Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 07:35 PM

I absolutely shouldn't be relating this, and it's out of kilter with the thread, but I'm going to tell you anyway of things that occurred in Delph/Greenfield fifty years ago. One rainy autumn night, in my dad's steamed-up Vauxhall Viva (back seat), parked in a lay-by in one of said locations (can't remember exactly which, but why would I care), I provided my then girlfriend and future fiancée with the first o****m she'd ever had and the first one of those I'd ever provided for any lady. Strange how you never forget these moments. Perhaps one of you guys who is far more inventive than me would write a folk song about it. I married someone different in the end, by the way, so go carefully with your allusions, as I've been happily married now for 43 years...

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: MartinNail
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:37 AM

Yes, Sid Calderbank is definitely your man for Jone o' Grinfilt. His 2006 CD Includes the following:

1. c1805 The original Jone O' Grinfilt or Jone's ramble or Jone's ramble from Grenfelt to Owdham or Jone O' Grinfield or Jone O' Grinfilt
...
5. c1819 Joan O' Grinfilt junior or The handloom weaver's lament or The poor cotton weaver or Joan O' Greenfield & bailiffs or Joan O' Grinfield
...

So he dates the original Poor cotton weaver to c.1819.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 03:02 PM

Steve, I have a downloaded copy of Harland, thanks. As you say he prints several different 'Jone' ballads and a (disputed) account regarding the origins of the primary text ('Battle wi' French'). The original tune was 'The Chapter of Kings' (as given with the Poor Cotton Weaver text in Bert's FSE), and I understand this was the tune to which all the offshoot Jone ballads were intended to be sung - Sid Calderbank is he expert on that question. That's one of the reasons I think the Four Loom Weaver tune is MacColl's.

John Stafford specified 'Jone' as the tune for a set of words he wrote about his family's experience of the Peterloo: his two brothers and sister were at the meeting, but he and his father set ou late and turned back on hearing of the carnage. He published this in a self-produced booklet together with other radical pieces.

Richard / jag, I'm sure Professor Goldman's grasp of industrial history is perfectly sound, but it didn't sound to me as though he'd had much experience of the street literature of the period in question. I might leave a comment on the BBC website if it's possible. I was disappointed that the programme made no mention of Beckett Whitehead, even if his association with the song may not be everything that Ewan claimed.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 01:03 PM

I find that despite what the potted local histories and geographies say it looks like at the end of the 19th century about 15% of mills south of Rossendale still had looms as well as spindles and north of Rossendale it was the other way round.

So I guess that during the cotton famine the mechanical loom could have been more widespread than it was in the 1950s

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 10:54 AM

Hi Brian
Just found another under Joan O' Grinfilt's visit to Lunnon also on the Bodl. I haven't delft into this very deeply as it's not my area but I'm obviously curious. Are John/Jone,Joan all the same fictional person?

If Stafford was using a JoG tune in the 1820s then surely a song existed at that time. Harland (a Hull man) has a lot to say on the JoG songs and their origins. He places the original JoG's Ramble in the Napoleonic wars which would make sense and fit in with Stafford's possible authorship of PCW. Harland claims the original was written by James Butterworth. If you haven't got a copy of Harland I can scan the relevant pages for you

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 09:27 AM

In the early 1800's cotton was spun in the mills. Saddleworth still has the three story houses with the better-lit hand-loom weavers' lofts. Were they weaving cotton or wool? Saddleworth, though then in Yorkshire, was a cotton area by the 1900's. (The rest of Yorkshire over the Pennines did wool - though there was a woollen mill, spinning I think, in Greenfield until the 1960's.)

By the 1900's, and to the end of the industry, the south-east Lancashire mills spun cotton but the weaving was done in factories north of Rossendale.

So I wonder if there ever were any mechanized four loom weavers in the area where the early songs get there placenames from. Some historian of the cotton famine - or student of it's songs - will know.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 07:13 AM

I revived this thread to draw attention to Prof. Goldman's claim of the 1860s origin. Personally I am in no position to say whether he's right or wrong. If the general feeling is that he's wrong, should someone contact him to enquire about his evidence?

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 07:00 AM

I guess you'll have seen 'Joan O'Greenfield & Bailiffs' at the Bodleian site, Steve - another printing of the 'Poor Cotton Weaver' text.

My research into Peterloo songs has led me to the work of John/Jack Stafford, the radical poet from Ashton-under-Lyne who wrote verses (dialect and standard) in the 1810s/20s to the tunes of both Jo'G and 'Tyrants of England'. There is an intriguing report of a composition of his called';The Poor Cotton Weaver', but I haven't yet found the text.

However, here is still no evidence of a song beginning 'I'm a four-loom weaver...' having appeared during the 1860s.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 03:24 PM

Hi Brian
I have 6 different Jone O' Grinfelt/Grinfilt/Grinfield broadside ballads all printed in Lancashire or Leeds, but none of them appear to be earlier than 1850.

Regarding Oldham Weaver there is a weaver ballad 'The Owdham Chap's Visit to th' Queen' which starts 'It happen'd t'other Monday morn, while seated at my loom, sirs...' again not earlier than 1850.

Most of these were printed by Bebbington and Harkness.

