BS: IRAQ: Bloody Sunday (American Style, 2003)

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 11:14 AM

I didn't put anything in your mouth, gnu. Note the lack of quotation marks. I simply gave two reasons you might think that Iraqi civilains are "bad guys." Judging by your indifference to the deaths of Iraqi civilains, I might belive it was the latter reason, but who am I to know?

And if you're going to call me "Leper" instead of "Lepus," at least spell it correctly, genius.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 11:57 AM

"In doing so they would be making the worst possible mistake of their lives. Not only for themselves but for their communities and their country in general."

No doubt true, Teribus, but so what? That's what will happen. It always does. It happened in America when the British soldiers did the same thing didn't it?

There is a crying need for neutral observers who are able to tell it as it is, however it is. That's what the press is supposed to be able to do. Perhaps, with another three more Iraqis shot dead today by the soldiers occupying the school, some reporters or TV crews will stick around this time. Though maybe they are worried they might get shot too, and you couldn't blame them either, in the light of what has happened before now.

(Trading personal insults in a thread about something like this doesn't make too much sense. Better to do that in PMs, if it's got to be done at all.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: gnu
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:29 PM

McGrath, you are correct regarding my use of "Lepur" which was uncalled for... funny, I thought, but uncalled for. Anything for a joke, in my book. I see, however, by Lupus Rex's last post that he still insists on false insinuation.

Bad guys = guys with AK's. I saw an interview with one of the troops who said he fired at "guys with rifles" and estimated there were about 25 of them. Doesn't sound like civilians throwing rocks to me. Sounds like a bunch of cowards amongst a crowd of civilians with much less disregard for the safety of those civilians than the troops. Anyway, until "all the facts are known", I tend to side with the troops because I cannot believe that such a well trained and disciplined force would fire on innocent, unarmed civilians.

I agree they should not have accepted the offer of use of the school. That was an error in judgement, both "politically" and strategically.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 05:03 PM

"I cannot believe that such a well trained and disciplined force would fire on innocent, unarmed civilians."

Maybe that depends what the training has included, and how the discipline is directed. When it comes to being "a well trained and disciplined force" the British paras score pretty high...

I can't see how using heavy machine guns against a civilian crowd could ever be an appropriate response, even if there had been some guys with rifles. Some of the people killed weren't even in the crowd, they were in their homes across the street.

Someone "offered" them the use of the school? I can't quite see that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 06:14 PM

Finally remembered the name of the movie.....Mirrors the hell out of this. Check it out if you get a chance......Rules of Engagement starring Tommy Lee Jones and Smuel L. Jackson.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:08 PM

Mmmm ! Kevin - At a cost of £200 Million, and 4 years and counting the enquiry has still not reported on "Bloody Sunday".

Arn't you being a little premature in anticipating thier findings ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:42 PM

The paras killed 14 unarmed people, and it should never have happened, and there was a vigorous cover-up effort, that much is clear. Does anyone even try to deny that now? The arguments are about how far it was planned and authorised in advance, and how far it was spontaneous.

But fair enough - they didn't shoot any small children, and they didn't fire heavy machine-guns into the crowd and into neighbouring houses.

I note that this story doesn't seem ri be seen as that significant in the media - see Google news -"Search and browse 4,500 news sources updated continuously, " and it doesn't even mention it on its front page at this time. (That link will of course lead to whatever page is current at the time when it's clicked). )

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 May 03 - 09:05 AM

They're just dead sand niggers, Kevin- why would the news media - particularly the American media-be interested?

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 03 - 09:41 AM

Yeah..........I haven't seen the paper yet but the TV news this AM carried a story. Now that we've had it happen at least three times I guess they figure it's time to up the "billing." Even so, it was about 7 or so stories deep. The leading story of course is Dumbya's upcoming speedh today aboard the carrier Abraham Lincoln. And since the carrier is too far out for Marine One, he's flying in for a deck landing aboard a Viking (in the front seat next to the pilot no less) which is the first time a President has made a jet landing on a carrier's deck. Does anyone have some statistics regarding the incidence of trap-wire failure on carriers?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 03 - 04:13 PM

Lepus: when I wish you to explain to Mudcatters something I said, I will ask you to, okay? I think most Catters understood that I meant the folks in that crowd that had guns were the "bad guys."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: beadie
Date: 01 May 03 - 04:27 PM

McGrath:
    Does this mean that the British Army brass have learned their lesson from the Amritsar affair (colonial India)? If memory serves, the commanding officer of the detachment that dispatched a huge number of unarmed men, women and children was reported to have told the hearing officer that the reason he didn't use his machine gun (which was mounted on a truck) was that he couldn't fit it through the passsageway into the courtyard of the temple.

   Military forces are trained to respond instantly to immediate, deadly threats against the unit. It is much more of a questionable situation when there is time for reflection and reasoned decisionmaking before firing back. I wonder . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 03 - 04:44 PM

They probably have. I hope they have learned something since Bloody Sunday.

