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BS: What does (sic)mean

GUEST,Boab_D 11 Jul 03 - 06:24 AM
Wilfried Schaum 11 Jul 03 - 06:51 AM
Hrothgar 11 Jul 03 - 07:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 03 - 07:31 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 11 Jul 03 - 07:39 AM
Geoff the Duck 11 Jul 03 - 09:41 AM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Jul 03 - 10:05 AM
catspaw49 11 Jul 03 - 10:19 AM
HuwG 11 Jul 03 - 10:32 AM
Burke 11 Jul 03 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,guest 11 Jul 03 - 11:21 AM
GUEST 11 Jul 03 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Boab d 11 Jul 03 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Q 11 Jul 03 - 03:58 PM
Little Hawk 11 Jul 03 - 05:08 PM
Rick Fielding 11 Jul 03 - 05:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 03 - 06:06 PM
Joe_F 11 Jul 03 - 06:48 PM
Amos 11 Jul 03 - 07:11 PM
Billy the Bus 11 Jul 03 - 10:15 PM
Deckman 11 Jul 03 - 10:34 PM
Ebbie 11 Jul 03 - 10:37 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Jul 03 - 11:16 PM
HuwG 12 Jul 03 - 11:21 AM
JennyO 12 Jul 03 - 01:05 PM
JohnInKansas 12 Jul 03 - 04:42 PM
Amos 12 Jul 03 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,Q 12 Jul 03 - 05:59 PM
mousethief 12 Jul 03 - 10:24 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Jul 03 - 02:03 AM
JohnInKansas 13 Jul 03 - 02:41 AM

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Subject: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: GUEST,Boab_D
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:24 AM

Hello all not been on in a while and I was just wondering if any of you people can help me with this sic thing as I've seen it in a vatiety of places and I havent got a clue as to what it actually means . Help the uneducated one please
Cheers for the noo
Dylan


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:51 AM

sic = Latin: so [scil. as described before]
scil. = scilicet = Latin: as everybody knows, naturally

BTW, some more Latin abbreviations wich are often found in older books, and might come in handy:
v.s. = vide supra = see above
v.i. = vide infra = see below
e.g. = exempli gratia = for instance
l.c. = loco citato = same reference as cited above

... and don't let the sic make you sick
Wilfried


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Hrothgar
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:01 AM

From the Macquarie Dictionary:

sic (adv) so; thus (often used parenthetically to show that something has been copied exactly from the original).

That is why you will often see (sic) after a spelling or grammatical mistake in a quatation.

In Australia, "Sic 'im!" is also a command to a dog to attack somebody or something.

Again from the Macquarie:

sic (v.t.) 1. to attack (esp. of a dog). 2. to incite to attack (var. of seek)


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:31 AM

Basically, when you quote some passage and it's got some mistake in it, such as a word spelt wrong, you put sic after it, in brackets to indicate you didn't insert the mistake yourself. (for example: "I've seen it in a vatiety (sic) of places...")

Even though it's a Latin word, any English dictionary which didn't contain it would be a pretty crap dictionary.


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:39 AM

It's also used more colloquially to imply that in quoting someone's way of describing something you not only don't agree with the person quoted, but want everyone else to know that you don't agree - in that usage it's a more elegant-sounding way of saying 'so-called'.


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 09:41 AM

Often used by an Editor to say - This is what was written, I haven't altered it. If it is misspelt or incorrect useage, that is because the writer wished it to be that way.
Quack!
Gt(sic)Duck


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:05 AM

To run the changes on what Geoff the Duck said, some readers think that (sic) is necessarily an accusation that the author of the quote is wrong, or silly, or stupid. This is a mistaken impression.

While the original author may or may not have been wrong (or silly or stupid), all the (sic) really means is that "I've copied the original carefully here," with the subtext that "If you find anything you think is wrong, it's not in my transcription."

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:19 AM

Extremely ill. So ill in fact that you're not even up to writing the last letter of the word "sick."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: HuwG
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:32 AM

Sic transit gloria mundi =

a: "Thus passes all glory in this world", or more concisely, "All glory is fleeting".

b: "I did a technicolour yawn in the van after the weekend"


[A Ford Transit, or "Trannie", is a common model of van used in Britain]


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Burke
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 11:14 AM

But enter it thus: [sic] not (sic). Square brackets are the conventional way of indicating the particular word or phrase is an editorial addition. If you put it in parens/curves it's not as clear. [] is also used to indicate other editorial additions. For example "He [Rowland Hill] did not see any reason why the devil should have all the good tunes."


