BS: Recycled Bin

Subject: BS: Recycled Bin
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 05:15 PM

Help.
I've deleted files from a CD-R by mistake. They are not in my recycle bin so has anyone got any idea where they are? Have I lost them?

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 05:24 PM

No--they are still on the CDR. most likely, unless you reburned it. If not, then they may be gone. Try ejecting and re-inserting the CD.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 05:30 PM

Tried that Amos. Didn't work...thanks anyway. I think they might still be on the disc. The memory shows way over what's "on" it. I've tried looking at hidden files as well but they're not there either.

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 05:45 PM

I'd suggest shutting the system all the way down, then bringing it back up from scratch and then reinserting the CD if you haven't done so.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 07:04 PM

CD-R or CD-RW? If it's a rewritable (RW), you could indeed have deleted the files and they aren't coming back. All the Windows OS's, as far as I can recall at this moment, do NOT put deleted files from removable media (like floppies, zip drives and CD-RWs) into the Recycle Bin.

If it's a write-once (CD-R), you couldn't have deleted them and they shouldn't have disappeared from your folder list anyway. No need to restart, just do a View --> Refresh on the toolbar (or hit F5).

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 07:24 PM

Thanks
I got them back.

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 07:33 PM

Now that you've gotten them back, tell us how you did it in case we do the same thing some day.

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 07:45 PM

I have a Roxio CD creator that has a facility whereby you can repair CDs and undelete files. phew!

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 07:45 PM

Nicole C -

Most burners allow you to use a CD-R as an "open" data disk. You can add and/or delete files as long as there is free space on the disk.

When you write the files the first time, they are burned on the disk, and cannot be changed. You can, however, write a new "index file" that includes files previously on the CD along with any that you add, but that doesn't list any files that you "delete." The "deleted" files, are still burned on the disk, but since there's no index to them, they cannot be accessed.

Unfortunately, once the "new" index is written, the "old" index cannot be accessed - hence there is no known way to recover the "deleted" files from the CD.

Only files deleted from your hard drives are saved in the Recycle Bin. Files deleted from floppies, ZIPs, and other "removable media" drives do not ever go there.

In all probability, those files are GONE.

sorry

John

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: Brakn
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 07:44 AM

John I did get them back.

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 08:13 AM

OK, it looks like the problem is solved but...

John,

I know nothing about the situation with CDs but going back in time would suggest to me that recovery even without the index (FAT) would be possible as long as data had not been over-written.

It's ages since I've done anything like this and have only done it in DOS. In those days, tools like Norton Utilities had a direct read of sectors and deleting only deleted (in fact marked as available for re-use by an "@" symbol as the first character in the "Index" I think).

I've only pieced together a couple of "lost" text files but it would at least be possible to recover other files. I wonder what tools the police forensic teams have to recover "deleted" files...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: Bert
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 11:59 AM

Ah, remember the good old days of the bit editor! if your data hadn't been overwritten you could retrieve anything. Do they still make those things? I haven't seen one in years.

Subject: RE: BS: Recycled Bin
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 12:05 PM

The good news that the files were recovered came during a rather long interruption while writing. I should have checked for new posts before hitting the go-button.

It would appear that the CD was being used in what Roxio calls "directCD," which sets up the CD so that you can "drag and drop" files onto (and off of) it. At least that's the only setup I can find where there's a "repair" or "recover" function in mine (without digging too deeply). This "directCD" setup can be done with a CD-R or CD-R/W disk, but differs from a typical "magnetic" disk in several ways. I don't use this system, so I'm not too familiar with all the details.

If you create a normal (not a drag-and-drop) "data CD," you can add or delete files if it's "left open," which is the normal mode of operation. The original "directory" can't be changed, so each time you modify the CD, a complete new directory structure (similar to a FAT) is written. The location of files that you "leave on" from a previous burn must be copied to the new directory, and the locations of any new files are added there.

A file that is "deleted" is still burned into the CD surface, but is simply left out of the new directory, as is the "old directory" that told where the "prior burn" files were. The OLD directory is still on the disk, but the CD drive will only read the newest directory, and there's no simple/standard method for looking at the old one. Thus the CD-reader can't tell where those omitted files are - and hence can't read them.

It would be "theoretically" possible to scan the disk for "old directories," either to read the "deleted files" or to burn their locations into a new directory along with the other, readable, files. That ability may, in fact, be there in some burner software; but I haven't needed it so I haven't look too far.

It's also of some significance that the space occupied by the "deleted" files, and space occupied by prior directories cannot be "reclaimed" on a CD-R, so the content shown by a DIR command or by Explorer may be much less than the "rated size" of the disk, and the disk may still be full. It's entirely possible, in fact, to have a disk that's "full" but that has no accessible files on it. [You may (or may not) have noticed that Explorer doesn't show a "Disk Free Space" for a CD - because it has no way of knowing how much of the disk may remain "usable." A DOS DIR command also will generally show "0 bytes free" regardless of any "virgin" space remaining on a CD-R.]

As a practical matter, unless your burner software includes a "repair" feature and you've used a burn mode where it's supported, recovering a "deleted" file on a CD-R is not too practical. And they DO NOT go to the Recycle bin!

Anything with data on it can be "recovered," and there are businesses who specialize in that sort of thing. Failed hard drives are their bread-and-butter job. Generally, they're not even outrageously expensive, if you've got critical data that's really needed; but I haven't heard of any that can get stuff back overnight (6 months - or more - isn't unusual).

John