BS: Strange Displays of Faith

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:13 PM

Pass the cat'n nine tails to Spaw. NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:14 PM

Didn't mean to ignore you, McG. I am not familiar with those pilgrimages. Do they throw dirty laundry at the the saint they are honoring too?

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM

Walking barefoot and enduring some discomfort are very much part of them, as with many pilgrimages.

I think, if you talked to those Poles, they would explain what was going on in rather different terms. It's common enough in many places to leave tokens at the end of a pilgrimnages at a shrine - very often the footwear which was worn, as a kind of representation of the hardship involved. More typically shoes than socks, but that's not a significant difference.

I'd be inclined to doubt if the picture of a kind of Aunt Sally sock chucking competition is actually an accurate depiction of what takes place.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:19 PM

My god -- Spaw has subtly altered the entire future of human religion, and his humorous and fictional impulse will pass from here into the world -- much like his other emissions -- and be altered, taken out of context and gradualy be exagerrated into a national, and then a world-wide movement -- the Methane Movement -- which will be responsible, indirectly, for the major religious wars which, in 2098, bring down civilization as we know it between Clanston, Ohio, and Fumbleton, Illinois, inclusive.

It's nice to know that someone from these hallowed cyber-halls has made a real difference....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM

Scuse me, I gotta go lick my balls some then git back to maulin' some real-live babies, now I've had my tweedy appetizer.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:38 PM

Next time I go on a pilgrimage with you McGrath, please remember....

"the footwear which was worn, as a kind of representation of the hardship involved. More typically shoes than socks, but that's not a significant difference."

....as I'll be wearing the $150.00 Nikes and you can have the pair of tube socks!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM

I'm a brown lace-up-boot man myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:53 PM

See, Tweezer, I told ya' that you was gonna get a butt kickin' with this one an' looks like frrom the looks of things their ain't much T-butt left fir kicking.

But, hey, I don't think you are beyond redemption. Ol' Rev. Bobert will get you all Baptertized and Confessorated in der Mississippi in a few weeks when we're doing the Handy's and all will be well.

Yeah, there's a certain appeal to jump on folks that ain't like us 'cause they, ahhh, ain't like us. Hey, I cornfess mah ownself to not understandin' a lot of things but, hey, if they ain't beatin my sorry butt with no chains then its their lumps, not mine.

Now I reckon a lot of it has to do with perspective, too. I mean, these folks din't grow up with McDonalds on every corner...

Ahhh, nevermind...

The Boberdz

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:36 PM

Thanky Brother Boberdzdrz, I'm tryin' to get my breathin' back to normal after witnessin' WYSI licking her nuts!

I am sorta thinking thet ol' Kevin haz gone over the edge and may need a good duct taping to lighten hiz case ob the vapours summat az he is certainly displaying some insane and crazy behabiours on my ass this day. Dang, I have never been this summarily dissed since....day before yesterday at least... You have got the way with the words McGrath!

Yerz,
Tweed

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:37 PM

Mob psychology is an interesting thing all right -- why I know one backwards country where you can walk all over town at night and not find a soul to have a talk with because they are all kneeling, lying or sitting in front a glowing white rectangular light which they worship there, moaning and carrying on., It ruins thier eyesight. It destroys their brains. It takes up all their free time. It hypnotizes their children and undermines their social skills. Yet, they do not stop!

Now, I ask you -- isn't that kinda crazy??

Kinda weird?

Self-destructive?

Yep, it sure is.

What gets into these people?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: khandu
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:03 PM

All y'all come across as strange and weird to me. That's why I keep comin' back! If you all were like me, then I'd have no reason to hang around you at all...that would be some strange form of masturbation. And my type of masturbation ain't strange at all...well, not to me, anyhow!

Kk

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Susan from California
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:01 PM

I have to say, I found the rhythm of the chest pounding and the sort of dance of the chain whipping to be somewhat hypnotic. I find the culture to be darned fascinating. But if you want to talk weird, some Christians believe that bread and grape juice/wine actually change into blood and flesh, and then they eat it!