The 'original Jone o' Grinfield' is as you say, with probably the Wheeler printing the earliest.

The song we are concerned with Jone o' Grinfield/Poor Cotton Weaver, Bebbington is probably the earliest I have 'I'm a poor cotton weaver as many a one knaws' in 10 6-line stanzas.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 07:51 PM

Sorry, actually Stuart has already remarked on MacColl's residence in Gee Cross, and reckons it was the 1950s...

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 07:47 PM

'He suggested that the remake of the Poor Cotton Weaver version of the song to the Four Loom Weaver version dates from around the 1860s during the cotton famine.'

This would have been Professor Lawrence Goldman. He proposed that an ancestral version from the 1790s, known alternatively as 'The Oldham Weaver' or 'The Poor Cotton Weaver' was followed by another version (title unspecified) around 1815, and that the song 'emerged again' in the early 1860s in response to the Cotton Famine, the mention of four looms reflecting the later mechanization of the industry.

This account doesn't really tally with the broadside evidence. The only candidate for the '1790s version' would appear to be the original 'Jone O' Grinfilt' ballad about going off to fight the French; I don't know of a song or broadside with the title 'The Oldham Weaver', while 'The Poor Cotton Weaver' - generally printed under the confusingly identical title 'Jone O' Greenfield' - is the one I'd assumed dated from ca. 1815. I know of no broadside dating from the 1860s resembling the MacColl version or mentioning a 'Four Loom Weaver', though maybe Steve can correct me if he's ever found such a thing. 'Jone / Poor Cotton Weaver' broadsides were, however, still being printed at least into the 1850s, and Harland (writing in the 1870s) tells us that this text (not the 'Four Loom Weaver' version) was 'still a favourite'.

So, I can find no evidence that there was any rewrite of the text during the 1860s, and there's nothing in the text of 'Four Loom Weaver' to connect it with the Cotton Famine. So I'm still sticking with my original theory of a MacColl rewrite. By an odd coincidence MacColl lived during the 1930s in Gee Cross, Hyde, very close to the present home of my old friend Stuart Cook, who explained the concept of the four looms for us earlier on. It's not impossible that MacColl heard the term then. (NB Stuart stated that these machines were worked by women, in contrast to the male narrator of the song).

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Oct 20 - 05:52 PM

Don't know if Marcus has been back to us but I'm pretty certain the intended tune for Delph Coronation/Laddie Rocks would have been the ubiquitous 'King of the Cannibal Islands' from the early 19th century
used throughout the century for all sorts of topical songs such as Tommy Armstrong's 'Stanley Market', and 'Bunty's Ghost' from the same area.

The chorus would also fit precisely if the first line was tripled.

Great thread! But I miss Jim!!

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 26 Oct 20 - 02:50 PM

I'm reviving this thread just to mention that I listened today to the second of Morpurgo's Folk Journeys, during which one of the contributors made the same comment as C Stuart Cook above: that working four looms came in with automatic power looms. He suggested that the remake of the Poor Cotton Weaver version of the song to the Four Loom Weaver version dates from around the 1860s during the cotton famine.

That would be long before Becket Whitehead got hold of it, but it doesn't resolve whether MacColl was responsible for the present tune.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:20 AM

REfresh

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Captain Farrell
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:44 AM

Sunday nights at the Cross Keys Uppermill HB and A Wrigley poems and songs are done quite often

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: marcusjames
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM

I don't know if I already posted this, but for those that are still interested in what I'm uncovering regarding Becket, please have a look here Whiteheads of Saddleworth

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: marcusjames
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:12 AM

Turns out it was from an old song called the Greenfield Hunt, which Ammon Wrigley said was lost when he was looking for it, so I don't fancy my chances

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Richard Spencer
Date: 04 May 14 - 03:49 AM

Laddow Rocks is just over the hill from Saddleworth. Don't know the tune though.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: marcusjames
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 08:55 PM

It's as good a lead as I've got already, so thankyou!

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 06:39 PM

Why? well, it's hunting country, Laddie sounds as if it could be the name of a hound, the song references places (like hunting songs do), the chorus sounds as if it could have come from a hunting song .... oh, I don't really know! It was just a suggestion!! :-)
Derek

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: marcusjames
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:01 AM

I've just found another reference on the Coronation Do song sheet, to 'Mountain Laurel'

Any ideas? I'll post the song sheet so you can have a squizz and see if it helps at all

You can view the sheet here

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: marcusjames
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 06:41 AM

why's that Derek?

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 02:36 PM

Laddie Rocks might be something to do with hunting?

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: marcusjames
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:16 AM

Whilst I've got your attention, I'm looking for a tune.

There is an Ammon Wrigley song called "Th' Delph Coronation Do" and it says that it is sung to the tune of "Laddie Rocks"

Have you heard of it at all?

The meter of the lyrics is thus:-

Neaw, o' yoh folk o'er th' Hunter's Hill,
Fro' th' Grenfilt road, un th' Uppermill,
Just try un keep yoh'r clappers still,
Aw've summat here to tell yoh :
It's about a do ther's beawn to be,
Where everything yoh want is free ;
A better place ther' connut be,
Nor th' Delph ut coronation.


The chorus goes:

Ri titty folaro, laddie O,
Ri titty folaro, dido.

