Tech: PC Defrag HELP!

Subject: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 08:32 AM

Just a technical query folks!
I just cleared out a load of junk files from my PC. I decided it was time to defragment my hard drive. The drive is partitioned into three virtual drives. E has new programmes installed to kee them separate from the Windows Operating system. D has data, documents, music, pictures, etc. Drive C is the original partition with Windows ME pre-installed. I used Microsofte Windoze Defrag utility.
Drive E is about 3GB in size and defragged in about 15 minutes.
Drive D is 14 GB and did the job in less than an hour. - then I set it off on C drive....
C Drive is 12GB (smalled than D Drive). 11 HOURS later it finished. I started it at 3.15 in the afternoon and didn't complete the task until nealy Half past Two in the morning.
Every time the programme started to move data around, it would run between 2 seconds and about a maximum of 30 seconds. THEN I would get a message that the data on the drive had changed, and the programme would go back to the very beginning - checking the drive for errors. Once it had done this, it would return to the point it had previously reached, and then continue moving data about. Seconds later the process would repeat itself.
HELP - Does anyone know why it behaves like this?
Is it an artefact of Windows being the most stupid crap computer operating system ever invented, or is there a way I can avoid it next time?
Should I close something down? - I wasn't trying to run any other programmes, but Windows insists on opening a load of stuff I don't use and don't want, in the background, ever time it boots up! Do I need to close these somehow?
Is there something I can disable to make things run smoothly?
Any advice from those of you who know more about Windows would be greatly appreciated.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 08:35 AM

Jeff, run in safe mode and have no other programs running. Use task manager to shut things down if needed.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 08:44 AM

To obtain "safe Mode" hit Control and 8 whilst booting up.

Alt' shut down Zone Alarm, Any Anti-Virus, and things like Pop up Killers. And then defrag.

Also check that there is plenty of spare memory on yer "C" drive for swop files.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 08:59 AM

To get rid of the things that open when you boot (mostly gifts from programs that you've downloaded) hit "START", then "RUN", and type "msconfig", and hit "OK." When the SYSTEM CONFIGURATION window opens, hit the tab that says STARTUP. Uncheck anything you don't want to open when the PC starts...make sure you know what it is when you do. When you're done, hit OK, and then restart.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:03 AM

To identify and close the unwanted startups:
click on Start > Run
type msconfig > click OK
You should now see the System Configuration utility
Under the General tab, choose Selective Startup

Under the Startup tab (far right) you will find a checklist of every stupid little RAMsucking utility, agent, and Systray icon that starts up with Windows.

The only ones that you must leave checked for Windows to operate are:
System Tray (systray) and Scan Registry (scanreg). You can safely remove all other checkmarks, except for things you may actually want to leave running like your anti-virus software. To do the defrag, though, I suggest you disable all of them. EXCEPT systray & scanreg, that's the only rule.

You will find the system booting a lot faster without all that junk in there, and you should be able to proceed with the defrag without a lot of interference. (I am not disagreeing with Jon's suggestions, this is just another approach, which will continue to benefit you after your next reboot).

If by some chance you find after rebooting that you can't find something that was actually useful to you (and you don't know which startup item it was), you can go back to your original bloated startup menu by going into MSCONFIG again and selecting Normal Startup.

W-O

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:19 AM

You must also set both background/wallpaper and screen saver to None. I found that out the hard way too.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:20 AM

Yep msconfig is really useful. I think it does exist on ME which Geoff is using but was an ommission at least in Win2K.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:21 AM

I'm having the same problem, only I get error message DEFRAG00205, which indicates that I need to empty the applog folder. But that doesn't solve the problem.

It took me 8 hours to run a thorough ScanDisk, but then Defrag stops at ~ 10% and says to run ScanDisk.