Quite possibly the soldiers who machine-gunned the protesters in Falluja on mOnday, and then again on Tuesday, were doing what they had been trained to do.

In that case the people responsible for they training don't seem to have learned much from disasters such as Bloody Sunday or Amritsar. Or Wounded Knee for that matter. And the soldiers involved have been denied the proper training to which they were entitled.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 May 03 - 04:46 PM

Bite it, Doug. He asked me a question, and I responded.

Anyways, you said "Right. Believe the bad guys instead of our troops. So typical of so many of you. Oh well." The "bad guys" being believed were those that were interviewed after the massacre. Again, unlikely to have been the "folks in that crowd that had guns." Quit trying to weasel out of it. The meaning of your statement was clear: Don't trust Iraqis, because they're Iraqis.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: Mark Clark
Date: 01 May 03 - 05:52 PM

“Just like the Alamo.” Yeah, I remember the Alamo. That was when a bunch of illegal immigrents were fighting to “liberate” a big piece of Mexico because Mexico had outlawed slavery and they were afraid they might lose their investment and have to do their own work. In the end, the U.S. Government (J.K. Polk?) supported the idea of illegal settlements in foreign territory and, after illegally annexing the coveted territory, sent troops to Mexico City to explain it to them.

But I don't think the troops who shot the Iraqi civilians are necessarily monsters. After all, they are our neighbors and sons and daughters, people we used to know. It's just that their training carefully removes any inhibition against killing and erases the possibility of assigning value to human life outside their own unit. That training is to make them more effective in battle and to help protect them. The fault, in my opinion, lies with the government and military chain of command who allowed those energized killing units to be used as police.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:04 PM

I keep on thinking about that photo that was in the press of a US soldier with "Kill 'em all" written in large letters on his helmet.

Or rather, about what kind of army it is, where something like that is condoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:23 PM

We need a kinder, gentler machine gun hand.


Which reminds me for those who care you can get presale Neil at the Greek Theatre tickets by entering "LA" at ticketmaster right this very minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: Mark Clark
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:35 PM

Well the U.S. now has an all volunteer military so I suppose a few people might enlist just to get the chance to kill somebody. I don't think that's common though. Mostly they are carefully trained to do exactly what they are told and don't stay long if the training doesn't take hold.   

I don't forgive the U.S. government for these attrocities but I'm inclined to give the foot soldier the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I'm not seeing the reality.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: DougR
Date: 02 May 03 - 01:06 AM

Lepus: horse pucky!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 03 - 08:51 AM

"Mostly they are carefully trained to do exactly what they are told" That is another reason to be alarmed at this kind of episode - the idea that they might in fact have been doing what they were told to do.

In the same way my worry about that helmet "Kill 'em all" wasn't that there might be the occasional soldier who is screwed up or stupid, any large organisation is likely to have some like that, but that it looked as the label was ok by the army authorities, rather than being recognised as a serious breach of discipline, with very dangerous possible consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 May 03 - 11:52 AM

Kevin are you nuts? Let me play devil's advocate for a minute here. I have stated many times on this forum that I refused induction and did not go to VietNam, not because I'm a pacifist, but because I am positive that if you are trying to kill me, I will do my damndest to kill you first. My question was how I would cope later and indeed many Viet vets had plenty of problems some of which were never overcome. But let's assume that we are both soldiers and we are in a war.

Do you suggest that perhaps we have a spot of tea with someone to see what kind of guy they are before we decide whether we kill them or not? BTW, I obviously did not support this war either, but if I had (just for the sake of discussion) and I were in the position of invading that country, I'd damn well be out to "kill 'em all." So the fighting part ends and I'm doing this peacekeeping duty. A loud and noisy crowd begins to form and soon we are looking at a throng of people obviously hostile to ME....not the USA, which they really are....but to ME!!! I mean they ain't in the US and neither am I. They are right in front of me...men, women, and children. I know that we have suffered losses because of suicide attacks by men, women, and children and I am now pretty wired! Rules say don't fire unless fired upon. Okay. The crowd starts throwing rocks and I wonder which rock is really a grenade. Then someone says he sees someone shooting. Given the order to fire, I am now gonna' "kill 'em all." I also expect that the rest of the platoon is going to do the same. I don't want anybody beside me with a wait and see mentality!