I've created a Tune Req thread, but little joy.

I've found that the verses can be sung to the tune of Gallant Poacher, but really would love to find the real one, chorus un o'

Perhaps I'll have more luck when I go back to the museum.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: marcusjames
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:08 AM

Hi Brian,

More than some doubt. My dad says definitely not Becket, and so does my Aunty Barbara (died last weekend - aargh, she had loads of knowledge I was looking forward to picking)

Plus I saw of photo of him at the museum and it was completely different.

However - who is that chap then? He's definitely a Whitehead, I can tell that much, he looks a lot like my Grandad did.

The plot thickens...

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 06:32 AM

Good work, Marcus! Have you sorted out yet whether the photo of Beckett is really him? Seems to be some doubt about another photo you saw in Saddleworth Museum?

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: marcusjames
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 04:35 AM

As a parting note on this thread, I've set up a page on Facebook to log my findings about Becket and Harry Whitehead. There's a whole host of songs, poems, stories, letters and photos to come and you can find them here >> Whiteheads of Saddleworth , so don't forget to like the page if you want the updates.

Come and join the party!

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: marcusjames
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 07:33 PM

Great, I'm glad you like the sentiment. I'm yet to unleash it on the public at large.

You read it here first!

I'm a member now by the way, thanks to Max.

It would be very interesting to see if you have the sheets about, but do what you have to do first of course

I'll try and record the song next week. I'll be playing it on the front line at Barton Moss too (Salford fracking site, what would Ewan think? i've tried to rope Graham Nash in, but with little luck. I think he turned his back on Salford about 50 years ago)

Frack them indeed

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 03:48 PM

Marcus
I'm really up to my eyes in annotating about 400 songs for putting our recordings up on the County Library website otherwise I would have followed up my promise earlier and tried to find the original song-sheets to see if they came with a tune.
I'll get up in the loft and see if they are stored there as soon as I get a minute.
I think it's an excellent idea to write a comment on feckin' fracking in dialect verse, it sets the problems the process will almost certainly cause right in the heart of the countryside it will affect most.
One of the oil companies in Ireland are in dispute with a television station for them allowing a contributor from the public to say that it could effect the health of children - frack them!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 03:36 PM

Actually, Bury New Loom was the inspiration for this one:

No Fracking In Owd Lancashire

Ha' thi' 'ere fracking got government backing?
Is eawr democracy flawed?
Ther's little objection to large cash injection
P'raps th' back benchers ul warmly applaud

We write t'eawr local MP
In hope ther's sum thing that 'ee con
Say or con do, should political view
Bi' prompting promiscuous rape fro' abroad

No fracking in Owd Lancashire
We don't want thy machinery 'ere
Frum Blackpoo' to Owdham, we al' ready towd 'em
No fracking in Owd Lancashire

D' we lie down, Owd Bolland, an' tek it?
Palatine drilled to hoo's coo'er.
Then blasted an' fratcherd so gas can bi' captured
Poison will rise from her well springs f' shoo'er

No fracking in Owd Lancashire
We don't want thy machinery 'ere
Fro' Cheshire to Cumbria, "NO DIGGING UNNER"
No fracking in Owd Lancashire

Look out, look o'ver t' watter
Watch out f' wot's on t' line
F' whilst we'r a-dreaming, th''ole world is screaming
Ther's poison frum most fracking wells that they mine

No fracking in Owd Lancashire
We don't want thy machinery here
Fro' t' green Yorkshire Dales to th' foot 'ills of Wales
No fracking in Owd Lancashire

Ther's plenty of wark out i' Fracklond
Great news f' yer sun a' yer dotter
But when thi com wohm, you munnat let 'em roam
An' keep 'em away fro' spring watter.

No fracking in Owd Lancashire
We don't want thy machinery here
So now tha've bin towd, we'd rather g' cowd
No fracking in Owd Lancashire. D'yer hear?
No fracking in Owd Lancashire. A' wi clear?
No fracking in Owd Lancashire.

OKAY, I'm not dethroning Keats here, but it is a good song, if audience reception is owt to go by

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 03:33 PM

I meant Bury New Loom not Bowton's Yard by the way

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 12:25 PM

Thanks Jim, got the email.

I'll send the stuff again to you.

And thanks for your help with this - fingers crossed!

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 12:12 PM

Hi Marcus
Didn't get your Beckett stuff - thanks for your trouble.
Can you confirm your e-mail address - it keeps bouncing
Have tried to send a contact number for Peggy with details of where the songs were filed, suggesting you contact her
Regarding dialect writing, I'm no expert, but I've always believed poets like Axon and Waugh were fairly accurate, so comparing their writing to your own seems a fairly safe way to go - should be easy enough to find some of their stuff in your part of the country - local libraries are a tremendous help in rural areas, I've found.
From a layman's point of view, it reads just like Harry Boardman used to sound as I remember him
Know what you mean by dialect experts - worse than bloody wine posers, some of them.
Best
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 10:40 AM

Whilst you folks are still here, I'd like to cheekily get your opinions on some Lancashire dialect I have been writing.

I'm not sure if I'll get flamed by purists of the dialect scene, but from what I can tell, dialect varied from writer to writer and each had their own style and spelling. I'd be interested to hear what anyone thought. It's autobiographical.