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 11:21 AM

wow, i always thought it meant spelling incorrect because it's so often next to a misspelled word. thanks for the tip you latin scholars.


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 01:32 PM

[sic] LOOK, I am not that bloody stupid. Smart Ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: GUEST,Boab d
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 02:44 PM

Thanks for all the repiles and the wee latin lesson. Thats me learned my wee something new for the day
Thanks and cheerio
Dylan


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 03:58 PM

Editors and scholars are still fiddling with some of Joyce's and Faulkner's works. Was a word or phrase actually what was written by the author, or has an editor or printer made a mistake? Trying to re-interpret the original manuscripts and the author's revisions in order to come out with a more correct edition has led to multiple editions of Finnegans Wake, each striving to be the most accurate (and several "readers guides" as well).


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:08 PM

Beat me to it, Spaw...


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:54 PM

And don't forget that "sic semper tyranus est" means

"I've broken my f***ing ankle and the play was lousy to boot".

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:06 PM

"tant pis tant mieux"

"Auntie's feeling ever so much better since she went to the lavatory."


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:48 PM

In its proper scholarly use, "[sic]" need not even be in a quotation. The question, properly, is not whether the person quoted made a mistake, but whether the reader might think you, the writer, made a mistake. For example, in my journal I once wrote: "He said yes, he had better eat some candles [sic]." Without [sic], anyone (including me, after a while) might very reasonably suppose I meant "candies"; but "candles" is what I dreamed.


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:11 PM

Rick:

As I understand it, Wilkes Booth's phrase did not include the word "est", but was simply "sic semp[er tyrranis", meaning "thus ever unto tyrants". Dative case, I expect, eh?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:15 PM

HuwG,

Your translation of "Sic transit gloria mundi" brought back a memory of the time I drove 'Terry the Transient' over a bank, and into a pile of crayfish (lobster) pots, one Sunday night. It was filthy weather, and I'd just got an emergency flight airborne, with a comatose character, who had fallen into the hold of the cargo ferry. I'll admit I'd had a couple, but the reason I went off the road, coming down the hill from the airstrip[ was because I was peering skywards to see how the plane was getting on.

Anyway, as I perambulated erratically back home, your Latin quote ran through my mind....

"Sic transit maunday [sic] mundi"

I didn't think I would have a job on Tuesday!

Fortunately, I didn't get sacked, but had a few days off work to recover from contusions and confusions. The very sick Transit was put back on the road within a couple of weeks. The crayfish pots worked well the next season.

The whole project was actually a bit of a saga, involving the local nurse, the cop, the pilot, and myself. The emergency flight was done under very marginal conditions, and was stretching the rule book to it's utmost limit. Fortunately it had a real good outcome.

Our 'comatose patient' woke up in hospital on the mainland next day, shook his head and said "That was a good party", got up, and walked out - not even a bruise on him!

Cheers - Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:34 PM

So ... let's talk about what's REALLY IMPORTANT here! How many points will it get me in a scrabble game? Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:37 PM

HuwG, to put it even more concisely: "Glory is fleeting" (Remember the old joke of the farmer's experience with road-side advertising?)


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 11:16 PM

[sic] saves a lot of time in scholarly writing, because as noted above, your editor won't mark it as something that needs to be corrected if it's clearly marked as something that should stay as it is. You don't need to try to remember what you were doing at that point of the text if it is marked, and looking up citations is a time consuming process.


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: HuwG
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 11:21 AM

Ebbie, your literal translation is spot on; but what was the farmer's experience with the roadside ads ?


By the way; when a Roman general or emperor was awarded a triumph by the Senate, (in other words the right to parade himself, his troops, some loot and prisoners through Rome, the equivalent of a ticker-tape parade), a slave stood just behind him in his chariot, murmuring every so often into his ear this phrase. So, metaphorically, "Sic transit gloria mundi" means, "Don't get a swollen head; today's news is tomorrow's fish-and-chip wrapper".