I'm in safe mode, ~4 GB used on a 20 GB hard drive. I've physically cleaned the innerds of the box with compressed air. I'm currently throwing away digital pictures that I can live without. My virus checker doesn't detect any viruses.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Giac
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:31 AM

Sorcha has one of the best tips: Disable the screensaver!! I was going nuts trying to defrag because of the same thing. Then a friend said, innocently, "Oh, turn off the screensaver."

I did and it did its thing quickly. That is the ONLY change I made.

Same thing seems to apply when doing any sort of system maintenance scans.

I use ME.

Mary

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: pattyClink
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:23 AM

To re-clarify for non-techies, to get into plain-vanilla 'Safe Mode' when Windows is starting, hit CTRL-F8.

I don't know if this is the original problem, but for what it's worth: C drives rapidly get filled up with crap and if you have only a meg or two left it makes it difficult for anything to proceed. Trying to defrag a drive with little space or elbow room to work is like trying to paint the floor of a room which is 95% covered with furniture. You have to keep stopping and moving furniture and then you can only paint a little at a time. I don't know if this has anything to do with your situation, but it has bogged me down a time or two. One of the files Windows used to create is a hidden "swap" file which can be enormous, the equivalent of having a grand piano in that room.

Apologies to real gurus if this is technically unsound info...

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: pattyClink
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:43 AM

I got a lot of *#&$()#@ stuff off my startup menu thanks to your instructions, art and willie!!! THANKS!!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:46 AM

UPGRADE, UPGRADE, UPGRADE...3 important rules..

minimum of 2 Ghz processor, min 512 MB RAM, 80 GB HD...

and add NORTON UTILITIES...

older, outdated machines are horribly slow...

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:53 AM

Thanks for the suggestions - What a great place Mudcat is! One response within 3 minutes, and eight within an hour! You are all wonderful people! QUACK!

Jon and Gareth - Although being aware of Safe Mode - I could never remember how to get there deliberately - it usually just happens following some "problem" (usually caused by Windows not doing what it is supposed to do, and then crashing itself!).

Art and Willie - I have hears references to doing what you suggest, but didn't know how to access the facility. I'll certainly disable some of the annoying ones permanently.

I don't normally use a screensaver. I find them annoying if I am actually trying to do some real work on the computer. I usually only enable them for a specific reason, then shut them down when I want to use the computer. Even then I tend to use the screen blanker rather than the fancy things.

I will add this thread to my tracer, so if any other useful additions appear, I can check them out!
Once again. MANY THANKS
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From:
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:52 AM

When I get home I'll have to look up the name of it, but I got a FAST defrag utility on a CD from a British Computer magazine. It was PC-Pro, PC-Format or PC-Plus. Good magazines, good utilities.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 12:02 PM

the nice thing about using msconfig is that you can always go back and change things again. Clearing the checkmarks doesn't delete anything from your system, just takes it off the startup thing. Too many software packages install all their junk in startup without even asking you, or without telling you that you don't need to have that activated for the program to work fine.

"older, outdated machines are horribly slow..." GUEST is talking nonsense. Machines which aren't configured properly are horribly slow. There's nothing wrong with a PC 2 or 3 years old if you follow proper maintenance. Just like a car. RAM upgrade is good to have though. Specially on Win 2K or XP.   

If your C drive is 95% full, more than just defragging performance is affected. You simply won't have enough headroom to perform a lot of functions efficiently. Gotta move stuff out of there. Remember, that's where your operating system is--and while the swap file doesn't have to be huge, you need to leave some room for it.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: BanjoRay
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 12:22 PM

This is superbly useful stuff - thanks to the contributors (and to Geoff for the question!). Using msconfig, how can you find out exactly what the various functions do, and how important they are?
Ray

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 12:49 PM

I guess that depends on what GUEST meant, Willie-O. I know that every time I use Pip's machine (MMX 200/32Mb RAM) after mine (Athlon 1Ghz/256Mb) I curse the speed it moves at.

