BS: Global positioning system

Subject: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 06:38 PM

Anyone got/use a hand-held GPS device? As I prepare to go into the forest here on Vancouver Island hunting mushrooms in the fall I was wondering if they are accurate enough to re-find good spots. They'd need to be within a few feet.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 06:46 PM

I swear, BigPinkLad, I thought that DG had started another thread warning of Big Brother. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 06:52 PM

They'll refind within a few minutes pretty damn accurately - the best demo I've seen was someone driving around a roundabout about 15ft diameter, and a nice circle appearing on the screen. But over time their accuracy drifts, so if you followed a route and then returned to your starting point, there's no guarantee the trace would join up more accurately than 10-20 yards at best.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 06:52 PM

Here's a paper on Returning To A Position that may help. There is quite a lot of material on the Net about GPS accuracy just type gps-accuracy into Google.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:01 PM

Interestingly the small GPS's used in Yacts and Fishing boats tend to be more accurate than Admiralty Charts, at least on the smaller chart scales.

Never fix your "way points" to directly at a Navigation Mark - Without a good look out and change of course you could end up with loud expensive crunching noises !

Fact - I've cox'ed the marker launch in some Radar/GPS surveys on the Medway.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:33 PM

I have tested them with an accuracy of + - 2 meters. The Garmin company makes good ones.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:48 PM

Years ago I taught map and compass classes in the Mountaineers in Washington State (the basic climbing course). For all that GPS units are the way to go now, it pays to know how to use the map and compass and to carry them with you. I do hope they're still part of the Mountaineer's 10 Essentials list. Yup. Did a quick search--on the Mountaineers 10 essentials list, numbers 1 and 2 are still map and compass.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:15 PM

Depends not only on the number of satellites that you are receiving information from but also which ones they are. The reason for that involves spherical trig, so it can be a little difficult unless you are fairly good at math.

The short answer is that the accuracy you read on the GPS is fairly accurate, and can vary from the above mentioned ± 2M to around ±15M.

One other thing that should be mentioned is that for maximum accuracy in re-finding a spot, mark your position and find your position in the same data system. GPS's will convert between different ones, but I've found that it does introduce another error.

Good luck! I carry mine everwhere!

Lyle

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 11:30 PM

Learn to use a map and compass!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Do you want to be at the bequest and whim of international forces? A simple scrambling of the signal and you could be led into an enclosuer where you are V-chipped, hypnotized, drugged, and indoctrinated! Satalites are pawns of the ruling government. Be INDEPENDENT! Only the non-techno will survive!

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 01:59 AM

Whoa, twice in one year, Gargoyle agreed with me! Wonders never cease!

SRS

I didn't offer the drugged and indoctrinated scenario, tho, I was just thinking along the lines of falling off of a cliff in the dark or the rain).

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:13 AM

The military released them originally for public use with a built in error, so they would have the advantage, in a war!! However the later models, are more accurate, and some companies sell ancillary bits to remove this error. I use an LMS 240 on my boat, and I find it's spot on, but I always back it up with visual notes. Do the same, and you can't go wrong.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: fogie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 04:40 AM

You guys with compasses wait until the magnetic poles swithch- that'll larn ye! Anyone feel strongly about the need for two sets of GPS -the other one the EU is going to set up? This is supposed to be more accurate, than the present American one, and of course doesnt rely on the USA, should they consider pulling the plug, in event of a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:29 AM

We Europeans are jealous of don't trust GPS because it's made in theUSA we like to take a belt and braces approach to ensure that there's a backup system in case of failure. So we're going to spend Eu15Bn on one of our own! That'll teach you Americans, won't it? Damn! You got there first.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 09:04 AM

I have one, but rarely use it. Too much trouble and too slow to get three satellite fixes when I can pull out a compass and triangulate to within a few meter on a topo map in less than half the time.

Like SRS, I worry about dropping it. Or the batteries going dead without having replacements. Either of these things would happen when the need for it was critical.

If I needed to send someone my location I'd prefer a GPS since I don't know how to use a sextant. But if I'm lost there are other ways to show your location.

