BS: Help! New puppy!

Subject: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:41 AM

Well, Mister and I found a puppy. Actually, the puppy found us, which is usually how it goes.

Anyhow, we took him to the vet, who said he is in good health. He's only about 8 weeks old, which means he's still a little baby. He's alert and sweet-natured, until he gets to playing, when he becomes a Holy Terror! He thinks I am another dog, and wants to play-bite me. But puppy teeth are sharp, and I don't want him to keep this habit up.

The vet, and the books, say, Tell him No, and give him his chew toy. Well, I been doing that. The Monks of New Skete recommend the puppy shakedown - hold him by the scruff of the neck and give him a good shake. Mimics Mama Dog discipline. I tried that too. He thinks I'm playing.

Our older dog has been very good with him. She will play with him, and show teeth when he gets out of line. But he's a persistent little shit.

We do have a crate for him, and he's adjusting to that very well. He doesn't like to be in it so much, but he will go in it voluntarily. When he gets too excited we put him in the crate, and he will usually go to sleep.

I know, it takes time, and he's only lived with us a few days. It's been eight years since we had a little puppy in the house. Does anyone have any wisdom to share?

Cheers---

KFC

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: MMario
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:44 AM

Never have a new puppy and a new baby in the house at the same time. It's just too exhauting.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:52 AM

Well, I don't think we have to worry about that! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: MMario
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:53 AM

well - *grin*- you didn't say useful wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:06 AM

LOL! Keep up the sharp NO command with a hefty tap on the nose at the same time. Immediately STOP playing with him and ignore or crate him. It will take a while and you may never completely break him of it but is should get better.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Alba
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:09 AM

Id pick him up as the books advise Kim, I do think that the scruff of the neck pick up is ok as it reminds them of the mother and the way she picks them up but I'm not too hot on the shaking. (Little brain getting bumped about, but that's just my take on it). If you hold him that way and make eye contact till he looks away. You are letting him know who's in charge. It has to do with the dominant Dog they tell me (Alpha and all that) Make sure you do it till he looks away though and repeat the process till he gets the message. Then he may pay attention if you say NO! My Pup Harry responded to this well.
Sounds like a handful but Im sure he will turn out just fine cause he's loved:>)
Good Luck with the training.
A

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:10 AM

Oh yea, make the NO very loud to scare him. You could use OUCH instead of NO if you want to save NO for really really important stuff, like running into the street.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: beadie
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:20 AM

Kim:
When you make the NO loud, be certain to use the lowest possible note you can muster. Dogs discern authority from lower vocalizations.

You might try looking for a book by Patricia McConnell (co-host of "Calling All Pets" on NPR) called THE PUPPY PRIMER. Its a whole bunch of practical solutions to problems encountered by almost every owner of a new pup.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:35 AM

Show your teeth and mean it-- this puppy is treating you as a fellow pup and not as the Alpha Wolf you (or Mister) are... I guess that makes one of you Alpha and one of you Beta. Anticipate the transgression and issue the deep-chested man-pitched growl and snap BEFORE it occurs-- afterwards is too late.

Afterwards, if this has not been enough, quickly thrust your open hand at his throat and pin him to the ground without hurting him, holding him down and giving him the evil eye, snarling, till he looks away or submits with curled front legs and a relaxed belly. Then IMMEDIATELY remove the hand. Repeat as needed.

This will not only curb the specific behavior but establish his place in the family pack order and hopefully prevent other bad behaviors from even starting. Seems he was born with an internal setting that will seek a higher place in that order than is good for you, and for him.

Our local animal control and shelter manager showed me how to estimate a puppy's inborn pack-order setting-- give them a nice businesslike patting, then scoot them onto the ground on their backs. The ones who will not tolerate this in good humor are going to be trouble in a household, inviting a constant battle over control and a tough hand in training. The ones who not only go down but stay down after you let go, those are the submissive ones who are willing to take a low pack order placement and who will be loyal and need no fear-based training because they already have a high level of dread and respond better to praise and reassurance.

In between is every other pack-order setting, including the happy-camper playfulness that is exasperating but not usually dangerous-- the dog who becomes the official fool or trickster in the pack, restoring good humor when the big bad control-oriented males have fought and frightened everyone in the pack.