Aw'm A Joiner's Lad   

Aw'm a joiner's lad, Aw cum frum Lancasheer.
Tha'll awlus 'ear us singing, cos mi' heart is full o' cheer.
Bi' day Aw mek noo wind'ers, fettle rooves an' men' rip'eers.
Bi' neet Aw'm singing in the pub, an' supping fruthy beer.

Aw'm a joiner's lad, Aw cum froo Owdham way.
Us grandad wur a joiner, an' us fa'ther follerd sway.
As a lad, Aw thowt ee's warkshop wur a grand owd place to be,
Wi' sa'wdus piled up t' thi' knees, an' o' tha' leawd machinery.

Aw'm a joiner's lad. Aw cum frum Saddleworth,
Us fa'ther wur a Dobcrosser fr' t' moment o' ee's birth.
We awlus did together, an' 'ee larnt mi o' mi' wark.
Bi' th' Austerland's owd chimney was weer Aw med mi' mark.

Neaw, Aw'm full grew'n, mi' hands are full o' segs
Cose Aw'm awlus fitching wood.
Aw luv the touch an' smell o' it, theer's nobbut else as good.
Aw've a rule in mi' fob, Aw've a 'ammer bi' mi' side,
An' a pencil ut back o' th' ear.
Fowk have said that Aw'm fair good, an' Aw'm awlus summat near.

Aw'm a joiner's lad, Aw cum frum Lancasheer.
Tha'll awlus 'ear us singing cose mi heart is full o' cheer.
Bi' day Aw mek new wind'ers, fettle rooves an' men' rip'eers.
Bi' neet Aw'm singing in the pub, an' supping fruthy beer.

Aw med mi sel' a 'at stand fro' a packing crate Aw found.
Happen it wer mango wood, it's th' best 'at stand around.
Th' nee'als ut war in it, well, Aw bent 'em up fur 'ooks.
It's stands bi'side the shelving that Aw med fur o' mi' b'ooks.

Aw've med tebbles an' churs, an' a flart o' curly sturs,
An' a cubbert f' mi owd guitar,
Gates an' doo'rs, an' fences an' floo'rs,
An' sum thin's jus' f' loo'king.
Aw'll mek a grandfa'ther clock frum th' owd wood stock,
Wi' a skirt a t' bottom, an' a finial a-top,
An' theaw'll 'ear me singing if tha's walking by mi' shop.

Aw 'um a little tune as Aw get on wi' mi' wark.
Aw scribble words ut noonin, mi' pencil's awlus sharp.
Bi' t' time Aw'm 'eaded wohm-ward, Aw've a pretty good idea.
O' what Aw'm going t' sing t' neet, f' them ut's gathered 'ere.

Aw'm a joiner's lad, Aw cum frum Lancasheer.
Theaw'll awlus 'ear us singing cose mi heart is full o' cheer.
Bi' day Aw mek new wind'ers, fettle rooves an' men' rip'eers.
Bi' neet Aw'm singing in the pub an' supping fruthy beer.


                                                                                M.J.K.Whitehead


I don't know how many people are still writing in this style.

Actually, it's lyrics to a song I've written, again, I'm hoping to perform it soon.

It was inspired by listening to Mark Dowding, in fact, it came to me after hearing his first couple of verses of Bowton's Yard, although I quickly deviated from that melody.

Most of the verses can be sung to the tune of Bowton's yard, apart from the two longer ones, which pick up pace a bit.

Again, I'm hoping to take advantage of the recording equipment Mark is bringing to Bancroft Mill in about three weeks, so I should be able to let you hear it then. I hope you enjoy it as a poem.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 10:26 AM

Hi Ian. I've sent a message asking 'Joe Offer' to make me a member, but I've heard nowt back.

Jim, I agree about the chorus being too much. It was suggestion made in Palmer's book, but then again he only had 16 verses.

I've now got 29 verses to it. I just recorded it onto my phone to help me learn the new ones you sent me. Just a shed over 5 mins, should be enough for anyone. The thing I like about performing unaccompanied is that I can really get into doing some actions and expressions to support the story.

I've sent you a copy of Becket's memoirs a week ago or so, as well as some other Becket related stuff. If I got the right email that is. If not, drop me a line - marcuswhitehead @ msn.com and I'll resend.

I spoke to Ruskin college about getting hold of Ewan's notes/sheets. The chap said he'd give me Peggy's contact details o ask permission, but I think he quickly changed his mind, saying he would contact her, but I've not heard owt since.

"Th' owd chap came ower the bank" is funny, but no, I've not heard it. But then again, I've only just got into these old folk tunes, literally since the start of the thread when I was looking for info on Becket and H.B.. It's funny, but they really seem to speak to me, probably because of the connection.

