3 songs.Why these titles?

Subject: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:45 AM

Titles are usually derived from the song subject, or the first or most prominent line of the first line of the first verse or chorus.
These 3 well known songs are known by a snatch of text buried deep in the song or chorus. You may know others.
The first is about a soldier's seduction of a girl who lives with her mother. In one verse he asks her age. It could stand without this verse, but her reply gives the title Seventeen Come Sunday
In this song, many lines could provide a title, so why in particular She Moved Through The Fair
?
Finally, in this song I suspect the line in the chorus has been chosen for the erotic imagery of lifting her petticoat Easy And Slow
Any other reasons for these choices?
Any other examples?
Keith.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:51 AM

Not familiar with the others you mention, but what other titles would you suggest for She move through the fair?

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:55 AM

It could be known as My Young Love Said To Me, or Like A swan in the Evening, or It Will Not Be Long Love.
This is the odd one out though since it is not trad and an author may call it what he likes.
Keith.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 May 03 - 07:05 AM

This can be a problem. One of my songs, I call 'Smile in your Sleep' as it occurs in the last line of every chorus except the last where I switched it to 'Don't cry in your Sleep'. The chorus, however, begins with 'Hush, Hush' and so the song has been recorded under all three titles! What should I have done?
Jim McLean

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 May 03 - 07:30 AM

The latter two were probably given their names by the person who wrote them. If they were by trad or anon, they probably would have different, more obvious titles.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 05 May 03 - 07:42 AM

Why is anything the way it is? Trad songs often got named by the collector, the singer often didn't have a song title, just an identifier ("the one about the soldier and the girl"). Unlike the singer, the collector may have had dozens of songs about soldiers seducing young girls, and needed to go deeper into the song for a distinctive label. That's all a song title is - a label, for reference purposes. The song is what matters, whatever you call it.

Andrew

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 May 03 - 11:35 AM

I first noticed song titles that appeared nowhere in the lyrics among Bob Dylan songs, starting at about the same time as the electric-guitar controversy, e.g., "Love - Zero / No Limit," "Positively Fourth Street," "It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a Train to Cry," etc.

In some cases (like the above-cited three), I could see how the titles were appropriate; in other cases, I didn't understand the titles and felt vaguely offended.

As in so many other situations with Mr. Bobby, it looks like he took a long-standing feature of traditional folk music and reinterpreted it on his own terms.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 03 - 11:55 AM

Authors can try to hold a song to a title they've chosen, but they don't have too much success. Eric Bogle has for years been trying to get people to use his title "No Man's Land" for his song that people more normally refer to as "The Green Field of France" or "Young Willie McBride." An uphill struggle and one he'll never win.

I think people just pick a memorable phrase, which doesn't appear in other songs. "Seventeen Come Sunday" indicates which song it is - "As I rose up one May morning" would leave it open. So would "My Young Love Said to Me", very likely.

Being recorded by a well known singer can fix a title - but not always. I've know "The Lakes of Pontchartrain" requiested as "That song with the alligators".

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Nerd
Date: 05 May 03 - 12:15 PM

As I understood it, "She Moved Through the Fair" was not written by the usually cited author, Padraic Colum. It was adapted by him from a traditional song. Traditional versions are often given other titles; the Sam Henry collection, for example, calls it "Our Wedding Day." So the application of the common title is probably a recent phenomenon, helped by Colum's adaptation.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 03 - 03:01 PM

I was going to mention No Man's Land. As with Jim McLean's song above, someone recorded it as The Green Fields Of France (but then why that bit of that line?) There already existed a song Aurthur McBride so maybe that is why William's name was not used.
Keith.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: toadfrog
Date: 06 May 03 - 01:59 AM

As I understand it, "Seventeen Come Sunday" is one of perhaps 17 names given to "The Lady and the Soldier" or "The Soldier and the Lady," or "How Old are You My Pretty Little Miss," etc. My mother used to sing a version called "Deutscher, Deutscher, Will You Marry Me." Old songs often have a different name in every village. Thus defeating logical taxonomy.

Or is there a different song by that name?

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 06 May 03 - 06:57 AM

And of course, if you give it a new title, you have a much better chance of getting the copyright in your own name.