Very few dogs ever are capable of thinking like a human, or seeming to-- it's much simpler for a human to think like a dog and communicate in their language.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:37 AM

Kim, you are quite right on the time thing and a pup that age will take a bit of time to learn but you are on the right track. Find something that he does dislike, be it the shake, a swat across the bridge of the nose, or perhaps a squirt in the face with a water bottle. He must know there is a consequence that he dislikes. Always accompany the action with the same verbal command for whatever action you are trying to correct. Also, get to using a "Command Voice" for any commands given as he learns positive things as well. They associate a specific sound and tone with a required action.

All of these establish you as the alpha dog and be sure Mister does the same. The biggest mistake made by most is to be inconsistent with giving commands.....using different words or a different voice. Then find the thing they hate most and use it as consequence. Before anyone jumps in here and says I'm abusing dogs, I have two well trained and extremely loving Weimaraners, work with Weim Rescue, am a member of the WCA, and the other place on the net I hang out the most is a WEim Forum. THe advice I am giving is pretty much accepted by trainers and doggie folks everywhere. Don't beat your dog but find what it is they dislike. Some dogs just hate a loud voice and that is all that is required. If that doesn't work, stick with the "Command Voice" and find something....a rap or tap, a blow of air in the face, a squirt of water....something mild will do the trick, just find the thing.

ALSO....The Monks of Skete book is the generally agreed by an awful lot of doggie people to be the best thing ever written on training and should be required reading for any owner.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: MMario
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:38 AM

woof!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:52 AM

Another good book is The Invisible Leash written by a woman vet whose name I cannot remember at the moment. She says you want to catch their attention when misbehaving and suggests putting a couple of pennies in an aluminium soda can, then tape over the opening. When they get out of hand, shake it at them and use your voice command. IF he gets to tearing around and really not listening, she says you can even toss it at their hind legs, as it is so light-weight it will not harm them and really does get their attention. The main thing is to get their attention to disrupt the bad behaviour.

She also advocates, in some instances, turning an undesirable trait into something they do on cue, such as barking. I did this with our border collie who was very grumbly when it was not needed, i.e. no intruders, etc. By teaching him to "Grumble!" on cue, I gained control, so that 1) he gets rewarded for doing it when told to, with a pat on the head and praise and 2) I have more control over him when there is a reason for him to do it on his own.

It really is a good book. Short, practical chapters; good quick reference.

kat

BTW, what kind is he and what did you name him? Good luck!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:54 AM

Thanks everybody! I have discovered he doesn't like to have keys shaken in front of his nose... it's just I don't always have keys handy! Maybe I can find some old ones that don't go to anything and use that.

It never ceases to amaze me how different each dog is. Zenith was stubborn - it was partly a breed characteristic, and partly because she didn't have the proper socialization early on (she was 4 months old when we got her and we had to work really hard). Belle was easy. Sampson is a trial but he seems to be pretty bright - already fusses to get out of the crate when he has to go pee. But everything is Playtime to him.

Ah, kids. Always an adventure. When I have time I will put some pictures of him on my website. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:56 AM

Kat - the vet says Sampson is probably a Lab/German Shepherd mix, and indeed he does have webbed toes. And that squarish Lab head. Probably explains why he wants to chew on everything!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:08 AM

Haha...you paint quite a picture of him, Kim, would love to see some baby pix!

Keys, yes! That's the other thing I meant to mention which makes a *big noise* they might not like! If you find some old ones, you could get really artful, design a necklace and hang them around your neck for 24/7 access.**bg** I used to have several soda cans with pennies located in strategic places around the house.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: UB Ed
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:36 AM

Kim, ditto all of the above but the "grab him by the throat" as well as shaking advice.

As you are probably aware, "mouthing" is another form of doggie interaction and there is a distinct difference between playful nipping and a focused bite.

We have Golden Retreivers; with a new pup and their insistence on play we begin training heel, sit, stay and come on the lead for a 15 minute playtime before each puppy meal. And you can start now. Its a game, he gets fed and learns his manners (a must in what will obviously be a big dog!).

Have fun! You need to post pics.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:14 PM

We have already started him on the leash, and with basic commands. He seems to understand Sit, although it may be just a coinkydink; and he seems like he's catching on to petting-stops-when-I-bite. He has done very well on the leash so far because he wants to follow the other dog!