On the other hand, I agree with your comments. I actually took the drastic step of re-formatting and re-installing everything for her a few weeks ago. Pip is delighted with it - I don't think you notice gradual slow downs over time but you certainly do notice the speed increase when everything is tidied up. I don't think I'd consider repair if a major component blew but while it keeps running, it will remain a very useful machine for her...

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 04:47 PM

I had a go at the Systray option and unticked everything. It has certainly made that bar at the bottom of the screen a lot tidier!
Don't know which I will wish to reinstate, but it works!
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 06:54 PM

Most of the information given above, while somewhat helpful, is simply not applicable to the problem at hand.

While there are certain programs that can write to the drive and "change the contents," and these programs should be turned off to do a defrag, Safe Mode is not particularly helpful, and Systray does NOT normally interfere with defrag.

In the olden days when everyone used the simple FAT disk (FAT16), the "root sector" was a fixed length - regardless of how much information was on the disk. ONLY the 8+3 DOS filename, a few (4+) attribute bits, the file length, and the cluster location of the first cluster in the file (or folder) was recorded there. Each cluster contained the location of the next one in the file or folder.

FAT (FAT16) structure cannot be used for large disks, since it doesn't have enough space to write more than "a few" file addresses. It also cannot efficiently "service" long file names, and since the "root sector" knows little about the overall structure of the disk, it can't do a very "efficent" defrag. Defrag with a FAT structure can take a very long time, simply because it can't do anything except move files one at a time, in the order encountered, to close up all the gaps. Since it must write a file that's to be moved somewhere "high" on the disk, then must verify the write, then must re-address the location of the "new" file, and then do the same thing again to move it back - if there is a one byte gap at the beginning of the disk, it may have to write every byte on the disk at least 4 (or 8 or 16) times. But it doesn't restart too often - it just takes a very long time to complete.

With FAT32, the "root folder" takes over the bookkeeping tasks, and it is permitted to be any length - and can change it's length when the information recorded there changes. If the first few clusters are "densely compacted" - i.e. defragged, a change in the length of the "root folder" means that adjacent clusters must be moved to make room - or to close any gap that appears. The vast majority of the "disk contents changed - restarting" messages during defrag of a FAT32 disk are the result of changes in the length of the "root folder" information - and ARE NOT CAUSED BY OTHER PROGRAMS.

Compared to a FAT root sector, the FAT32 "root folder" contains an immense amount of information, but some of the information is "optional" and may only be "filled in" during a defrag. Of course, when it finds a file or folder with additional information, adding that information to the root folder may change the length of the root folder - which means the file that supplied the information (and all other files preceding it on the drive) may have to move, so the information will be incorrect when defrag gets back to it - which means doing it all over again.

Usually, the second pass on one of these "rich data points" will resolve the information, so that after the third restart defrag will pass through this point - but: the next "rich data point" may change the root folder length - which makes the data for the first "rdp" wrong again, requiring 3 more restarts to fix it for each of the 3 restarts required to fix the second one. This behaviour is BUILT IN with FAT32 disk format under Win98. If you have "N" rich data points that will add information to the root folder during defrag, you COULD potentially get (3N)! restarts. (For N = 3, that's 362,880 restarts.)

The situation is less dismal than it might be simply because there's often quite a bit of slop left in the last cluster of each file, so that small changes in file size don't often affect where the next file starts.

With Win2000 and WinXP, defrag compacts files but doesn't typically attempt to compact all of the free space between them, leaving a little "headroom" so that restarts are much less frequent - although they still seem to occur. With NTFS disks under those two systems, they are not observable so far as I've been able to tell.

If you have a program that you know might write to the disk during a defrag, by all means turn it off; but cripling Windows by turning off things that don't affect the defrag operation will only assure that you'll never get a full and effective defrag, and the situation will never get better. Under Win98, with a FAT32 20GB drive, I've seen as much as 23 hours for a defrag, but subsequent degrags - once the disk has been "sorted out" seldom took more than about 3 hours. I'll note that the "record" 23 hour defrag in Windows came immediately after a SAFEMODE defrag that did a "dumb" job of it and scrambled the "efficient" file sort that Windows wanted.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From:
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:32 PM

The fast defrag program I mentioned above is called Diskeeper Lite. For a bit about it, and a link to download a free copy of the Lite version,

Diskeeper Lite

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: GUEST,Hobbitwoman
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:33 PM

An excellent program, Diskeeper Lite. Defrags rings around the ones that ship w/ Windows.

