, no coherent beliefs, no philosophy, no spiritual or social purpose, no ideal...just profit.

It would not be easy to come up with a credo more satanic than that for running a society, although some people (like the Khymer Rouge, Stalin, and Mao) have...from time to time.

Which is cold comfort to me. State Communism is NOT the only viable alternative to amoral corporate capitalism. Not by any means. Both Communism and corporatism are grotesque failures in advancing human development, and to champion one as the only possible alternative to the other is as stupid as to champion the Republicans and Democrats as the only possible alternatives to each other. But if a government and SySStem tell people such things from Grade 1 on, and teach them not to think of any other possibilities at all, then you can easily get them to spin their wheels forever trying to choose between two corrupt and useless choices. It's the blind leading the blind.

(I used the word "satanic" above, by the way, in either a metaphorical, an allegorical, or a spiritual sense...depending on your basic understanding of reality. Pick the mode that suits you best. It works fine on all levels. By "satanic" I mean...amoral, evil, stupid, elitist, and opposed to the maintenance of both life and freedom for most ordinary people in most places.)

And I indict BOTH Communists and Corporate Capitalists for so doing!

CNN is a joke.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 11:32 PM

It is ridiculous to hear the chest pounding about the brilliance of the campaign as hinging on new tactics and new thinking, Infomration Age warriors or similar stuff and nonsense. Of course information made a difference in flexibility, but the Rangers and Deltas had information superiority in Somalia, too -- remember Somalia? We were mighty flexible there, also.

The key factors that made this war as fast as it was were the fact that the enemy had no air power at all, no anti-air-warfare power at all, no Naval power at all, and no naval defense systems at all. All he had were grunts and artillery, RPGs and AKs.

I am glad about one aspect of this war, and that is that it is effectively over, as far as Iraq is concerned. May they build themselves a nation to be proud of and to be free in, independent of American politics. (I can dream, can't I?).

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Troll
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 11:32 PM

Claymore, old habits die hard. Marxism is a proven failure, but you'll still find people busily working toward the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.
How else do you explain Chicago Cubs fans?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 09:23 PM

I'm wondering about what you folks think of the new revelations that CNN sat on Saddam torture stories for the past 12 years in order to be able to broadcast from Bhagdad. It kinda shoots the living hell out of the "US co opted the media bit", dontcha think?

And it appears to me that some people have learned nothing from this war; they'll keep on spouting ignorance and the mindless retoric of the left as the world passes them by...

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 08:58 PM

Too true, unfortunately. Anyway around it, LH ?

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: ex-pat
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 07:23 PM

If you can't bark with the big dogs, get off the porch!

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 05:22 PM

It isn't the ordinary public that's so afraid to speak out. It's the media. Why? Because the media is owned, bought, and paid for by the same people who fund the political parties, the military industries and the wars. The media people don't want to lose that funding or bite the hand that feeds them.

As for individual reporters, if they stray too far from the official line for too long, they find themselves out of a job, and blacklisted. And that is something to fear too.

The SySStem is run on fear. Depend on it. Money is the primary weapon of coercion, and it works in almost every case. If it doesn't, there are other means at hand...such as blackmail, character assassination, and the gun.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 05:00 PM

Well, if we watched the news to learn from the war, we learned nothing. This is Toronto Globe & Mail, April 16th.

Facts fall victim to war jargon


By RUSSELL SMITH
Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - Page R1

The media coverage of this war has been disgusting. North American media, and in particular the U.S. television stations, have been cravenly submissive to the Pentagon and the White House; they rolled over and gave up even before Saddam Hussein did.

---

Lengthy copy-paste non-music article deleted. Next time, please provide a link, plus a summary in your own words.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 03:59 PM

lurker - Well, it seems fairly obvious to me...

Show me where I am wrong.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 09:47 AM

Interesting article on depleted uranium here

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 03:07 AM

BJ3417LA---- check-check-check! The playtime and/or record sales of the Dixie Chicks did NOT go down after they said what most folks were thinking. As I say---check, check and check again!

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 03:05 AM

BIG BOMBS MAKE BIG HOLES

De Orc

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 12:09 AM

Little Hawk-Why do you constantly associate the U.S. and Israel as part of a distinct political alliance? I won't claim they aren't allies, but American and Israeli foreign policies and commercial interests are quite disparate and not getting any closer.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 10:30 PM

Can't argue with your military logic and good battlefield sense Claymore, but great causes are not won in the end by military means, they are won by great ideas. Military means just win specific battles or specific campaigns. The present US administration is founded upon ideas so blind, self-serving, and destructive that it almost defies description, and that is plain to most people in the World today...but not to most Americans as yet.

Napoleon was a superb general, but a lousy politician, and he finally alienated so many different people that they all got together as one, forgot their mutual differences for awhile, and crushed him. Something quite similar happened to Hitler (who was not a superb general, but he had a superb army). Something similar is going to happen to the USA and Israel. When, I don't know. By whom I don't know. But it is going to happen. And it will happen in the next few decades. You and I may or may not live to see it.

You're a loyalist to a cause that is fatally flawed, despite being more heavily armed than any other cause in history thus far. I don't fault your instinct for loyalty, I just think it's being given to the wrong people. But of course, your loyalty is your own business.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 09:54 PM

Claymore-

1. Provided that A) the political objectives are desirable for the benefit of the nation and B) that the military commanders are in fact doing their jobs.

4. and 5. have been true for a long time; the Mongol victories proved 4, and the Romans won based as much on logistics as tactics.

7. But the American pilots' IFF isn't the British soldiers' friend.

9. And I suppose you think that's a good thing?

10. Yep, and just because the "mangy dogs" are warning that there's a cliff ahead doesn't mean they should be listened to, right?

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 09:30 PM

Simple, Ebbie! You got the biggest stick, you the winner. Don't make you right But it does definately make you the the winner.

This particular war in Iraq reinforced this and like Claymore said, "When George Bush mumbles, other countries in the worlD had better strain to listen."

Like I said, we're not talking right or wrong here, just what we have learned (like we didn't allready know it?) which is that the US has the biggest stick.

Personally, I'd like to see Rumsfeld out of "foriegn policy" because he gets his jollies whacking folks and will continue whackin' 'em as long as Bush, who also seems to get a little joy from it, and the American people will let him...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 08:57 PM

Claymore, I don't understand.

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 08:18 PM

While I cannot expect this crowd to functionally understand a word I am writing, I will attempt to honestly answer the question:

1.        That the proper role for a president is to clearly state his political objectives to his military leaders, and then get the hell out of the way and let them do their job. His job is to keep cool and don't let the second guessing get to him.

2.        Billy Mitchell was right, but was content with smart pilots. He needed smart planes and smart munitions.

3.        Chuck Krulack was the visionary of this war, and using his doctrine, "The Strategic Corporal" and the "Three Block War" the Marine Corps will become the lead service in doctrine, and will soon have a General as the next Chief of Staff.

4.        Speed is now the goddess of the battle field. Mass, the old goddess, can now get you killed.

5.        Logistics is a leash in which you must leave plenty of coils as you approach the tipping point.

6.        GPS has reduced loitering time to minutes.

7.        God is not your friend; your IFF is…

8.        This war left the liberals with moist eyes, and the former Russian client-states with wet seats…

9.        When George Bush mumbles, the other nations of the world had better strain to hear…

10.        Mangy dogs bark, but the caravan moves on…

Subject: RE: BS: What Have We Learned from the War?
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM

In fact, the similarities between the reporting on CNN and The Iron Chef are remarkable.