I don't think he's actually biting so much as he is just putting his mouth on me. But it hurts!

He tries to chase the kitty, too, but kitty hisses at him, and gets in a high place. Thumper has been remarkably tolerant for an elderly cat; then again, he's had at least one dog around all his life.

We tried the pennies in the soda can with dear departed Zenith. Didn't faze her a bit. She responded better to the wittholding of attention.

I'm off in search of lockless keys. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:16 PM

I've had some biggish dogs, and was advised that an appropriate punishment for pups was to put the hand under the dog's muzzle and move the dog's head swiftly (but GENTLY) upwards. Just a little bit so the angle of the dog's muzzle is elevated maybe 30 degrees. Then immediately take your hand away. Apparantly its a control thing - it shows you're in charge & they are not. It also has the virtue that the dog finds it unpleasant, but it does not hurt them at all.
It seemed to work on most occasions - but sometimes a sharp rap across the top of the muzzle was needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Giac
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:18 PM

Ooooo! A PUPPY! Give him a kiss from me.

I had a yellow lab many years ago, who chewed up EVERYTHING. My maple bedstead still has his little teeth marks on it, as do some books. I was bemoaning the chewing to a friend who noted that he had a yellow lab once who didn't chew their stuff, but would bring stuff home from neighboring houses.

"One day," he said, "he brought home a muffler from a '57 Mercury and buried it in the back yard. We often wondered what he did with the rest of the car."

Sorry, I can't speak to discipline as such, because my method is usually, "Oh, sweetie, please don't do that!" I admire people who can instill good behavior in their pets. Good luck!

**Grin**

~;o) Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: DougR
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:27 PM

Kim: Sorcha's advice is good. We recently got a minature white Schnauzer who was the same age when we got her. It is working on her.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: nutty
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:56 PM

Kim .... Don't forget to reward him when he stops biting - even if it's just saying "Good Dog"

It's so easy to get into the habit of concentrating on punishing the bad behaviour and forgetting to reward the good.

This is where the differing voice tones really count ..... a high voice mean "play with me" or "what a good boy" whereas a low tone means "NO" or "BE CAREFUL".

This makes disciplining difficult for many women who's tone of voice tends to rise when they are under stress.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:04 PM

Oh, believe me, he gets plenty of rewards when he's good! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:25 PM

A lab/shepard is a great mix! Protective but friendly -- our family dog as a youngun' was this mix and he was amazing with us kids while still protecting the family. A few other dogs I've met with this mix have had the same personality.

Your new baby sounds like he's very smart, but is also fairly aggressive and will want to be dominant; which is in line with my experiences with this cross. Dominance training, which any number of books will cover, now will stand you in good stead later. Different dogs will respond better to different methods. I aquired a large, year old Belgian Shepard who had been on the street from about 6-12 months of age who had dominance problems and no people skills. I could whack him all day long with no effect. Eventually the dominance training paid off and I established myself on the top of the pack, although the only thing he would respond to was if I growled and acted like an alpha dog, and I became very good at knocking him over like another dog by tripping him. (Heaven help you if you don't manage to trip them the first time, because the next time they are ready for it and it's darn near impossible.) It all worked beautifully, for HIM, even if I did get some odd looks from people :) My rommate never did any of the exercises, and therefore never established his dominance, and this dog would simply ignore his commands.

I would never strike a dog with your hand when he can see it coming, because they may become hand shy. Nor a newspaper, if you want him to train him run down to the end of driveway and get your newspaper for you :) Anything loud and scary but relatively harmless will work.

Have fun with your new puppy! Ah, memories... the peeing in the floor, the chewed up furniture legs... all worth it when they lick your face!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM

Okay, I put up some pictures:

Kim C's Website

Go to the Photos page. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:22 PM

Cute pup and you are probably right about the Lab and GSD mix.


I also was hoping to find a picture of your fiddle tatoo. You need to put one up, a nice full moon shot preferably......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Alba
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM

He is Lovely Kim. Such a big name for a wee guy but hey! Im sure he will grow into it judging by the size of his paws LOL
Wow what's with the orbs in the photo...enough of them isn't there!! Lovely dress by the way.
Thank you for sharing Sampson with us:>)
A

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM

What a doll! And a monster-to-be, unless I miss my guess.