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Susan from California
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:03 PM

BTW, I was worried about spelling rhythm properly and I forgot to put a smiley face in there re the transfiguration stuff :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:09 PM

Hummmmm...having spent some little time in that part of the world, what makes any of you think that there is any civilization between Clanston, Ohio, and Fumbleton, Illinois?

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:34 PM

Art:

ROTFLMAO -- ya got me fair there!!    Maybe -- not for the first time -- the hinge of civilization's history hangs on an invisible thread!! LOL!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:46 PM

artbrooks, I was raised in that State of darkness and forboding which lies between Ohio and Illinois and am proof positive of the high degree of civilization that grew along the Brandywine and Big Blue Rivers.   
There were strange displays there also, but mostly involved klan folk marching around the courthouse when black people got a change of venue to our county, which had not been home to any blacks since the civil war days somehow or other. My friends and I were longhairs and it was our custom to holler insults at the whitesheets.
The response from them was of course the line from a Johnny Cash song popular in those days,
"Yore name is Sue,...How do you do...You gonna die!"

Crazed and insane behavior....right there in the cradle of Midwestern Culture! Neither side would have had any business running a nation or even the county successfully. I'm glad none of us ran for any office, but apparently others around the country who suffered from these diverse ailments have wormed their way into high places since then....and I would point to the Kingdom of Mississippi az proof of that, but would not want to wake the slumbering monarch khandoo, who is much spent from his exertions of late.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:47 PM

"Fumbleton", Illinois??? Omigod. How about Schyttsville, Wyoming?

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:52 PM

Sure! Goes with Diocese of BuFu, PA!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:35 AM

It worries me a lot when religion expresses itself in some form of violence. Seems to happen in just about every religion, and I can't understand why. Oftentimes, it's not an official action of the religious group - but it happens, nonetheless.
Maybe every group has a lunatic fringe, and we shouldn't judge the entire group by the actions of part of it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:43 AM

Maybe every group has a lunatic fringe, and we shouldn't judge the entire group by the actions of part of it.

Right ... well... there ya go, huh? I mean, there you have it!! Right? Good point, Joe!

Actually, I haven't seen as much violence from some religions as others. At the low end of the scale, I think, are Buddhists (except for occasional self-immolation), Quakers, Sufis, and maybe the Chrisian Scientists and Simonologists. At the high end are the Church of Rome, the Wahabbi Muslims, various other Christian sects and Communists. These are wild-ass guesses, so please don't quibble with them.

Someone oughta do a study. Come up with some broad, condemnatory statistics. Then we could really start pointin' fingers 'round here... :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 04:00 PM

I think Richard Nixon would have counted as the lunatic fringe of Quakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Susan from California
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:53 PM

I think Nixon was not from the "silent meeting" branch of Quakers. Silent Meeting Quakers are what most of us think of when we think about The Society of Friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:53 PM

Spaw:

You ask, "Why is truth so much stranger than fiction?", and I have often pondered this observation myself. But in your case I have to make an exception!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 01:43 AM

Well, Amos, I suppose it's correct that organizations that are pacifist by definition, are generally non-violent. They're also usually very small organizations, and not particularly diverse.
But if we're talking about large, diverse organizations, particularly religious organizations, there will be some fringe groups in the organization who will use violence in some way as an expression of their faith.
I don't think it was fair of you to single out particular creeds like you did. The ones you listed certainly have examples of violent faith expression in fringe groups - but I think that almost all large religious organizations have the same phenomenon (unless you define away those adherants whose conduct you consider unacceptable).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:38 AM

" there will be some fringe groups in the organization who will use violence in some way as an expression of their faith."

...but what if the gentler, pacifist end of the spectrum IS the 'fringe group'?..The other end of the spectrum certainly considers that to be true. Lacking any daily confirmation from a Supreme Being..(clouds forming "STOP THAT!" in big letters, or a thunderous voice proclaiming.."THIS group are wimps!")...how do we know what form of 'confirming the faith' the diety(s) prefer?