If you're looking to locate your patch of mushrooms, though, I'd suggest a map something like Cap'n Kidd used to show where he buried his treasure. A good mushroom patch is very much the same thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:21 PM

Giok:

The military did not add in error, exactly; they just limited the precision of the data that could be computed by civilian equipment. But that is out of the way now, a historical tidbit and no more.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:52 PM

Gargoyle/Rapaire, I can read a map, learned in the Boy Scouts and have a passion for them bordering on obsession. However, they don't help at all in finding one's way back to a square metre of duff in the middle of the forest -- millions of trees that look almost exactly alike! (As a matter of fact, I can't find a decent map of Vancouver Island anywhere). I need something that will record where I am precisely so I can get back to the same spot a year from now. I thought a GPS devise would help. What should I be paying for one anyway, and do they need maintainance?

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 04:39 PM

I know how to navigate by the stars, use a sextant, etc. After the first batch got over the growing pains and the feds released the other satellites, GPS is the way to go. Combined with an electronic emergency signal or EPIRB, it makes sailing a lot less risky. Not that I don't trust my own skills, but the best great navigation can do for you in an emergency is to give you the satisfaction of plotting exzctly where you died.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:10 PM

You can make yourself your own map, diagramming landmarks and pacing off distances. This will certainly date me, but in my Forest Service days of drawing maps (I drew lots of them to document reforestation surveys, thinning surveys, planting patterns, etc) it was a simple matter of choosing a point to start from, choosing the direction you were going to travel, watch your compass as you travel in that direction, and count your paces. We used "chains" as the unit of measure back then, sixty-six feet, and my pace was 13 1/2 paces per chain. Now they use 100' engineering tapes, but regardless of the unit of measure, simply measure the distance, make several passes to figure how many paces (the full stride, right, left, right) travel that distance, then keep count as you walk and make notes. If it isn't intruding on the wildness of the location (or advertising your spot) you could even build a cairn or use a bit of flagging down low at intervals to look for when you return. It isn't difficult.

If you find the mushrooms then make the map on your way out, every time you stop, TURN AROUND AND LOOK TO SEE WHERE YOU WERE because you need to see it from both directions or it will be difficult to find when you try to return even with the map.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:14 PM

Let's see now........Mushrooms; Aisle three, Produce, left hand side, about 3/4 of the way to the rear of the store.......6 varieties.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:17 PM

Is that what those little orange ribbons all over the bush are? Forestry markers? If you're in WA you're my next-door neighbour (or neighbor, even ;o) so I'm sure you're familiar with the type of forest I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:22 PM

How do you think they get there, Spaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:35 PM

PinkLad,

You can get good GPS for a couple of hundred dollars today. Garmin makes good ones.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:42 PM

Way back in 1963 my pace measured 104 steps to 100 meters, or 26 paces to 25 meters. Oddly enough, every time since then that I've had the chance to check the pace it's been exactly the same. (That's measured going and coming over broken ground.)

You'd be surprised how accurate you can get with a compass and pacing (no map).

I'd be willing to bet that the USGS has a topo map of Vancouver Island. I doubt that it would be considered classified military secrets, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:18 PM

The plastic flagging denotes different activities for the Forest Service and other forestry related organizations. Blue is used for partial cut areas, yellow for clearcuts, if you happen to be in or cross over an area laid out for logging. Other colors have to do with surveys and such. The idea is not to decorate the forest like christmastime with the stuff. A small piece (a few inches), not a huge long hank of it, placed at (for example) the point where you stop going one direction and change your course, is useful. A cairn would be less obtrusive, less obvious to all but those who are looking for it. Or look for landmarks that aren't going to go away easily and thus leave little trace of your travel.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:35 PM

Flagging comes on rolls with a hollow cardboard center of about 1 1/2 to 2 inches. The roll can start out about 5 inches across, and was usually first placed in the large side pocket of a cruiser's vest. As soon as it was small enough to fit into the breast pocket of the blue workshirts we typically worked in, it was put in there. Button the pocket, let the end hang out the top corner, and it was really handy to just pull the end, spinning the roll in your pocket and pulling off a chunk. Despite the convenience, it always felt a bit odd because it was rotating around my left nipple. (o) (o)