I've had the get-a-puppy hankering lately, even though I know I really can't with a condo and a cat that doesn't tolerate anything on more than two legs. If I *DID* get one, it'd probably be a shepard of some sort of a Weimer -- or a mix of the two. I love that "ready for anything" personality.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM

They are ALL monsters, though, aren't they? :-)

I don't know what's with the orbs - that's a whole other story. Mister took 3 photos in a row that night, and the orbs were all in the 3rd one. All in the same room, with me standing in the same place. Anyway Mister thinks our house is haunted - if that's so, they're all friendly. (and thanks for your compliment on the dress - I made it myself)

Spaw, don't count on that. I don't think Mister would appreciate me flashing my fiddle bum on the Internet. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:02 PM

Awwwwww. I love that lil pup!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:27 PM

Awww, I gots the Puppy Fever too, but can't have any more right now. Want a Cardigan Corgi realllll bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Dave Swan
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:07 PM

Those are the pups with the buttons up the front, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:16 PM

I like Corgis, too. Smary and sassy, but they're a wee bit high strung for me. Maybe when I retire and have time to indulge their wants and needs... like their very own flock of sheep.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:25 PM

One of these days, I want a pair of Newfoundlands named Lewis & Clark, & I want to teach them to pull a goat cart. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:30 PM

One of these days someone is gonna smeck that Dave Swan right up along the haid!! LOL!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:17 PM

I think it's probably already happened but he's a slow learner....which is something I really admire in the guy.

Kim, you can just send it to me privately and I wouldn't share it with anyone......well maybe a couple of peole.....and now that I think of it a few more.........no more than say a hundred or so........or a couple hundred........Hmmmmm.....Maybe a website....


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Ely
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:23 PM

I'm not in favor of smacking dogs, either. I work for a vet and have been snapped at by plenty of hand-shy dogs. Don't crate puppies as punishment--you don't want him to end up like my friend's dog who howls constantly when she's crated because my friend missed the point and only puts her in there when she's too rowdy. (I'm all for crate-training, though--my dog sleeps in one because she likes to browse through the garbage at night; but I can also put her in there if we have small, dog-shy kids over, and she never freaks out at the vet's or the kennel because she knows she's not being punished.)

If he bites too hard, yell (not at him, but "in pain") and stop playing. Walk away, taking all toys with you--giving him a chew toy is "rewarding" him. He needs to learn that if he bites too hard, the fun is over. Eight weeks old is pretty young so it might take him a bit to get the picture.

If dominance becomes an issue, another friend of mine cured his German shepherd by locking the dog in the bathroom for a few hours when it got too aggressive (the idea being that the dog can't be an alpha if he has no pack). It works better for some breeds than others--I grew up with American Eskimos and they HATE being isolated.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:48 AM

The simple trick that my granddaddy taught me, for pups and kittens that like to bite is sort of based on the premise that in the litter they'll learn what's acceptable play and what's not permissible because the others in the litter bite back.

The one thing that's always handy when the critter starts to chaw on you is the hand he's gnawing on. It's pretty easy to slide a finger into his mouth just enough to drag a little of his lip over the top of his teeth, and then you just squeeze fairly firmly. Then, if he wants to bite you, he has to bite himself first. Say NO! or OW! while you do it.

Don't squeeze harder than you have to, because you're sending a message, not trying to hurt him. Most pups or kittens will "freeze" pretty quickly, or try to get away; and as soon as he does, you say NO! or OW! (again) just before you let go. Then, unless he jumps right back to it, reassure him that he's still your favorite beast.

I've never had any of a dozen or so pups or kittens that took more than about 3 days to get the message, and with some, once or twice is enough; although "backsliding" may occur after a week or so in a recalcitrant one. And you do need other methods for the pup that wants to eat the TV remote (one of my pups ate 3) or other "inanimate" objects like the legs on the piano that can't bite back.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:03 AM

He is a cutie! Thanks for getting the pix up.

I agree with Ely about not hitting, not even little smacks. I think it can make an insecure dog moe aggressive and any dog head-shy. I also agree about the crate. Our Merls did have time out in his, but it didn't come off as punishment in that he liked being in there. It makes them feel secure so that they don't get overwhelmed at having to *protect* too much territory at once. He still sleeps in his, puts himself to bed and it has the advantage of being the one place he doesn't have to share with the cats!:-)

Matched Newfies sounds lovely!! I'll never forget a story I read about one of them rescuing a little neighbour girl from the shoreline in a blizzard. No one knew where she was; she wasn't conscious; dog found here and dragged her home. If I remember right it was about a mile. Great story!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:18 AM

I don't like to smack, either. I don't want them to be afraid of me.

