BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:16 PM

1.92 dollars to the pound today !
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:44 AM

'If Les really thinks the world (or even Russia) is a better place since the collapse of the Soviet republics, he is not living on the same planet as me'

I know it doesn't really matter but I didn't say or imply any such thing.

This thread is about GG who thought the SU was a good thing when almost nobody else did.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:17 AM

All good stuff from McGrath, starting with the one on 4 Dec (7.25pm) and not excluding the last sentence there.

If Les really thinks the world (or even Russia) is a better place since the collapse of the Soviet republics, he is not living on the same planet as me. Certainly conditions in the former GDR are actually a whole lot worse for many of the population there. As McG has indicated, the communist experiment was carried out in the face of hostility driven by vested capitalist instincts, and any efforts to give socialism the human face its founding fathers had intended were particular feared, on the basis that they just might work.

Greg, I have said many things I would cringe to recall now, never mind having them thrown back at me endlessly via tv screens and newspapers. That New Labour stalwart David Blunkett is no doubt regretting even now some incautious remarks he made about his cabinet colleagues. From 1924 until WW1, and most particularly up to 1932, senior British politicians including Winston Churchill when Chancellor of the Exchequer, paid obeisance to Mussolini in much the same lnaguage as as Galloway used with Saddam.

Sometimes individual judgment may be unsettled by the grandeur of the moment. Remember Kinnock at Sheffield Arena, or that concession-speech scream by Howard Dean? Churchill admitted that no matter how much he resolved not to do so, he always found himself standing up when Stalin came into the room at Potsdam.

Galloway is on record as deeply regretting his huge blunder. Like Ake said, he has an Iraqi wife. And he has spent many years trying to alleviate Iraqi suffering, not least when Iraq was an unfashionable cause, on the receiving end of a vicious and undiscriminating sanctions regime.

The Telegraph behaviour was reprehensible and rightly they are going to pay heavily - about £1,500,000 ($15,000,000,000).

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:42 AM

When I lived in Richmond Surrey back in the 60s, there was a local pub where there was always fights, and all sorts of trouble. When I asked a local policeman of my acqaintance why they didn't try to get it closed down he said, "At least we know where all the troublemakers are as long as it remains open" This I feel is how the western powers must be feeling about the demise of the Soviet Union.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:54 PM

The collapse of the Soviet Union has indeed had some pretty terrible consequences, most especially for many (most?) of the people living there. Poverty, violence, corruption, exploitataion, economic devastation, civil war - and if the nuclear technology falls into the wrong hands, which it easily could, the consequences for us all could indeed be catastrophic.

It is in many ways tragic that there could not have been a successful reform of the USSR along the lines of Gorbachev's dreams of perestroika and glasnost, aimed at turning the country into one with a social democratic system, more analogous to that which has been developed in many parts of Europe.

During the Cold War period, western politicians were always saying how their quarrel with the Soviet Union was because it was a repressive regime. When the Prague Spring took place in Czechoslovakia, and then crushed, it was widely seen as a pity that "Socialism with a Human Face" was aborted by outside agents.

But when Socialism with a Human Face was on the agenda a generation later, the efforts of the West were consistently directed towards destroying it. Any kind of aid or investment or assistance had to be linked towards establishing a predatory capitalist model of society, which in practice meant transferring the wealth of society to robber barions and mafiosi.

Democracy? That wasn't what it was about at all, it was about making money. And that is why China, where they did it the other way round and kept the all-powerful Party and State, but welcomed in the capitalists, have had such an easy ride of it.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:44 PM

wld I might take your point if I measured progress and the political health of our society in purely financial terms.
The move towards a two - tier society and a police state, with all the damage to human rights and personal freedom that it will bring, disturbs me just as much as Maggies handywork.

I resent your inference ..."brainless approach to politics", and would contend that anyone who imagines the capitalist system will somehow evolve into a user friendly means of running the world, is living in Disneyland.

I dont consider myself "middle class", as i'v worked by the strength of my arm and the sweat of my brow all my life,and continue to do so, while others sit on their fat arses on early retirement.

The anti war arguement was always one of common sense over ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:56 PM

I don't think having rich pals is a prerogative of the Tories Akenaton. Also the rentamob that shouted Jim Callaghan down were either trade union members, or people paid by trade union organisers to demonstrate. In so doing they sowed fear into the hearts of most Englishmen no matter what class [a designation I despise], thus ensuring that Maggie got elected. So they did sort of bring it on themselves.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:40 PM

Thank you Wolfgang you have revealed GG.