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:07 PM

Pathetic top Thread!!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

There are REAL NEWS-GROUPS which "CATER" to the needs of newbies - draw the "LINE" somewhere and send these posts to Hyperion's Other Regions!

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:48 PM

I've been pretty pleased with Norton's defrag utility, Speed Disk. They say (though whether you believe it is up to you) that their utility locates files on the disk in a way that makes access to files more efficient, unlike most defraggers which use a more "brute force" method. I also like the disk map with all the pretty colors! I'd be interested in what John in Kansas has to say about this program. I understood most of his comments...I appreciate, John, that you were trying to make the information understandable to mere mortals!

I've also found that if I turn off my screensaver, the defrag works just fine--no need for Safe Mode or for turning off all the startup programs (though it is a good idea to check those periodically and not clutter up your system by running unnecessary programs).

Aloha,
Mark

(I do appreciate the chance to have these tech discussions here once in a while, and I'm glad the clones don't relegate them to the BS pile.)

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:57 PM

PS, speaking of screensavers, the one I like to use is SETI@home. I figure I'm doing my bit to facilitate interstellar communication, peace, and harmony.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:00 AM

SPIN RITE!@

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:50 AM

Greg, if you can't post anything helpful, why post at all?

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 03:08 AM

The defrag in Windows will relocate files for reasonably efficient access - if you can get it to run to completion with that feature turned on, and leave it on for all subsequent defrags. One problem experienced by those who can't help messing with success is that if you turn off the "optimize" setting and defrag once without it, you're back to square one, since essentially you're doing a SafeMode (dumb) defrag without it, and will destroy the "efficient" locations that were set up.

Norton utilities are generally excellent, although the built in Windows tools will do just about everything that most people need. The real problem is that it's almost impossible to tell how much better the Norton stuff is when you need to justify spending the few extra bucks, and there are a very few isolated utilities that simply don't run well with Windows. The only utility I can think of offhand that would justify - cost/benefit - Norton would be the need for a secure disk wipe; but I don't handle classified stuff any more and my "personal data" is mostly appropriate to the (dark) humor columns.

SpinRite was an absolutely essential tool 30 years ago, but since Steve Gibson switched his interests to the hackers and spammers, I haven't seen any compelling justification for it on my current equipment. I'd probably buy it if HE told me again why I should; but I don't think he participates in the company much anymore.

It should be noted that Windows defrag is "interruptible." You can turn it on when you retire, and if it's still running when you need the machine, just shut it off. Restart it at the next convenient time, preferably when it can run for a few hours at a time. It's a little less "efficient" that way, but eventually it will get done, and subsequent defrags - if done regularly - will take a lot less time than those "worst case" examples.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:52 AM

Here is Microsoft's answer. Which I will also paste here for easy reference:

"Drive's Contents Have Changed: Restarting..." Message When You Use the Disk Defragmenter Tool

The information in this article applies to:
Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition
Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition
Microsoft Windows 98

This article was previously published under Q186978
SYMPTOMS
When you use the Disk Defragmenter tool to defragment your hard disk, you may receive the following message:

Drive's Contents Have Changed: Restarting...

CAUSE
This issue can occur if a program (such as an antivirus program or a screen saver) is running on the drive when the Disk Defragmenter tool is running.

RESOLUTION
To work around this issue, use one of the following methods.
Clean Boot the Computer

A "clean" boot is a method of reducing problems that may occur because of your computer's environment. Many problems that may occur when you run Windows or other programs can occur because there are conflicting drivers, terminate-and-stay-resident programs (TSRs), or other settings that load when you start your computer. Windows Millennium Edition (Me) and Windows 98 include a System Configuration Utility tool (Msconfig.exe) to make performing a clean boot easier.

