Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI

Subject: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: GUEST,John in Brisbane
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:37 AM

I know enough about MIDI for general music use, but I have a techie problem that's really frustrating to answer.

Shortly I hope to be teaching a four part choir who have no sight reading skills. It's only a short term project so making best use of rehearsal time is critical. I can create appropriate MIDIs with the four harmony parts, so I was hoping to be able to play them back as 4 discrete audio parts, using 4 loudspeakers separated as far as possible in the rehearsal space.

What I know so far:

- Four channel soundcards are really only stereo reverb effects on the the other stereo pair.

What may be possible:

- Operate 2 (or more) soundcards concurrently, but I have no clues as to how to do this.

- Use a sequencer to send different channels to different souncards - again I'm clueless in this regard.

Any ideas as to how to achieve this would be appreciated.

Regards, John in Brisbane

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:44 AM

We meet again John!

4 channel devices: I've no idea about them.

2 sound cards in a PC: I have done this but I had quite a fight with interrupt conflicts before getting it to work. I have never tried sending to 2 MIDI devices at once though. My set up used an old card which had an excellent MIDI daugther board on it for MIDI and another card for the audio. I sent the MIDI output via the line out from the one card to the line in on the other rather than use one pair of speakers for MIDI and another for the rest.

How to send MIDI to 2 devices: This is uncharted territory but even my old version of Cakewalk 3 allows you to select more than one MIDI output device (Settings/Device/Output Device). If you select 2 devices and go to Settings/Patch List, you would notice that different port numbers are assigned to different playback devices. These ports can be assigned to individual tracks in the MIDI.

Anyway, I THINK that is how to do it with that piece of software - other software may have different methods. If you need any help with Cakewalk 3, you have my email address...

Do you have access to a MIDI keyboard by any chance? Most soundcards have an external MIDI port. It MAY just be possible to configure something like Cakewalk to send one port to the soundcard and another to the keyboard. That would be a lot easier than messing with 2 soundcards.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: Pied Piper
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 07:38 AM

Hi John
You might try panning the voices; voice 1 far left voice 2 centre left voice 3 centre right voice 4 far right. You probably know this, but the midi pan control is 0 fare left 64 middle 127 far right. Then just move the singers in the same way.

All the best
PP

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: Ed.
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:29 PM

I don't know what software you're using, but with Cubase (even the older versions) you can easily assign each midi track to a different midi output device.

On my system (with only one soundcard) I can choose between the onboard synth or 'midi out' I see no reason why it wouldn't work with 2 soundcards.

I agree with Jon that if you can get access to some sort of external synth or module, that would probably be the easiest route.

If you'd like a copy of Cubase, PM me for advice.

Ed

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:03 PM

If this is for a church choir, and if the church has a "modern" organ that you could use, it may have better "built-in" midi than you're likely to set up on your PC. Many of the newer organs (15 or 20 years) have very sophisticated midi systems, that allow play-in and play-back with part extraction (if you put it in in parts) to play multiple channels independently.

Sort of a long shot, but worth a look if it's there.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: Ed.
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:52 PM

Of course, if you have access to a number of external midi devices, you could simply daisy chain them, and tell each to respond to a particular midi channel.

You probably already know that. Just mentioning it in case you didn't.

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:08 PM

I am not sure that getting involved in all this midi set up is going to really be a time saver--When you have a lot of technology set up, you tend to spend all your time dealing with the technology, especially if it a "first time" situation--I think it will probably be a lot more work to organize this "MIDI teaching method" than it first appears(give yourself credit--this is a whole new approach to teaching choral music!)