I am with the drummer. We knocked on doors for 20 years and people said no.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:40 PM

If you are asking did I support the Soviet Union, yes I did. Yes, I did support the Soviet Union, and I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life. If there was a Soviet Union today, we would not be having this conversation about plunging into a new war in the Middle East, and the US would not be rampaging around the globe. (GG in a Guardian interview)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:32 PM

I suppose if you're really middle class - its all a bit of a game. If the Thatcher years never touched you closing down your local industry and bringing a slew of social problems to your community.

Its all a bit of a laugh. biting Tony Blair on the balls.

Politics are about choices. Most of us who aren't insulated from the cold economic winds that blow are better off than we would be with Michael Howard slyly sorting out a few goodies for his rich pals at every verse ending.

Its the same kind of brainless approach to politics that stopped Callaghan from making any election speeches in 1979, by rentamob shouting him down - and got Thatcher installed. And that was okay, cos it brought the revolution closer....brilliant!

Blair or Howard those are the choices. grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:07 PM

Sorry poor memory, but was GG once an appolgist for the Soviet Empire and very sad when it collapsed?

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:31 PM

Hi Greg ....What's happened to that famous logic.
If George Galloway hoped to have any influence over the actions of the Saddam regime, these hopes would hardly be realised by spitting in his eye and calling him a murderous despot.
Galloway has an Iraqi wife and Im sure he sympathises with the plight of the Iraqi people.

I take McGraths' view that he was percieved as an easy target by the pro- war press and the slimy Blair government.

Nice to see George jump up and bite them in the balls.

When 100,000 Scots marched through Glasgow against the war, Galloway stood to address them, while the representatives of the "peoples party" went into hiding in the SSEC.

The real "self servers" are those who took personal ambition before common sense....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:39 PM

McGrath seems to think I was a bit over the top, using the term "slobbering adulation" for Galloway's attitude to Saddam Hussein. This is apparently he because he claims one of his remarks popularyly supposed to be addressed to Saddam Hussein was in fact addressed to the Iraqi people. Well, maybe, though George Galloway was staring at Saddam at the time, with the expresssion of Lady Di fluttering at a TV camera. But actually, I was not thinking of that one remark. I have spent the last five years in close company with a wide variety of Iraqi refugees, all of whom left Iraq due to Saddam's activities. So I have had a lot of time to consider the nuances of Iraqi politics, and heard a lot about it from all angles. Anfd I have a naturally enquiring mind, so I have read a lot about the subject, so have therfore heard a great deal about the activities of the saintly socialist Mr Galloway.
    I'm a great admirer of McGrath from Harlow, so I will, therefore, tihdraw the phrase "slobbering adulation". I will replace it with "George Galloway brown-nosing Saddam Hussein, wetting himself with excitement the while".

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 01:02 PM

And George certainly doesn't rank as highly as most politicians...

Especially The Blessed Tony...

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:57 PM

Well....As the Editor of The Telegraph says,   "Always look on the bright side of life"

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:22 AM

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:10 PM

There's a tendency to believe what we are told when we are told it often enough and loud enough.

I'm rather reminded of the way our leaders have made so much of the idea that they weren't naive to believe in the WMDs, because "everyone else" agreed they were there. (Believing what they had been told by the guys with the biggest "intelligence" operation on the planet, who clearly had to know what they were talking about so confidently...)

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 10:06 AM

wld...A very good way to collect a large number of enemies, is to "noise up" the establishment.

Galloway must be an ally of all who see the system for what it is.

Personally I suppose he's a raging ego-maniac, but who cares as long as he gives the new labour machine plenty of grief...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:02 PM

what you don't admit that the vast majority of people posting seem to be expressing the opinion he's a bit of a plonker. Its just arithmetic.

i've never met the guy. hold no animosity to him. But I think I'd hesitate to lend him anything - somebody with this number of enemies got them somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:24 PM

Dont agree wld,

Im just not prepared to bet he'll win Crufts Supreme Champion...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:29 AM

Mr Happy you're outvoted. There seems to be a bit of a general consensus that the gentleman in question is something of a dirty dog.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:03 AM

It probably seems to be trivial but considering the comments made by some people about the nuances of language & how it's used I'm rather saddened by the sloppy spelling & use of punctuation marks seen in this debate.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 07:25 PM

Galloway has constantly been hammered (eg "slobbering adulation")for that quote, spoken to Saddam "I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability." He has always said that "your" there referred not to Saddam but to the Iraqi people. Given the way the English language works, that is a perfectly consistent way of interpreting those words. And I'd think it's also much more in line with the way politicians do generally go on.

