Violent lyrics increase aggression claim

Subject: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 May 03 - 03:07 AM

From this week's New Scientist: "Songs loaded with violent imagery do increase aggressive thoughts and emotions, new research shows". I don't think they mean We shall overcome!

Steve

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Hamish
Date: 08 May 03 - 03:13 AM

or The Cruel Mother, or....

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Clean Supper
Date: 08 May 03 - 08:48 AM

Well, yes. Thankyou once again to the ISPWOPO (Institute for Slowly and Painstakingly Working Out the Painfully Obvious).

with apologies to the late Douglas Adams.

On the other hand, I'd like to see the reuslts of a study on the possible cathartic benefits or dangers of SINGING the songs. I suspect that the 'singer' of Rage Against the Machine feels a lot of release after screaming "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me" as many times as that in a row. I know I do when I yell along.

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: MMario
Date: 08 May 03 - 08:54 AM

Do these people who do these studies ever factor in fairy tales, nursery rhymes, etc? I mean those things are VIOLENT.

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 03 - 08:58 AM

My daughter was brought up on old versions of fairy tales. She always felt cheated by modern versions in which Cinderella's sister's don't cut their toes off, stepmother's don't dance to death in red-hot shoes, etc, etc.

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: MMario
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:02 AM

How about the old version of Sleeping Beauty where she doesn't wake-up until she gives birth and the baby is put to breast?

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:18 AM

Horse shit. And, I have more than a little experetise in the area of intraspecific agression. I have the rank of GODAN in Traditional Shotokan Karate,and, am being inducted into the Martial Arts Hall of Fame in the category of Instrucxtor of the year.
This honor is due to my initiating a program in the Providenc RI Public Schools that has proven to change teen agers destructive and violent tendencies into constructive, non-violent character and personality traits. We are effecting an actual CURE for anti social personalities, something that no Psychologist , Psychiatrist or counciller has ever done. Furthermore we change violent to non violent behavior in eight weeks. Heres what we did:
The Principal of the Nathan Bishop Middle School in Providence, RI chose 20 of his worst offenders, kids with failing report cards,who mouth off to their teachers and are forever getting into fights and other ikinds of trouble. He made it MANDATORY that these kids attend two classes of traditional Shotokan Karate per week after school or have 5 oeriods of detention evcery week.
In EIGHT WEEKS WE GOT THE RESULTS THAT,WE HAVE LEARNED TO EXPECT WHEN WE TEACH VIOLENT MEN TRADITIONAL KARATE.   Without exception, and I stress without exception they lose their violent tendencies and become the kind of person who avoids violence and becomes a more pacifistic person.

Our "little thugs" stopped picking fights, stopped mouthing off to their teachers, formed friendships between Black and Hispoanic kids that, hitherto, would have been impossible, They actually started to do their school work, and attend classes. All 20 got improved report cards. They are now all in high school, not one drop out in the bunch.

We knew this would happen, but we never expected these results in such a short time. The Principal and all lthe teachers are delighted.

Now here is where we contradict any studies that declare violent lthoughts breed violent personalities. our students eat, breath,and think violence. They are constantly learning techniques that are vastly superior to the instinctive way that young males exercise their intra - specific agressive instincts.

There are two kinds of Martial Arts schools. One that teaches the traditional styles, and the other that I call "Chop- Socki" schools which teach a bag of self defence tricks that depend on their attacker doing exactly what is expected of them. This secoond kind of so called Karate training, which is not at all real karate, is the kind that trhe 9-11 hijackers learned and has no effect, plus or minus, on th4e students character and perswonallity.

Go to WWW.rishotokan.com. It will give you a lot of information about our school. Click on "instructors" and you'll find me. The reason for the silly expression on my face in some of the photographs is because I was forceably exhaling.
Look, if you want more information, and a description of what activity acrually effects this remarkable change, send me an E-mail, To [e-mail]. I'll be abl;e to take my time writing it and won't have to worry about getting bumped off as sometimes happens here.

Jody Gibson

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:22 AM

See news on research about positive music at www.dovesong.com.

~S~

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: MMario
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:24 AM

Jody - now *that* I believe! I also saw it in action with my own nephew under other circumstances, but again, a traditional style. In addition, the young people in the class learned a valuable lesson when one instructor got into a bar fight and the sensei dropped him back to beginner status for a year, then made him work through all the levels again to regain his rank.

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Bagpuss
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:33 AM

There is a great version of Snow White by Neil Gaiman called Snow, Glass and Apples - told from the perspective of the "wicked" stepmother which you can read here and listen to an except from here.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: MMario
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:43 AM

wow!

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 May 03 - 11:30 AM

Jody, I used to work with a martial arts instructor years back, and I agree: it's a good way of giving youngsters a purpose and an outlook, and it certainly finds constructive work for those idle hands the Devil is so fond of. You could try something similar with folk music, maybe; but it's not really cool enough these days, is it?

Bagpuss, that's a great reworking of the story: I love that kind of thing. I recall a fake tabloid headline from my youth: Teenage girl found living with seven deformed old men, or words to that effect, well before PC. I may have a bash at doing the Dwarves' version, if I can find time. Meanwhile, have you read any of Tom Holt's books? He's a bit too sarky for my taste, but he certainly knows how to find a different angle.

Steve

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 08 May 03 - 11:49 AM

What about the role of the marital arts in lowering aggression levels?

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 May 03 - 12:15 PM

I thought that's what Cranky Yankee was on about? Not only do you work off your excess energy, but you get a sense of order and your place in the scheme of things and an appreciation of responsible behaviour (for want of a better expression). That's more than you get from playing the banjo!

Steve

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 03 - 12:29 PM

Jody being inducted into the martial arts hall of fame? how much did you pay them?