I am however meeting John Howarth from th' Owdham Tinkers in a couple of weeks, and I'll be sure to ask him about it for you. I'll also be seeing Mark Dowding and 'Lancashire' Sid Calderbank soon, and I get the impression that what they don't know about Lancashire tunes isn't worth knowing.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 09:44 AM

No problem with deviating from the words Marcus - I do it all the time.
The idea of unnecessarily lengthening a song with 23 verses would daunt most audiences.
I found when I did perform if that the rhythm of the song fits in perfectly with the picture of two men moving down a field swinging scythes it helps the movement of the narrative.
I had occasion to learn to use a scythe when we moved into this house 15 years ago and was forced to tackle the acre of field we laughingly refer to as a garden - song and physical motion - horse and carriage, as they say.
I can't see how a chorus can be anything but an encumbrance.
MacColl was the one who introduced it to the revival as far as I',m concerned, never heard anybody else perform it.   
Glad you came back Marcus; I was intending to re-open this thread and ask you about a song Ewan sang which he and Joan recorded during the making of the Ballad Hunters
It's called 'T'owld Chap Cam o'er the Bank' an extremely bawdy version of Seven Night's Drunk.
I learned it years ago, but have always had to be circumspect in choosing when I sang it - I haven't sung it since we moved here; not sure that Catholic Ireland is ready for it!
Have you come across it at all?
Jim Carroll

TH' OWD CHAP CAME OWER THE BANK.   
From the singing of Harold Sladen, Openshaw, Manchester, Easter 1934.

Th' owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a pair of mucky clogs where his owd clogs should be
Come Here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see,
How come this pair of mucky clogs where my owd clogs should be ?
Oh you owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be
They're just a couple of pickle jars me owd mam sent to me
Oh I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But girt hob-nails on pickle jars I've never seen before.

Th' owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a coat on back o' t' door where his owd coat should be,
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see
How come this coat on t' back o' t' door where my owd coat should be ?
0 you owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
It's just an owd pudding cloth me owd mam sent to me.
Oh I've been ower hills and dales me lass and many a grassy moor.
But buttons on a pudding cloth I've never seen before.

Th' owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a head on t' pillow where his owd head should be
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see
How come this head on t' pillow where my owd head should be ?
Oh you owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be
That's just a girt big turnip me owd mam sent to me,
I've been ower hills and dales me lass and many a grassy moor
But a girt big turnip full of teeth I've never seen before.

T' owd chap come ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a pair of hairy cods where his owd cods should be
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see
How come this pair of hairy cods where my owd cods should be
Oh you owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
They're just a couple of garden spuds me owd mam sent to me
Oh I've been ower hills and dales me lass and many a grassy moor
But garden spuds with airs on I never saw before.

T' owd chap come ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a great big standing prick where his owd prick should be
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see
How come this girt big standing prick where my owd prick should be
Oh you owd bugger, you daft bugger it's plain as plain can be
It's just a home grown carrot me owd mam sent to me
Oh I've been ower hills and dales me lass and manv a grassy moor
But a carrot diggin' a girt big hoyle I never seen before

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 07:46 AM

Hi Marcus,
Why don't you join this forum? There is no down-side to it as far as I can see and you have made a major contribution to one of the most interesting threads I have read recently.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 06:52 AM

I'm going to perform Mowing Match in a couple of weeks, and I think there may be some recording equipment present, so hopefully there will be something for you all to listen to.

I'm going to piece together the Becket verses with the Wrigley verses.

You implied you might have faced a lynch mob, Jim, had you deviated from the version you had. Does this mean there were people who actually knew it well? Where are they from? Are they still about?

I'm hoping to meet a chap called Ron Williams soon, and I'm hoping too that he can shed light on it, he's from Saddleworth.

By the way, did you get my email, Jim? I can't pm you because I'm a guest.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 06:19 AM

I just learnt that sadly the thread starter, 8 Pints, is no longer with us.

I'm sorry to hear that. If it wasn't for his initial interest, none of this would have started.

So here's to 8 Pints.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 06:19 AM

Sorry - me again, couldn't resist
Some kind soul just sent me a link to David Attenborough's programme.
Sounds wonderful, but nearly choked on my toast to hear Ewan introduced as a fine powerful singer followed by Ian Campbell singing Shoals of Herring - Ewan would have loved it...!!!!
Look out for thunder-flashes and lightning bolts if you live in the vicinity of Richmond Hill (that's where Attenborough lived when I rewired his neighbor's lights many years ago)
Made my day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 03:43 AM