To clean boot your computer:
Click Start, point to Programs, point to Accessories, point to System Tools, and then click System Information.
On the Tools menu, click System Configuration Utility.
On the General tab, click Selective Startup, and then click to clear the following check boxes:
Process Config.sys File (if available)
Process Autoexec.bat File (if available)
Process Winstart.bat File (if available)
Process System.ini File
Process Win.ini File
Load Startup Group Items


Click OK, and then restart your computer when you are prompted.
After your computer starts, run the Disk Defragmenter tool. After Disk Defragmenter finishes, start the System Configuration Utility tool again by repeating the above steps. In step 3, click Normal Startup on the General tab, and then click OK. Restart your computer when you are prompted to do so.

Use Safe Mode

Instead of performing a clean boot, you may want to restart your computer in Safe mode, and then start the Disk Defragmenter tool. After you run Disk Defragmenter, restart your computer. To use Safe mode, restart your computer, press and hold down the CTRL key after your computer completes the Power On Self Test (POST), and then choose Safe Mode from the Startup menu.

For additional information about how to start your computer in Safe mode, click the article number below to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
180902 How to Start a Windows 98-Based Computer in Safe Mode

MORE INFORMATION
For additional information about how to troubleshoot issues with Disk Defragmenter, click the article numbers below to view the articles in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
218160 Disk Defragmenter Hangs After Choosing Disk to Defragment

259030 APC PowerChute Plus Causes Disk Defragmenter to Hang

Last Reviewed: 9/6/2001
Keywords: kbDefrag kberrmsg kbprb KB186978

Subject: RE: Tech: PC Defrag HELP!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:38 PM

Jon -

I agree that's the "official" Mickey answer, and the only one they'll give you. The key to what it means is in:

"This issue can occur if ..."

Unfortunately, the cause described isn't the only thing that can cause repeated restarts, and they've been less than forthcoming about the "fact" that FAT32 was a "quick-fix" for some problems that has caused some others. So far as I've been able to tell, there is no complete description of the specific contents of the root folder available anywhere at the Mickey$oft support sites - information you'd need to really tell what's happening.

If you run defrag in Safe Mode, you get a dumb defrag. If you subsequently try to run defrag in normal Windows, it will try to reorganize to improve operating efficiency, and it will take a very long time.

IF you can get a defrag completed in normal Windows, it will usually work more quickly the next time - in normal Windows, and it should improve with each successive run. The first few passes in normal Windows may not show much improvement, but eventually you can get at least to where an overnight defrag works to completion.

EVERY time you run a defrag in "dumb mode" you re-scramble the disk, which is okay if that's the way you want to do it; but you'll never get the benefit that's available from letting Windows do it "it's way." It will always take as long in Safe Mode as it took the first time you did it that way. And every time you run it in Safe Mode, it usually sets you back to the original situation with respect to a normal Windows defrag.

You should turn off anything that might interfere, but you can do that by clicking them up from the SysTray and turning them off individually, or you can use Ctl-Alt-Del to bring up the "running processes" and stop them there. Screen savers and AntiVirus are probably the most common suspects. For a couple of reasons, you should NOT turn off SysTray, although it doesn't really seem to cripple things if you do.

The whole point is that MOST of the restarts are NOT caused by external processes, they're built into the disk file system. If you want things to get better, you've just got to work through them a couple of times - in normal Windows mode with the "optimize file locations" turned on. This may mean running for several hours at a time several times in succession to get the first one or two defrags done, but IT WILL GET BETTER IF YOU (CAN) DO IT.

Defrag will complete (usually) in Safe Mode, but it never gets any better. That's okay too, if your happy with what it does there. Safe Mode may actually be your best option if you have a lot of TSR processes on the machine, but for most Windows users it's not the best choice.

John