Of course, if only we still used a separate second person singular, that kind of ambiguity wouldn't arise. The pity is that apparently Galloway wasn't speaking Arabic at the time, because I gather, Arabic does retain that distinction.

Clearly George Galloway is an arrogant man, with an enormous admiration for himself, but then that's pretty standard for Alpha Male politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:43 PM

Raedwulf..Good to hear from you.

All politicians are by nature self serving, and I doubt George is any exception.
But he is a very sharp thorn in flesh of "new labour",and as such will have my support.
I long ago lost any naive notions about sincere politicians.

Sincerity and plain speaking are looked upon as a severe handicap by todays politicians of all shades.

"Giok" forecasts Georges' imminent political demise, but I dont think that will be the case as George will attempt to give a voice to the UKs large Muslin community ensuring his ability to inflict maximun pain on crusader Tony.

Whether this will be good for race relations in UK remains to be seen

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:26 PM

I disagree, Ake. GG has, in my opinion, always been one of the most vainglorious & self-serving of politicians we've had to suffer. I reckon he would speak in favour of Jack The Ripper, Fred West, & Peter Sutcliffe, if he thought it would buy him a vote!

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:06 PM

Regardless of his relationship with the Saddam regime , George was not smeared because of any ties, imagined or other wise,to the Iraqi government.

He was smeared by our glorious "democratic " government and media, because of his stance as a leader of the anti-war movement.
A war that most intelligent people knew right from the beginning,would end in the disaster we now see.

I dont wish to comment on Georges' motives or character, as I have no way of determining them, but I know that any victoy for George is a victory for us all ,against the war mongerings bastards who rule us, and massacre the innocents in our name....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 05:22 AM

Some say that GG is infatuated with himself, but that's not true. Infatuation is just a passing fancy, and with George it's the real thing, he's in love with himself. I didn't think that the story was true it was just too convenient for words finding that documentary evidence, I smell the British secret service's hand in that. However what hasn't changed is the fact that GG is a plonker, and was a liability as a constituency MP, the people of the Kelvin area are well rid of him. As for being 'vindicated' in court, I think you'll find he won a libel case and in no way was he exonerated from his sycophancy toward Saddam, or his incitement of British soldiers to mutiny. At least this will mean the end of GG as a public figure, and he will now sink into the obscurity he so richly deserves.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:59 AM

Well, I have never understood the fellow. I could readily understand anyone expressing slobbering adulation for Saddam Hussein if paid to(or if forced to,like the poor inhabitants of Iraq). Quite what George Galloway's reasons were is a subject I find very difficult to get my head round.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 08:55 PM

Subject: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Mr Happy - PM
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:15 PM

i think he's a hero for democracy, freedom of speech, enemy of hypocrisy.

He's just been suspended from the new Labour Partly

what think you?

He's recently been vindicated in court- What think you now?

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 May 03 - 01:21 PM

If misery loves company, does that mean that the company loves misery?? Discuss.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Hillheader
Date: 11 May 03 - 11:52 AM

Misery

Many of the BRITISH service personnel in Iraq are Scottish (not Scotch - that applies to whisky tomatoes and eggs)and some of them died. Their relatives would be heartened to hear them being considered the same of George Galloway.

Gareth

I think that emphasises my point. Everyone thinks George speaks for Saddam - I would like to hear him speak for his constituents.

Davebhoy

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Gareth
Date: 10 May 03 - 07:08 PM

A true story - tho' edited out of Hansard, and related in the pub last night, by me local MP.

Jack Straw (HM Foriegn Secretary) ".... There are some difficulties in acepting the surrender of Saddams regime, we do not have anybody to negotiate with, nobody who can speak for them"

Out cry from all parts of the House of Commons " George Galloway "

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: pict
Date: 10 May 03 - 06:56 PM

Hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Mugwump
Date: 10 May 03 - 06:54 PM

The bastard's Scotch! - 'nuf said.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 May 03 - 05:25 AM

Well said Davebhoy, the definitive answer I think!!
Slainthe.....Giok

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 10 May 03 - 03:16 AM

Well, it seems like George is about to crash and burn, whether he is guilty or not. Maybe George had a wee bit of extra cash coming in from Iraq, but how many of our other MPs are getting grease from countries like Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Hillheader
Date: 10 May 03 - 03:05 AM

As a resident of George's constituency, I would prefer to hear him speak on local issues rather than international issues. Can anyone recall him evere speaking on a local (or even Scottish) issue? He should remember who appointed him and who pays him. I do not know if the documents found in Iraq are genuine, but the damage has been done in the wider (beyond Glasgow)public perception.