"I'm blown away, it's like walking into a room full of legends"
You mean like the Gorgon or the Cyclops?
Can I make a point here
Whatever I think about MacColl is a personal thing based on my understanding of what he did for singing and how it affected Pat and my work - nothing more.
It was enough to have known two singers at the head of their field who were prepared to throw their home and collection of recordings and book open to researchers and wannabe singers and to devote one night a week of their time for nearly ten years to newbies like Pat and I to help us to improve our singing - I never met anybody else on the scene prepared to do that.
The work we did in the Critics Group (I was only a member for a few years, Pat longer) was ground-breaking and unique - many of the sessions were recorded and now reside in archives.
They were very much carried out on the suck-it-and-see basis, taking it on if it worked, moving on if it didn't.
They were planned with a view to improving standards on a club scene where the merest whisper of working on understanding the technique, function or emotional content of folk song in order to improve their performance, would invariably be met with crucifix and garlic to ward off impending evil.
Pat and I embarked on collecting in 1973, not just to get more songs, but to try and get some understanding of what the songs meant to people like Walter Pardon, Mikeen McCarthy, Tom Lenihan, Martin Reidy, and all the wonderful old singers we met over the years.
We both decided that we couldn't do this while working on our own singing at the same time - something had to go - singing went.
Even so, what we did was an extension of what we did in the Critics Group and we found that much we learned from the old singers followed on with what we were struggling with in the Group.
As far as motivation and emotional understanding of the songs were concerned they grew up with what we were struggling to achieve - especially so with Walter Pardon.
One of the great black holes in our knowledge of traditional song is due entirely to the fact that, while many collectors dedicated their lives to gathering in the songs, and in doing so, left us an invaluable legacy. virtually none of them had the time, nor the inclination to ask the people like Beckett Whitehead, Harry Cox, Jeannie Robertson... and all the others who gave us our repertoires, what the songs meant to them, what they felt about them, how they understood them and applied that understanding to their singing and - most of all, how those songs fitted into their lives; what they meant to their communities - a great pity.
MacColl never pretended to be someone who faithfully and accurately produced what he heard from traditional singers, he estimated quite early that the singing tradition in the main, in Britain anyway, was on its last legs and was being remembered rather than being performed.   
He didn't attempt to imitate what he heard and and had little time for those who did - he had no compunction in improving the songs to suit what he wanted to do with them.
Having said that, the first thing he said to anybody who asked his advice was, "Go and listen to the old men and women singers, take what they have to offer and use it to make the songs your own, and if you feel the inclination, lift the corner and find out what's underneath, that's all part of the making of a singer"
I don't remember ever having got a better piece of advice (except perhaps "respect the girl and don't leave her with something she doesn't want or need"!!)
Sorry to bang on so much - just wanted to amke clear that MacColl was no towering folklorist or ethnomusicologist, he wasn't a great academic and I believe he mistrusted much folk academia.
He evolved a brilliant (in my opinion) system for improving his own singing and he was generous enough to pass it on to others, to pas it on to others, to pass it on to others...... an so ad infinitum.
Nuff said about MacColl, I think
Jim Carroll
Incidentally - I returned to singing a couple of years ago - I'm now far too old to have become a better singer than I was (if I ever was) but putting together what we did with Ewan and the old singers, I'm certainly enjoying singing them far more than can ever remember (when I can remember anything nowadays!)

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 01:43 AM

I'm blown away, it's like walking into a room full of legends

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 02:07 PM

Sorry for delay in response - just got our power supply back after two days absence still blinking at the light.
Hi Derek
The last e-mail I sent you (t an extremely stressful time) remains the same - would be delighted to get the article
Marcus,
The text I put up for Mowing Match is the one I got from Ewan - if it didn't come from Becket, I have no idea where it came from.
It's unlikely that Ewan reworked it as he never sang it - maybe Ruskin can shed some light on it.
Brian;
Ewan had recorded Famous Flower on one of the three albums of Child Ballads he did for Folkways - the tune caught his fancy then and he began to use it for numerous songs.
When Peggy produced The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook she contacted us for suggestions for the sources of his tunes; it was than I began to see how he worked his tunes, though I was present at several of his 'humming sessions.
Must go and help warm the bloody house up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 11:06 AM

Agreed... an excellent thread. It was just missing the late Malcolm Douglas's knowledge.
Derek

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: C Stuart Cook
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 02:46 AM

This has been a good Mudcat thread with pretty well none of the descent into trivial one liners and insults.

Plus it's given Jim the chance to be simply informative about Ewan rather than having to get the white charger out of the stable, the bugle poilshed up and charge over the hill to the defence.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 12:32 PM

I'm not flaming you by the way, I just find it fascinating, and I'm very grateful for you responses

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Marcus Whitehead
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 11:57 AM

Thanks ever so much, Brian, and Jim.

I certainly came to the right place at mudcat.

I thought you might like to hear my comments on the lyrics for Mowing Match

It amused me to read some of the verses you quoted, especially with the with the Gaelic 'frae' thrown in, which certainly wouldn't have been used, rather 'frum' (from).

I can see how the Lancashire dialect was misunderstood by whoever notated the lyrics.

I'm taking Becket's version as gospel, as it would ring true that Curly (Kirby) was from Friermere rather than the fictitious Tree End Clough. Friermere is a hamlet at the top end of Delph where the scene is set.

The match was fought at Brimmy Croft, which is higher still than the Top End, at Diggle

Tunstead is a real place, but is actually by Friezland at the lower end, where Tom o' Fearnlee came from, not the top-ender Curly. Actually the place is called Fern Lea, in Greenfield.

According to Becket, Curly came from "Mills's up i' th' wood". This would make sense as Mill Wood is at the Top End.

Another variation is the line "all the mowers fight". Becket sings 'oather (oh-the) mow or feight' which means either - he could either mow or fight.

I think that Curly told Tom "tha munnat bullock me" meaning you mustn't push me around. My dad even thins that the original may have been bollock, but that Becket toned it down for the BBC. I'm not sure about this, as H.B. (Becket's cousin, and renowned dialect poet) was never known to swear, and neither were my Grandad or Grandma, it just wasn't done and I reckon Becket would be the same.

He also says "this day I'll let this dee" meaning he will let it the quarrel die. He was just issuing a warning.