Yes, I know precisely the kind of forest you're talking about. I crave getting back to that climate from the heat of the Texas prairie. I'll trade devil's club for ticks, chiggars, venomous snakes, and 100+ degree days any time! Heck, that's why I'm laid up this month--I had my bunion fixed so I can hike again if I ever get back up there!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:01 PM

You did not advance far enough in Boy Scout map-reading....the "pin-pointing" of a particular spot is done through triangulation....when you can't see the forest for the trees you use p-lines....contours....terrain and species.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: beadie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 10:04 PM

I just picked up a Garmin unit a couple of weeks ago. The salesguy said (and I have no real reason to doubt him, since he said this after I bought the unit) that the local National Guard troops who were being called up for overseas duty were advised by their NCOs to put the government issue GPS units in the dumpster and go buy a civilian model because they were more reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 11:13 PM

Who is "you," Gargoyle? I've used all of those things. P-lines (preliminary lines) in the kind of forest he's walking through can just about finish you off. If you're planning a road you have to go over everything in the path along the proposed center line, often along an elevation contour, and it can be rugged. Why not suggest he run a profile from his car to his mushrooms? In my Forest Service work it meant you went straight in one direction up or down everything in the direct path of that bering until you had a clean shot from one point to another, with no ridges or such interfering with the movement of the cable that might be thousands of feet long (for a logging system).

Best for him to walk where it is easy to walk, marking landmarks as he goes, pacing it off, and if a marker is necessary, make one (as described above).

Fastest way to find where he is is to climb a tree and triangulate from there. Assuming there are any that are the suitable size for climbing (small enough). (I can't recommend a laundry cleaner for removing all of the pitch from your clothing if you do climb a tree--so climb at your own risk!)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 11:21 PM

A lot easier to set a waypoint and let the unit steer you back to it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: cyder_drinker
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:39 AM

Key word here is _Forest_, I reckon.
Thick leaf cover can block the handheld GPS unit's view of those satellites, and reduce accuracy. But it's worth a go, the Garmin e-trex series are great little units, I use one for geocaching.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:01 AM

I have a GPS310 by Global Positioning Systems, UK. Cost about 100 UKP and I am very pleased with it. What sold it to me rather the the cheaper Garmin unit was that it did UK grid references as well as lat/long. Not much good in Canada I know but...

The lower price ones do not guarantee the accuracy that The BPL needs though. I think mine only promises to be within 15 metres. Go for a more expensive one if you need pin-point stuff.

My mate Ged said more or less the same as Garg the first time I used it. We split into 2 parties and about 3 hours later Ged phoned us - lost! I do agree though about the ability to use map and compass. I use the GPS as much for fun as anything - It realy is good to have two sets of references. But I guess I realy am paranoid;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:02 AM

Sorry, for the ambiguity... the "you" is the Pinky of 29, July 3:53. For yourself Mr. Sage....PineSol (used in the USA for cleaning toilets and bathroom) poured directly on the pitch stains will removed the resins from cotton/poly blend fabrics in the regular wash cycle.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:48 AM

That makes sense, and is easy to remember.

Now what I'd like, when all of this is said and done, is a photo of TheBigPinkLad up atop a relatively youthful (therefore still climbable) Douglas fir, compass in one hand, GPS unit in the other, triangulating on his mushroom patch location. Which he hopefully doesn't squash after slithering uncontrollably back down the bole of his tree. . .

;-)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 01:07 PM

So if you don't hear from me after mid-September tell my wife she can donate my Gretch electric to the Mudcat auction ... ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:50 PM

Try a mix of kerosene and turps to thin out the pine tar. Then pretreat the clothing with a good detergent. It should do the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: BanjoRay
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 07:19 PM

My Garmin GPS is wonderful -it always knows exactly where it is. I, However, don't. All I know is it's somewhere around Meall a Buachaille in the Cairngorm mountains. I'm going to have to use old fashioned navigation methodology to locate a shop where I can obtain another one.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Gervase
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 01:13 PM

Nice bits of kit, but crap in cover - never trust your life to one! As has been said repeatedly, learn map & compass skills and work out your pacing until you can do it in your sleep, then carry the GPS as a backup.
Too many people have got into serious trouble relying on GPS. Besides, the false sense of security they bring tends to bring out the worst sort of people into the cuds. A bit like the effect AOL had on the Internet!