His suspension is simply a device to present him being selected for another constituency when the Glasgow Kelvin seat disappears by the next election. The selection process takes place later this year and if he is still under suspension, he is technically not within the party and thus cannot be considered. I do not agree with George Galloway on Saddam (his "indefatigability"), but the Labour party has always been a broad church and should be able to accomodate this views.

He went too far however by encouraging all Arabs to fight British soldiers - some of whom were no doubt his own constituents - and this more than anything else has alienated him locally. At a time when two British muslims were already planning suicide bombings in Israel, this was a comment to far.

His real "crime" however was critising Tony and for that alone Laour will get rid of him. If George were to stand under the official Labour banner, he would still be re-elected. Labour could (and probably have metaphorically) offered monkeys as candidates in Glasgow and had them returned as MP's. If forced to stand as an Independant, he will have no chance.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:43 AM

"My Hero", Teribus? Where the hell did that line drop from?? I trust that you do not read the gutter-press as casually as you appear to have read my posting---for that would seem to explain your acceptance of the pish tosh and piffle that has been flying around for the duration of the recent maneuverings. Galloway may well be guilty of some of the actions of which he stands accused; that most certainly does NOT make him "my hero". I simply pointed out that he'd have to go well beyond that of which he is accused before he sank to the depths of those who spread the lies which put so many in peril---innocent Iraqis, and combatants on all sides of the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: pict
Date: 09 May 03 - 06:44 AM

Pied piper if you are referring to my post I should point out that I have always been anti-war and I'm not stating that I believe the recent allegations against Galloway.What I do believe is that George is not a squeaky clean,good hearted socialist who would never get involved in dirty dealings.I think that he is an untrustworthy and self serving individual as do many others and although he may be innocent of these present charges he knew that his actions would draw fire from the party and sympathy from the anti-war crew.I think Georgey porgy is of the mind that no publicity is bad publicity.If you fly wi' the craws,you get shot wi' the craws.He's as wide as the Clyde and just as full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Gareth
Date: 08 May 03 - 07:11 PM

Well Greg, yes, in the Labour Party we do have some standards, some of us are fighting to maintain them.

On the other hand if, and George Galloway says he did not take any money, from the regime, I have yet to hear of any other coherent explanation as to why he acted as the Honarable Member for Baghdad Central.

Interestingly here in South Wales, during our recent Assembly Elections, I had Galloway's alleged coments thrown at me by relatives of servicemen on the doorstep. Other canvasers had similar experiences.

Gareth

Gareth.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:50 PM

He should be hung from the Forth bridge with his own kilt.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:11 PM

George G taking Saddam's money in an underhand way seems unlikely..I suspect dirty tricks. but the thought of someone safe in Scotland voluntarily deciding to kiss Saddam's arse so publicly and consistently is nauseating. the poor people of Iraq had no choice...Galloway did. Definitely no place for him in the Labour party, which may not stand for much these days but it still has some minmal standards.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:40 PM

I think he's a freeloading wide-boy. If he was MP for Peckham they'd have a hard time choosing between "Del Boy" & "Plonker" for a nickname...

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:50 PM

George "Monster Ego" Galloway, is sitting in one of the safest Labour sets in the UK, that is the reason for his arrogance, and the Labour party's panic.
I must say it's nice to know that at least his predicament has managed to bring the name Maggie Thatcher back into a Mudcat thread!!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:52 PM

I was just thinking that If Bush and Blair had listened to what the UN was saying then we wouldn't of had the war in Iraq and all those soldiers would never had died.
So Geroge Galloway didn't kill them, Bush and Blair did by starting the war.

Anyway I'm not going to argue I have said my peice and I'm all for George.
Demrocracy forever.
So don't answer this please.
Just I agree to disagree.
And If I have upset anyone then I'm sorry but we are all entiltled to our opinions, I don't agree with some and agree with others.
Tom

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:42 PM

Good 'old' George.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:41 AM

So from your high beach, two wrongs make a wright?
PP

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: pict
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:38 AM

George is professional politician he's just as greasy as the rest just in different ways.

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: Gareth
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:38 AM

Nothing hypocritical with Thatcher not questioning Pinochet, after all they were two very nasty specimins.

Are you suggesting that George Galloway is also a hypocrite ?, if so I must concur.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: George Galloway: A hero for democracy?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 May 03 - 08:26 AM

And Gareth, not forgetting Rumsfeld when he licked up Saddam during the Iraq-Iran war, and as the man says, theres more. Ard Macha.