On the verse naming people who were there -

I'm still working on this, but i know that Bill o' Brebs refers to William Bradbury who is noted in Anthology of Saddleworth Verse & Prose.

A Small Benny is known to have worked at the Saddleworth Picture House, and also a cinema use Delph Mechanics Club, although this must have been 1920's at the earliest and according to RoyPalmer the match was fought in 1842. It could be that Small Benny was named after his dad?

I do wonder where Palmer got his description from, probably one of Ammon Wrigley books which i can't afford at the moment.

Pretty sure that Becket refers to "boatman" rather than bowman, and my dad says he's read about a character called boatman, although i've not found that yet.

There war mont a "rare owd hound" accompanying the trail hunters

The lads from Grange and Castleshaw weren't 'horse whippers' they were 'all swipper'.
Swipper means super

All those "shore-edge scousers", lads from the shores of liverpool, came although Wrigley refers to "tossers", but Becket clearly says "scawsers"

All the Brewery Weighvers were sitting in a row. There was a weaving mill called Brewery mill.

"Curly's wife spoke up i' thrung" Called out from the crowd, the throng.

The rest of the verses vary from the ones from Wrigley, but it's delight to hear the end of the tale.

The place names of Waterside and Bleak-Hey ring true.

Suspect that Harry of Turney Bank was sent for to decide who had won - Thurston Clough was a way away from the match.

Many thanks again. I'm sure there will be more to add to this story.

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:07 AM

"Ewan had a habit of adapting established tunes he wasn't satisfied with by humming them around the house and playing around with them slightly until they suited him, so he might well have done this with this one... Shoals of Herring and Freeborn Man are both adaptations of a Gavin Greig version of Famous Flower of Serving Men - his favourite source-tune"

Jim, that is fascinating. I've had a look at that Gavin Greig tune, and the first phrase is certainly very similar to 'Shoals of Herring' - but you can see how MaColl tweaked the tune from that point on, dragging it up an octave and shifting it around to create a melody that's much more striking and lyrical than the original ballad tune. It's a masterpiece of original composition from a traditional base. For 'Freeborn Man' he seems to have taken the tune on a more complicated journey, but the footmarks are still there.

I also rechecked the 'Whittingham Fair' tune you mentioned. Like the MaColl tune for 'Scarborough', it is indeed 'minorized', although it's Aeolian rather than Dorian. The other striking thing about it is that the second line ("Remember me...") goes up an octave above the tonic, which is exactly what the MacColl tune does at that point, but is quite rare otherwise. If it's not Mark Anderson's (and there seems to be no conclusive evidence one way or the other), it's very plausible that a new tune for 'Scarborough Fair' emerged in exactly the way you've described for 'Shoals of Herring'.

You should read the article Derek is referring to. It was actually Martin Carthy, not the feature's author Mike Bettison, who suggested that MacColl might have written the tune for 'Scarborough'. Bettison met Anderson's grandson and researched the MacColl-Seeger archive at Ruskin College, but was unable to find any recording or notation of Anderson's version.

I was inspired by that article to look up some of the recordings of Mark Anderson's singing in the Lomax archive at the Cultural Equity website. Enter 'Anderson' in the search box. Here's a nice one: The Bonny Moorhen

Given Jim's point about MacColl reworking tunes and using the same source material more than once, I'm even more intrigued that his 'Four Loom Weaver' tune is so like 'Scarborough Fair'!

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 05:57 AM

Fascinating stuff, Jim, as always.
I am not so sure you get copies of English Dance & Song, but if you confirm your email address to me, I'll see about sending you a pdf of the Scarborough Fair article which I think you'll find of interest, and may well be able to add to. Without broadcasting my email address here, you can find it on the EFDSS site under EDS.
Derek

Subject: RE: Becket Whitehead, Delph, Saddleworth, UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 03:53 AM