If you've got limited rehearsal time, best to keep it simple--if this is an existing harmony choral group, I am sure that they have some sort of method for learning new material--best to start out working with them in this way, saving the new methods until you've got time for them--

My experiences with harmony singing are somewhat limited, but I remember them vividly-I learned a few painful lessons, which I'll pass on--

First, work out your arrangement completely, so that you know exactly what you want before you present anything to the group--

Second, know all the parts inside out yourself before you try teaching them to the group--

Third, even if they don't read music, have music, with everything layed out line-by- line, measure by measure,with reference numbers for lines and measures so you everybody knows where you are, all the time--

Fourth, make notes on your score of all the changes you make, as you make them, and review it after the rehearsal, so you won't have to say "Ah, anybody remember, what were we doing here?"

Fifth, make sure everyone knows their part before you move on--uncertainty is the enemy--

Sixth, strict attention to pitch and tempo in rehearsals can avert unpleasant surprises in performance-

You probably know all of this, and I apologize for going on about it--but just in case--

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: GUEST,John in Brisbane
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:26 AM

Thanks for all the advice above - it's a fantastic response.

I've used a MIDI device as input, but never as output. The penny has just dropped for me in the last few minutes that (I think) I can use conventional stereo audio output (panned to 0 and 127) PLUS I can send at least one channel to my puny MIDI keyboard - maybe two 'cos it's stereo. I used to sorta half know this stuff 5 years ago, so thanks for the refresher.

I have quite some time to prove the concept with all its hardware and software intangibles and I'm quite used to managing lots of audio wires.

So this is beginning to feel like a REAL solution.

I know from a choir director friend in Perth that church instruments have very fine electronics, but mine is strictly a secular activity.

NTed, will vear your excellent advice in mind. Have been on the receiving side of the baton for several years with a repertoire from high opera to Broadway. There's nothing more boring than sitting in a rehearsal area while SOME OTHER part of the group has to endure note-bashing. Hence my desire to note-bash at least four parts concurrently.

Many thanks again for the fine responses.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: Ed.
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:05 PM

Pleased that we've been of assistance, John.

(I think) I can use conventional stereo audio output (panned to 0 and 127) PLUS I can send at least one channel to my puny MIDI keyboard - maybe two 'cos it's stereo.

Absolutely. There's no reason why you shouldn't get two discrete channels from your external keyboard using midi panning. As it's 'puny' it's probably only got a single stereo output, but splitter cables that will allow you to send each signal to a separate speaker are easily and cheaply available.

Let us know how you get on!

Ed

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 06:20 PM

Thanks again Ed, yeah the audio stuff's a breeze.

For the daisy chaining do you use conventional DIN cables to connect from Synth 1 to 2 to 3 etc or do you need to use another opto coupled cable set?

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: Ed.
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:28 PM

Conventional DIN cables.

Connect the soundcard's 'MIDI out' to the first synth's 'MIDI in', take a 'MIDI Thru' out from that and connect it to the next machine's 'MIDI in', take a 'MIDI Thru' out from that and connect it to the next machine's 'MIDI in', and so on.

You'll need to tell each synth/module which midi channel it should use It's normally pretty simple, but you'll have to read the blurb to find out how for the equipment that you intend to use.

Ed

Subject: RE: Tech: 4 Channels Out From MIDI
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 09:57 AM

Just a quick follow up to those who'd kindly provided advice.

I had previously used this for 2 channels of harmony and found that it worked really well using Cakewalk (very easy to selct the appropriate bars and/or to loop the same selection ad infinitum). I quickly discovered though that I needed a PC accompanist, as in 'let's do the fugue from bar 324 to 368'.

Proof of concept of the 4 channel MIDI approach - using 2 soundcard audio outputs and 2 MIDI keyboard outputs- was moderately easy. 'Twas a bit rusty on the software side, but I eventually got it right.

The musical project fell very flat before I could put my rehearsal technique into place, but I'm moderately convinced that it can reduce the lenght of each rehearsal, and (maybe) reduce the number of rehearsals. At the risk of sounding uinfair, most rehearsals spend more time on the weaker sections, while the other groups sit around like cold bottles of pee. At least this way everyone gets a chance to rehearse MOST of the time.

Thanks again, somewhat belatedly,
John