I am not trying to justify the actions taken here. Both groups were put in untenable positions that they should never have been in. As I said at the beginning of this thread, the fault lies up the ladder!!! But I gotta' tell you that any army I join better damn well have that "kill 'em all" philosophy. If I'm in a situation where my life is (I believe) in danger, than I want everyone around me to protect me and I will do the same for them. This is not a new attitude in the US as it was true in WWI and WWII as well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: InOBU
Date: 02 May 03 - 12:36 PM

Hi Spaw... the above is why I am a pasifist. Having seen war up close, ya, the kill em all, IS the problem. War is just nations mugging each other and if it is wrong for the little guy who has justified anger and need it is wrong for the big collection of blokes as well. You look at WWII, everyone says, well, look at the death camps, we had to go to war. Well, not a single rail line was hit to slow down the murder of Gyspies and Jews, and no camps were the target of liberation, it just happened when we got to that place ... on the other hand, if we had put Rockafeller and the other bankers in jail who were working with Hittler right through the war, well, nazism could have been nipped in the bud. Llyods bank, Chase bank, Morgan Trust funded the building of nazi state and the nazi state corporation was kept intact ( I.G. Farbin) after the war. The war was not to save anyone.
SO, lets not get into the kill em all situations any more, eh? And for those of you who are going to bring up Sept. 11, don't bother, this war or Afganistan ain't about that any more than WWII was a war to save us poor Gypsies.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: InOBU
Date: 02 May 03 - 12:38 PM

BUT Pat AND Kev.... on the Kill em All topic, check out the story on Otway's new band post... someone finally got me peeved enough to tell as much of the history of band members as I can remember, and though I don't want to kill them all, damn but if it is not a good reason to fight a war!
Cheers the both of yous.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 03 - 01:19 PM

WEll, we've neither of use been in a war, spaw, so, like you, I'm guessing.

My understanding of how I'd want the soldiers on my left and right to be responding to a crisis wouldn't be like that, and if I can imagine myself into a commanding officer role, it's not how I'd want them responding either. I'd want people who could keep their head, and overcome the natural tendency to panic and blast off in all directions. Training is about learning how to do that.

"Kill 'em all" is natural, but it's stupid, and in a lot of circumstances it's likely to make it more likely you and your comrades get killed. It's an attitude that leads to Monday's massacre - an episode which is probably going to cost the lives of Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 May 03 - 01:55 PM

McGrath how right you are, the Army did learn a lesson after bloody Sunday, they set up the Catholics and left the Protestant Paramilitaries do some of their killing. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 May 03 - 02:11 PM

Kevin, the fact that you or I were never and t this point likely will never be soldiers makes us "inexpert" but also able to discuss the stuff as friends without either of us coming away with harsh feelings....which is why I did it! I would hope that the level and style of training for a soldier is such that he can be in control while also being under extreme duress. And once again, the problem with this whole damn thing is way up the ladder....and I think the Iraqis have some culpability too.....not because they should not want the US out, but because the organizers/leaders of these things should realize where they are likely to go. If you mess with a coiled rattler, you're likely to get bit.

LARRY.....Got a question.....Pacifist means what exactly? I view things through a lens of "is it worth killing for." The fact that I can think of a few things that would lead me to do so keeps me from any serious pacifistic view. I can't commit past a certain point. Do the Quakers have "sects" shall we say that take a differing view or is the pacifist belief in non-violence an integral part of the life? Is it violence or violence against my fellow man? I wonder this because Norman Morrison was I think widely revered for his actions and yet I can think of very few things less violent. It's bothered me for a long time actually and I thought, what the hell, I'll ask someone who knows.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 03 - 02:35 PM

Agreed, spaw, the problem is "way up the ladder". Essentially, what happened on Monday shouldn't have happened. Serious mistakes were made, and that's why there needs to be a proper independent investigation to identify what they were and to sort out exactly what happened.

Either the soldiers were behaving the way they are supposed to behave when turned heavy machine-gun fire on that crowd, and were acting in accordance with their "rules of engagement" - in which case the people who drew up and approved those "rules of engagement" need to be sorted out.

Or the soldiers were not behaving in accordance with the "rules of engagement", and what happened was a breakdown of discipline and training - and in that case, the people responsible for training procedures and so forth carry a heavy responsibility.

Cover-ups take place to save the necks of the people "way up the ladder", not to protect the people who actually do the shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 May 03 - 02:53 PM

Kevin, you really need to see that movie I mentioned....Brings in a who;e ;ot of this and is very troubling....especially since we have now seen the actual events. It's a good watch and you'll see what I mean about it. Coverup-a-plenty!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 May 03 - 04:59 PM

An item on Channell 4 news UK, referring to friendly fire, it has now been established that the US pilots were on drugs to keep them awake.
This was confirmed by a US spokseman.
Could be the Alamo man and his trigger happy pals were on drugs, though this time for kicks. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 May 03 - 05:29 PM

You know, there's a thread around here about reports that the miltary liked to pump their boys with speed-like derivatives, and some vets Norton 1, eg, were adamant that this was false.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 03 - 06:08 PM

And so it comes on, inexorably -

US troops attacked in Falluja - "Seven US soldiers have been wounded in a grenade attack on their headquarters in the tense Iraqi town of Falluja. Six received moderate injuries and a seventh light injuries when two grenades were lobbed over a wall of the compound by two unidentified men at about 0100 on Thursday.

Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style)
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 03 - 06:51 PM

Can't be. Relax. The Bush Baby sez the war's over.