Many ponderous tomes have been penned analyzing and dissecting the "rules", but we still have 17,421 varieties of opinion. (17,422..the Zen Snake Handlers were just registered in Idaho yesterday).

Perhaps you are familar with Pascals Wager, in which he argues that it is more prudent to believe than not, as you lose nothing if you do, but risk eternal fire if you don't.

Nice idea, but one philosopher, Walter Kaufmann, pointed out that Pascal simply didn't think to list other possibilities. What if there is a Supreme Being with a strange sense of humor? What if HE doesn't LIKE being comsumed at mass? What if he TRULY gave us free will, and does not care what we do? What if.........

The point is, Pentacostal Snake Handlers believe in what they are doing, as do chain-wielding Muslims and street corner preachers. And have you ever been accosted by Jews for Jesus? I have. Or told that Heaven DOES exist, but that, like a gated community, there is a limited amount of space?

Well...all that being said, I do fret about the louder, more pugnacious displays of 'faith', but I suspect that they are merely manifestations of human nature (read "Testosterone")in a religious setting....but of course, I can't prove my suspicion, any more than a bleeding Muslim with a flail, or a bleeding Catholic who has had himself crucified to demonstrate his faith.....

...it just goes on, and on, and on.....with everyone proclaiming, "God is on our side!"

I do like the poster which proclaims, "Lord, please protect me from your followers"

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:40 AM

(that being said, I am going off in the woods for 2 days to sing and commune with Nature...so I am not ignoring any possible answers to my grumbling...just missing them)

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:48 AM

Dang, Bill, just when I was warming up to dump a mess o' revealed truth on you!! You wuss!

Joe, it wasn't fair, it was just grabbing dustbunnies outta my head from a quick scan. (I borrowed that phrase, I love it.) You are right that it is often the lunatic fringe that discolors the whole group. SOme folks just lose perspective, I guess...one of the things religion is famous for. I dunno, if the research was done, whether there would be any correlation between denominations and records of abuse or violence, and even if there were, I have no idea what it would mean. Every religous war has been completely justified, according to its participants. Gott Mit Uns and all that. I don't think it would lead anywhere.

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:12 AM

I got, like, 2 hours before we leave Amos, if you can condense "revealed truth" into that time frame *grin*...but since you are sorta agreeing with me, in a kinder, gentler way, I doubt it would add TOO much.

I am reminded AGAIN of Nietzsche (in Zarathrustra) paraphrasing an old woman.."Of course it was a just war..my son died in it."

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM

True enough what Bill pointed out. Often enough it's the forces of hate and violence and repression which are the mainstream, and the voices of friendship and reconciliation which are "the lunatic fringe".

St Francis and his followers, George Fox and the Quakers, Rachel Corrie and the other peace activists...

The thing is there are always going to be some good people on "the other side" and some bad people on "our side". You can't afford to get sucked into worrying too much about how the numbers work out, when you are deciding where you stand on any issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 01:44 PM

Odd proposition: if we were actually endowed with free will, then why are most of our major religions running around trying to suck up the approval of the Almighty? Especially if "He" created it as truly free, as a gleeful impulse, an exercise in self-entertainment on the most cosmic scale?

That's like living your whole life trying to earn the approval of a grandfather who died when you were six. Not that folks don't do that to themselves, sure...but is it a rational course? I mean if there's no trust fund?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 02:12 PM

Excuse me for butting in, but so far, nothing I have seen posted here has moved me to try to share, from my own understanding, what people may be experiencing in these actions, or why they may do them. I do see several people posting who have at various times said they wanted to understand, in private communications, what they do not understand about what people experience.... and who, time after time, really chose debate, ridicule, and attempted de-evangelization over the possibility of understanding.

My friends, if you really wanted to understand, by now you could have made it your business to understand. This kind of communication.... it just makes one want to be a careful steward of the energy it would take to respond to any of this seriously and with some care. Is that what you want?