A lovely 1934 Concise Oxford Dictionary which I have, also suggests the phrase, "Sic volo, sic jubeo" = "Such is my will, such is my command".

Also, "Sic vos, non vobis" = "So ye, not for yourselves" [sic]. This is, "used w. ref. to work of which the credit &c. falls to another than the doer" [sic, again].

How about "Sic quam psittacinus", = "sick as a parrot". No, perhaps not.


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 01:05 PM

I'd be sic if I ate candles :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 04:42 PM

The "standard references" for questions about formal usage of most of the things [seriously] discussed here are the various "style manuals." Which one you should use depends on which industry you're writing for.

The manual for most commercially published (in the U.S.)reference and text books is the Chicago Manual of Style, University of Chicago Press, which I believe is now at the 14th edition.

Newspapers, and quite a few other "periodicals" generally follow the Associated Press Style Manual [I don't have a copy handy, so that's an approximate title]. The AP Manual uses quite a few style devices intended to produce very compact writing, and allows quite a lot of "slang" and "makespeak" language that would be rather annoying in more formal writing, but is perfectly appropriate in the target industries.

Many technical societies, who publish a whole lot of stuff have their own style manuals. If writing for one of them, it's absolutely necessary to refer to the specific information therein.

"Chicago" generally uses brackets "[]" for all editorial markings. Most things in brackets are in standard-roman typeface, but "sic" is an exception because of its frequent and traditional usage, and should properly be italicized in brackets [sic].

The "sic" notation merely means "as written," and carries no connotation that the quoted source is in error, although some people seem to interpret it that way. An obsolete "comment" was the italic "!" (without brackets) which was intended to convey the editor's disapproval of something quoted. This usage is severely disparaged in modern usage. The ! notation is considered a "dumb-ass" comment that carries no meaning for a reader (except that the editor is a dumb-ass?). The quote should be simply marked with the standard [sic], and a separate [this is a stupid error by the author] - or something similar that clearly states the editors objection should be separately inserted.

There are any number of "generic" style manuals that discuss common errors of usage and that explain less common markings and abbreviations. While these are sometimes excellent, they frequently don't give a very good sense of intended audience, or of differences (say between U.S. and British usage) for different audiences. Given the caution one must use in choosing an appropriate one, they're still much better than relying on dictionary definitions for advice on usage in print.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 04:54 PM

John:

Spoken like a pro!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 05:59 PM

Many American non-technical authors follow the Prentice-Hall "Handbook for Writers" which also has gone through a number of editions. Their recommended usage agrees with that of the Chicago Manual.

Sic, translated from the Latin, means "thus it is," which can be taken to mean "as written," as noted by John, and appears as [sic] in the "Handbook for Writers." Italics are not required, but it is custom and practice for Latin words and phrases to be placed in italics.

In articles I have written for technical journals, sometimes [sic] appears in italics and sometimes not. One German journal printed it as [sic]! (Germans tend to overemphasize)


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 10:24 PM

"tant pis tant mieux"

"Auntie's feeling ever so much better since she went to the lavatory."

Nonsense! Clearly this means "Auntie went tinkle solely to annoy the cat."


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 02:03 AM

John,

I'm an MLA woman myself (Modern Language Association) though I have the Chicago Manual of Style handy. And I use Endnote for scholarly papers. Endnote converts bibliographies with a keystroke (though other changes still must be made manually within the text).

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: What does (sic)mean
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 02:41 AM

If you're writing for publication the publisher usually chooses which style manual you will use. Often (to the chagrin of proofers and editors) the author isn't told which one will be used, and it's up to "the little people" to clean things up. In addition to selecting a specific "Style Manual," most good publishers will have separate and distinctive "Style Sheets" for their various series.

Choice of which style to use, or which manual to follow, is not optional, since consistency and clarity are necessary.

I've noted that several previously respected publishers have settled almost to "vanity press" level, as evidenced by inconsistent style and poor (or obviously omitted) editing. One need examine only a few to confirm that this is usually a first - and infallible - indication that the content will also be trash.

I don't but those kinds of books much anymore.

Of course, in general communication, I'm about as sloppy as they come. Suit the purpose - always.

John


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