I must be getting evil-minded in my old age.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 May 03 - 09:00 AM

Happens to pop-songs too. We all call it "Fly me to the moon", but the author called it "In other words".

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 07 May 03 - 03:37 AM

G'day Hrothgar,

Well, you're not getting any more "evil-minded" in your old age - especially in regard to "Green Fields of France" ... the buggers had the gall to say they had " ... talked it over with Eric Bogle and he agreed they now owned the song ..."!

Wee Eric - a canny Scots accountant ... they should take more water with it!

Regards

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 09:56 AM

I have just thought of another one.
Martinmas Time
The lore relating to this day (Halloween) seems to have no bearing on the story, and seems quite incidental.
Salt tear in her eye O
Keith.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Bernard
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 11:07 AM

'Whiskey in the Jar' is also known as 'Kilgarry Mountain'...

'The Rout of the Blues' is sometimes called 'Scarborough Sands' because one version mentions Scarborough Sands in the first line, though the version I learned had 'Salisbury Plain'...

People often have their own pet name for a song, which is often the first line of the first verse, the chorus or refrain, but, as others have suggested, could be anything at all!!

Then, of course, we have names of tunes... how on earth did anyone come up with 'Pull out the knife and stick it in again'...??!!

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 12:06 PM

Bernard. I have a book of tunes composed by L.E. McCullough. Some of the titles:
A Snake is a Chiropractor's Dream
How Much Do Those Weigh
Leroy the Barbarian
Barking Up the Wrong Tree
Hoosiers in Heat
My Guardian Angel is a Space Cadet
Hammocks go Anywhere
Up to Your Neck in Newts

I bought it because of the titles, but it turns out the tunes are REALLY good! Proof: Birds Sleep Safer on Bellerock Street Tonight(hornpipe) and Goat Gods & Bean Dip(waltz)

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 10:12 PM

My daughter's first song request was "Whale Make Strike" which was readily recognizable as "The Greenland Whale Fisheries," but my son's request for what I learned as a kid as a Russian Lullaby baffled my mother who was planning to sing him to sleep one night. The song goes, in English,
"Bed is too small for my tiredness;
Give me a hilltop with trees.
Tuck a cloud up under my chin.
Lord, blow the moon out, please.
Rock me to sleep in a cradle of green,
Sing me a lullaby, leaves.
Tuck a cloud up under my chin.
Lord, blow the moon out, please."
(And by the way if anyone knows any more about it, I would like to hear; it is in a minor key, unusual for a lullaby.) My three year old son asked his grandmother to sing, "I want to lie down in a flower bed."

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 01:26 AM

In the case of Irish songs,you are overlooking the important role of the Enigmatic Tune-names Board, which meets quarterly and passes on proposed names for new tunes.

The Board is the hidden force behind "She Moved Through the Fair" as well as "Upstairs in the Tent," "Whistle and She'll Come to You" "Dennis Don't Be Threatening" and "All Covered with Moss."

I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 06:00 AM

Pat Cooksey wrote in the forum recently that his song 'Paddy and the Barrel' has been RECORDED under about 20 aliases since he wrote it back in the 70's.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 10:27 AM

One impotant reason is implied by Celtaddict, I think. You just up and sing a song to your kith or kin without any announcement of the title or background. Three weeks later the kith or kin (or my spouse) says Hey, sing that song again. Huh? you say. You know, the one about the man. Huh? you say --- what man?

Oh, you know, the man with the backpack. So you sing Child #279 (appendix). It now becomes permanently entitled among all who know you as "The Man with the Backpack."

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 11:28 AM

Which, as I may tiresomely point out, is why DigiTrad is set up to search for a characteristic word or phrase or several words or phrases.
Titles, as I may have once remarked, are a snare and a delusion.

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 05:14 PM

So far I have seen the following titles for my song, The Massacre of Glencoe, The Ballad of Glencoe, The Battle of Glencoe, The Rape of Glencoe, The Snows of Glencoe, The House of MacDonald and just plain Glencoe.
If anybody knows of any others, I'd be very grateful!
Slainte,
Jim Mclean

Subject: RE: 3 songs.Why these titles?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 05:23 PM

Celtaddict - I know that one as a Girl Scout song. I don't think I have seen any more of it, but I'll look around. Other girl scouts - look thru any GS refences you have.