OK, go back to it, that's all I wanted to say.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 02:57 PM

The idea of snake handling is actually very compatible with the concepts of Zen, but before handling the snake, one would want to ask its permission. If it was amenable to the idea, it would allow itself to be handled without doing any harm to the handler. It would be very un-Zenlike to handle snakes without their permission.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

To explain what is actually going you'd really need someone who understands, because they are part of the religious tradition within which it takes place. We can try to do that, maybe, for some of the strange ways our own particular tradition, whatever that may be, can throw up, but there's a real limit to how far we can, when we trespass beyond that.

There are points of similarity here with things that happen within other "faith communities", including the fact that within any expression of populist religious fervour there are going to be some people whose involvement is a lot more extreme than others, and that can distort our understanding of what is actually taking place.

The truth is, religion is dangerous. So is electricity. I remember reading once about a local legislature somewhere which voted to abolish electricity. There've been plenty of legislatures which, in their day, have voted to abolish religion. About as effective in both cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 04:11 PM

Well, you're right, Wyzzy -- I see some of these behaviors from the outside, and obviosuly they are being generated by an experience and a world view that I do not understand. And it is NOT flor lack of trying. I won't go into it any further, as it just leads to a box canyon.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:03 PM

All I know iz that if you poke the snake, it will bite you....
Ef you bomb Iraqis til they iz free and they bite you later on down the road, then that iz perdy normal behaviour, even if they whup themselfs wif chains and cut they heads wif the swords.

Yerz,
Lao Tzweed

Carolthesailor, don't let nobobby tell you thet ef you talk to the snake he won't strike. That iz one big load of sh*t! If he takes it in hiz head to bite you, there ain't no talkin' him out ob it!

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:47 PM

So how's that snake bite healing for you, Tweed? Doing ok?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 12:24 AM

I am so glad you hab axed that Mz.Sailor, and thanky fore yore consern.
Soon after being attacked mos vial by the bag o'diamondbacks and a couple of danged rabid, know-it-all pitbulls I went to see an old Miccosukkee root woman an she tole me to mek a poultiz from fresh bullshit and I did and thet is the reason how I am here and good as new.
An' I owe it all to khandoos and Little Hawg's gud frend Joe Offer for dividing up this extry fine forum an' mekin' it easy to locate all the frash bullshit I will ever have need of!   

Yes, it were a Strange Display ob Faith what caused me to slather up wif muck mos' foul, but I am healedup and ready to take my place az interim Mayor of Bagdad.

Yerz,
Tweedzrzd

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM

The idea of snake handling is actually very compatible with the concepts of Zen, but before handling the snake, one would want to ask its permission. If it was amenable to the idea, it would allow itself to be handled without doing any harm to the handler. It would be very un-Zenlike to handle snakes without their permission.

Carol, that's interesting. In southeastern Alaska, the Tlingit tribes do the same thing.

To this day, when they go fishing or hunting, they thank their potential prey for providing themselves for their brothers' sustenance and ask for their assistance.

I don't imagine that Zen has been traditionally known or taught in Alaska but the same respect for other beings is very evident.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:19 PM

God appears on crocodile

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:52 PM

ummmm...looks like 'hid' to me. But you see what you wanna see.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:29 PM

I dunno Bill, I see it pretty clearly myself. Maybe like the guy who first spotted it you need to "toss down a few beers."

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:41 PM

I see, I see...my wife just pointed out to me that it is NOT black letters on a white background!

well, that sure proves that...............nature is capricious.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM

C'mon guys. Look at the large picture of the 'gator. The letters are only partly formed so you have to speculate about whether the "U" will get closed into an "O" or whether the "D" (?) at the end will get rounded off.

Right now, it doesn't say "GOD," it says "GUN."

'Course that's a prettty young 'gator, so he(?) can prob'ly say a lot more when he's got more ad space on his growed up sidwalls.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:11 PM

Well JiK, I guess you won't be on the bus when the rapture comes.

Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:44 AM

besides...This is what it means

or this