Hi Marcus
These are the words of the Mowing Match that I was given by Ewan and Peggy (23 verses) - no idea of how they compare with yours but I assume they came from his work for the Ballad Hunters - they differ from Palmer's - dug them out yesterday or I would have sent them sooner.
I haven't sung most of my songs since we started collecting in 1973 so I couldn't give it from memory
If I can find the original sheet it may have a written tune.
As the version I learned has 23 verses I would never have dared introduce a chorus for fear of having to face a lynch mob.
It's a beautiful action and it's easy to picture the progression of the match while you're singing it - it really doesn't need a chorus.
As Palmer says i his book, the tune is The Nutting Girl (With Henry Hunt We'll Go) - that's the way I learned it, so if the air is included on the original sheet I must have got it from there.
As I said, the BBC project was a head-hunting trip, very few singers were recorded in depth - it was very much a case of taking the first few songs that came into the singers heads, then driving off to find another one - it's sad to thing of how many songs were missed that way - not to mention the masses of information and opinions that the singers had.
Becket with his interest in local history must have been a gold mine, given his involvement in Local History.
I would love to know ore about him and his interests
I thought we had all of Ewan's albums, but not familiar with that one - which may be an American re-issue.
If you P.M. me an address I''ll let you have a copy of ours.
Richard
You are right about Whittingham Fair; it's from Stokoe and Reavey's Northumbrian Minstrelsy - memory isn't what it was.
Ewan had a habit of adapting established tunes he wasn't satisfied with by humming them around the house and playing around with them slightly until they suited him, so he might well have done this with this one.
He did this with the songs he wrote himself - he'd select a tune he liked and play about with it until he was satisfies with it - used to drive Peggy barmy.
Shoals of Herring and Freeborn Man are both adaptations of a Gavin Greig version of Famous Flower of Serving Men - his favourite source-tune   
On the other hand, he attributed the song to the singing of lead miner Mark Anderson, so it's quite possible that Scarborough Fair was doing the rounds in the North of England when he recorded it - the Minstrelsy tune seems to be a minorised (speaking as a non-musician) version of the one he got from Anderson.
Stuart.
Thanks again for the information on Ewan's former residence - would love a photo of the area and any information of their staying there - will PM you with an e-mail address.
I think I actually remember hearing 'Landscape with Chimneys' and a couple of other programmes of a similar nature as a youth - the songs didn't take until a dozen years later.
Ewan was odd with accents.
I lived with them for some time and sitting in on a conversation between him and his mother, Betsy was like sitting behind a couple of foreigners on a bus - it was so 'braid Scots'.
He was a Salford lad, brought up in a Scots household that took in Scots lodgers - a mixter-maxter of accents.
His own accent gradually evolved into neutral, but he often drew from his childhood background for his singing - it never worried me as it seems to do others.   
In the early days, he sang with an American, Irish and Liverpool accent - as a Liverpudlian the latter often made me cringe and he once told me he couldn't bear to listen to his early recordings, so I assume they didn't impress him too much in later life.
I don't think it had anything to do with his being an actor as much as it did his wanting to explore the entire repertoire.
In the fifties Alan Lomax visits Britain (on the run from McCarthy) and rapped Ewan and Bert Lloyd's knuckles for not singing songs from their own backgrounds, (Bert was singing cowboy songs and blues too apparently) so Ewan embarked on a policy of opening up the British repertoire (and has been criticised for doing so ever since).
Jim Carroll


THE MOWING MATCH
1    Come all you jolly sporting men
Who love good ale to quaff,
I'll tell you of a moving match
Took place at Brindley Croft.

2    There war Kirby up at Tree-end Clough
And a lad from t' lower-end,
And what those two lads did that day,
Their fame'll never end.

3    Now, Kirkby wur a Tunstead man,
Frae t'houses up i' t' wood,
Among then top-end movers
There war not one so good.

4    And of a' these lads i' Friezeland,
And chaps that moved right weel,
There war one ca'd Tom o' Fearny Lee,
'T could make 'em come to heel.

5    They came up out of Friezeland,
Wi' scythes 'bout shoulder height,
The Lanky lad he carried t'sway,
He could all the movers fight.

6    But Kirkby he stepped up and said,
"Tha munna bother me,
For if that does, I'll tan thy hide,
This day I'll let thi see."

7    There were Bill o' Breadstrup, Cowtail,
Delph-Johnny and Singing Tom,
Small Benny and Bold Bowman,
Frae't lower-end did come.

8    There war many an owd trail-hunter,
And many a real owd un,
And t'finest lads at wrestling
For fifty miles around.

9    Free Grange and Castle-Shaw they come,
Horse-whipper lads so strong,
Wi' necks as red as fighting cocks,
And backs as broad's as long.

1O    An' all these short-head starters.
An' gamblers an' all,
And all those privily wives
They were sitting in a row.
11    Then Krkby's wife spoke up in front,
"Now Jack, my lad," said she;
"If that gets licked wi' t'lower-end,
Tha'll bide no more wi' me."

12    Then Bandy Jack o' Waterside,
Be held the starting gun,
"Come on," he said, "you bold young lads,
It's time to start the fun."

13    T' lower-end lad was up on 'tleft,
And Kirkby down on t'right,
Their scythes were held dipped into t'grass,
A good and manly sight.

14    Then Bandy Jack o' Waterside,
He fired the starting gun,
And off these mighty mowers went,
T'battle had begun.

15    Wi' flashing scythes these two stout lads
Went chargin' up the field,
Each stroke laid low two yards o' grass,
And neither one would yield.

16    Stroke for stroke they both advanced,
Until the turning-row,
Then Kirkby made a wider sweep
An' t'crowd all shouted, "Go!"

17    T' sweat wur glistening on their backs
And running in t'lads eyes,
But neither one'd mop his face
For fear he'd lose the prize.

18    And when t'owd clocker shouted "Time!"
They both were well-nigh done,
T'crowd wur roaring fit to burst
To see which one had won.

19   Then Bandy lack o' Waterside,
And Gibby from Bleak-Hey,
They both agreed that t'Lower-end lad,
Had won the match that day.

2O    But Kirkby wur not satisfied
About his measurement,
So for Harry o' Thurston-Clough
Two willing lads were seat.

21    And Barry wi' his measuring rod,
He knelt down there i' t'field,
And soon he said t'Lower-end lad
To Kirkby'd have to yield.

22    T'Lower-end lad had cut more length,
But Kirkby'd cut more grass;
A mighty cheer rose up from
Every Friezeland lad and lass.

23    So Kirkby won the mowing-match,
And that concludes my tale,
So new we'll toast good sportsmen all.
In a glass of Friezeland ale.