Sampson goes in the crate mostly so he can be where we can watch him! For overnight we put the crate in the laundry room, and leave the crate door open so he can go in and out at will. And he does go in there to sleep and chew on his toys. We decided we will use the bathroom as the Time-Out room.

I am collecting empty soda cans today. Going to try that pennies-in-the-can thing with him. He seems to not care for loud, sudden noises.

He has learned to Sit pretty quickly, and now we are working on Down. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Gypsy
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:17 PM

Kim, there is a far simpler solution.........bitter apple. Spray your hands with that (and use a fork for ANYTHING you eat for a while) and let him bite you. Will quickly learn that it is a nasty thing to do. You can do the same thing with anything strong tasting that a dog doesn't like. With that mix, you will have a pretty smart, mellow dog. I wouldn't try this with a terrier type, but a lab type, yes. Not big on puppy shaking.......can make them really head shy. Conversly, teach puppy that rough playing is only appropriate with heavy garden gloves. We've done that one too, to the point where dog would bring the gloves to us. But bear in mind, this is a baby, and don't sweat a huge amount of training at this point. You'll have a lot more fun if you just enjoy each stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: fiddler
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:24 PM

My hound uses her mouth in play!

Holds hands right in it but rarely too hard.

Did this by forging the hand in to the mouth when she was play biting so she couldn't bite hard and if she did use the Sorcha Technique.

What make is it - I like Heinz or Welsh (border) collies!

Patience yes discipline yes and more than with children absolute complete and utter regularity and standardisation in actions and use of words and symbols otherwise the poor little thing will never learn - enjoy - This is my 6th collie and I loved them all!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM

Sampson is definitely a Heinz. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 06:33 PM

My morning started with an almost teary office manager. Her Jack Russell had been thrown out of doggie day care on his first day...actually wihin his first ten minutes. He bit (not hard) four other dogs and the day care owner. Poor Amanda observed that the owner had barely given him a chance. At that, I and a few others laughed out loud. Wonder how many he had to bite to convince Amanda?

Rudy is a handfull. A bundle of energy. It took him a while to get used to us. He visits the office regularly. At first he would only tolerate women and them only at a distance. His initial owners scared the crap out of him.

So...be firm but kind. Love the little darling. Enjoy him. I have nothing else to offer. My cats run the place here. Someday I expect to be crated for misbehaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: MMario
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 08:02 PM

Samson is cute, and yes, he certainly seems to know it!

forget the orbs in the picture though, who's the women spinning yarn?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:32 PM

My cats run the place here. Someday I expect to be crated for misbehaving.

So that's why I keep getting all those spams from PetSmart... the cat ordered me a crate for not being home enough lately!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 11:51 PM

First you should decide how many people you have to feed. Streching one small puppy for an entire dinner party can be tough. TRy a crockpot with some beef stock, finely diced shallots and fresh rosemary, Simmer awhile then add some large chunk potatoes and carrots. A bit of celery leaves and all. Many people don't use the leaves but they can just make a fine puppy stew just exceptional. just as the whole pot begins to roll and boil reduce to a very low flame and add and cook away about a third of the liquid. then add 1 and 1/2 cups of dry, red wine. Grind in some fresh pepper corns then add the puppy. Scotty or other small terrier, feeds four. Border collie feeds 6 to 8. For a large gathering a hound is good. Be sure to have a Yorkshire Pudding as a side dish.

For this and other great recipes of this type look for my cook book
"How to Wok Your Dog" at Barnes and Noble or Amazon.Com

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 03 - 12:32 AM

Don, that's shameful!! LOL!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 03 - 01:20 AM

Baaad, Don! Baaad!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: NicoleC
Date: 01 May 03 - 01:32 AM

I am NOT putting that one in the Mudcat cookbook!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! New puppy!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 03 - 08:29 AM

OK Nicole,

Substitute cat if you must but besure and use a German with a full, fruity flavor, but still on the dryside. After all, Cat is the other white meat.

Don