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 May 03 - 12:55 PM

Bagpuss, thanks for that! Very gruesome, reminds me of an Alfred Hitchcock. A fellow drove into a small New England town which had banners about an upcoming BBQ and other festivities. He was arrested on false charges of speeding and put in an all metal jail cell. From there, he could see the townspeople getting ready for their weekend fete. He was told he couldn't get out until the following Monday when a judge would be available. Come time for the BBQ and he noticed his cell had been getting warmer and warmer...he was their tasty treat!

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: michaelr
Date: 08 May 03 - 03:21 PM

Big DUH! to that resarch. Next they'll have a look at blood-spurting, spine-ripping, eyeball-gouging video games, maybe? Or Hong Kong martial "arts" movies?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:14 PM

As a headbanger who has seen no more than 3 fights in 20 years at my various watering holes (as opposed to 3 fights a night at yer average nightclub), I treat this with all due scepticism. I'd be more impressed if they'd compared the effect of violent lyrics & non-violent lyrics regardless of genre!!! I mean, there's some pretty gruesome folk songs out there, right?! ;)

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:18 PM

Nice try at the Snow White rewrite. Bit of a problem of logic however. Reminds me of a kid I went to school with who ended a story about being a soldier with the line "then the enemy came and we were all killed."

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Frankham
Date: 08 May 03 - 07:33 PM

I agree that martial arts might have some ameloriating effect on violent behavior but at the same time, those not exposed to T'ai Chi, Karate, etc. and who are exposed to messages from violent songs might be unduly influenced. There is no empirical evidence to support either case but to dismiss it out of hand is not looking at what evidence there is available.

Yes, I think that some folk songs are inciteful to violence and represent the violent tendencies in some of the cultures that they emanate from. I haven't noticed that all folk singers per se tend to be necessarilly free from violence. People react to music in different ways.


I would bet money that if you played an agressive piece of rock for a group of young male kindegartners, you would see a room full of hitting and pushing.

I think that people can be hypnotized into agressive behavior through song "messages". Maybe it doesn't always come out in predictable ways such as those who show no signs of overt agression but suddenly snap one day and shoot up people.

In short, to say that the study is nonsense, is nonsense. There might be some connection and that has to be determined by furthur study.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: toadfrog
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:11 PM

For truly violent lyrics, sung in a matter-of-fact way without a bunch of frat-boy affectation, it's hard to beat Lamkin. And doesn't that prove the point? After all, the Scots and Appalachian persons who sang those songs were really violent people, fond of settling their disputes with claymores, Bowie knives, or even better, guns!

How many Child Ballads can you think of where somebody gets burned alive? I can think of
Lamkin
Young Hunting
The Twa Sisters
Bonny Suzy Cleland

I'm no expert - there have to be dozens! Think what violence we perpetrate when we sing that stuff! We have a lot to answer for!

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 03 - 11:12 PM

Interesting.

I suspect that the reason that certain types of martial arts bring about a less violent response to stimulation in the practitioner is that martial arts teach self control. I have noticed, in adults too but especially in children, that their perception that they cannot control themselves leads to their rapid loss of self control.

Maybe violent lyrics, on the other hand, give permission to those normally in control to just let go? I have not actually seen that demonstrated.

We do know that modern society believes whole heartedly in advertising, and I can't imagine violence being more heavily advertised than on current television and movies and videos.

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 May 03 - 02:21 AM

Violence is bad. Just say Know.

Our 'entertainment' industry portrays violence constantly. There is often no morality to it... and certainly no training is given to the public on how to deal with it.

Folksongs have the capability of educating and informing... but they do not necessarily do so...

I do not believe that our comparison between Violent lyrics and martial arts is an especially good one.

I'm concerned about the effects violent headlines in the news...

There is a correlation, however, between education and less inclination towards violence, but...

Couldn't we just be a lot nicer? ttr

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 May 03 - 03:02 AM

I always prefered the real version of Goldilocks - where the bears eat her for breaking and entering, slander, theft of porridge, criminal damage and defammation of character. Makes certain British farmers look postively humane.

The world has always been violent - red in tooth and claw - the difference is, humans are the only creatures to have developed tools to be violent with. Even the smallest creature in the field will learn by example. If we teach our children that violence is acceptable, then they will teach theirs. If we teach them that it is a part of living, but that we have a choice, then hopefully they will learn that that choice is theirs and choose accordingly.

LTS

Subject: RE: Violent lyrics increase aggression claim
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:27 AM

I believe Cranky Yankee has explained something forgotten in our modern world and school system. In Shotokan Karate the focus is on discipline and control, as well as respect. When these students learn that there are painfull consequences for bad behaviour, they tend to learn respect and discipline quickly. Rewarded for good behaviour, they also learn rules of behaviour and levels of force, set by the example of their instructors.

Rap music has created a sub-culture in society that people can behave obnoxiously without consequence. Nobody complains or tries to correct the bad behaviour of these dudes. They act in agressive ways that intimidate and impress the weak. Gangs are powerfull and young people feel the need to belong to such groups; where the impression of protection is offered.

The Modern Samurai

Mindset makes a Samurai. Service to society.
Courage--the courage to take responsibility for
ALL of your actions, for ALL of your statements.
Living each day as if it might be your last--it
very well might be. Awareness--being alert to your
surroundings, relaxed but vigilant. The
sensitivity to acknowledge the beauty, the sorrow,
the humorous in the sights and events you
encounter every day. The bravery to move, to act,
to respond instantly in an emergency without
hesitation, without worrying about the opinions of
others, if you sincerely believe that this is what
needs to be done. Striving constantly to improve,
to better yourself so that you will make a
positive difference in your little corner of the
world. Knowing how to die with calm resolve
because you die "defending the right and the
good."

Author unknown