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 03:00 PM

Or as most RYA courses tell yer, use the GPS but be prepared to back it up with traditional methods of Navigation.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 10:46 PM

Germany

Canada

Rip the things out of your cars. Now. International terrorists have taken over all major govts and are beginning the massive taxation practices which will fund the 'perpetual war'. And you will be expected to pay for your own extermination partly through road-usage taxes calculated on readings from the GPS devices. Your pension funds will fail, your jobs will be converted to twenty-dollar-a-day busy work as the govts steal your land for failure to pay taxes. You will be herded into compact cities for eventual fumigation. All because you just had to have that GPS device. Take a hammer to it.

DG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 12:49 AM

Hey, Dreaded Guest, haven't seen you around for a while. Or perhaps we're not frequenting the same threads lately. Looks like you're running up to your usual speed!

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:17 PM

Hi Sage. So do you think summer is finally here? I'm a couple hundred miles south of you I think, and it finally hit a hundred degrees. Dog days.

Me, I've just been trying to alert people as delicately as I can to the fact that the barrel is pressed against the back of our heads and the hammer is cocked. But you know...folks want to talk about Bonnie Prince Billy and Schwarzenegger and such. And the marvelous new GPS systems. So I bark every once in a while. It's getting harder for people to deny the obvious, though. The old 'tin-foil hat' routine...'scuse me. That always makes me chuckle. Cops in black ski masks everywhere now, hovercraft/chips/cameras gonna police us, and people are still saying 'tin-foil hat kook' like some kind of rosary. The power of denial.

Hope all is well with you. Stay cool.

DG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 08:17 PM

DG--I hear on the Bill Moyer Now program that the House and Senate gave Bush MORE than he asked for in the Defense budget. You might want to listen to the program--Moyers is working hard to find a few nay-sayers to the Resident's plans for all of us.

It has been up in the 100+ degree range for most of July, and didn't disappoint for the first day of August. Dog days indeed!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 11:39 AM

Sorry, Sage, but Bill Moyers is a member of the CFR, and that group's stated goal is the dissolution of the United States. Among other things. Scroll down to the middle of the page and look at the television membership. All those people looking into the camera and lying to you...telling you America is bouncing back when THEY are helping to formulate and implement policies to kill this country. I can rarely watch TV anymore. It's ALL propaganda. Rather and Brokaw and Moyers plotting how to kill the US and then telling me 'the market took an upswing' just to divert me.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 11:49 AM

You can always bring your laptop with the wireless modem, and when you're thoroughly lost just log-in to Mudcat. My favorite answer is "Milky Way Galaxy" when my wife wants to know where we are in the boat as we're socked in by fog.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 01:37 PM

Council on Foreign Relations Mission

Council History

"The Council on Foreign Relations is dedicated to increasing America's understanding of the world and contributing ideas to U.S. foreign policy. The Council accomplishes this mainly by promoting constructive debates and discussions, clarifying world issues, and publishing Foreign Affairs, the leading journal on global issues.

Goals:
1. Add value to the public debate on international affairs.

2. Energize foreign policy discussions nationwide by making the Council a truly national organization with membership across the country.

3. Identify and nurture the next generation of foreign policy leaders.

4. Make the Council the source for ideas and clear and accurate information on key international issues for the interested public."

Yeah. Sounds really dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 01:44 PM

I have just installed GPS units on all of my guitar picks. I haven't lost one since. Sure they're a little unwieldy to play guitar with now...

...but they NEVER drop in the soundhole anymore.

and if they did, I'd know which end of the guitar to tip up to get it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:25 PM

Ulrike Marie Meinhof - journalist; member of Germany's "Baader-Meinhof" gang of the late 1960s and early 1970s
born on 10-7-1934 in Oldenburg, Germany
expired 5-9-1976 in Stuttgart, Germany   age 41   cause: hanged (prison suicide)

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 12:05 AM

Aww, DG--Joan Ganz Cooney is on that list--she's mother to Big Bird, Elmo, Bert and Ernie--and she's right there with Moyer. You're going to have to work a lot harder to convince me that this new world order is starting early, with toddlers. ;-)

I wonder if Oscar the Grouch carries around GPS in his trash can? Grouch Positioning System?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 09:33 AM

There are thousands of quotes by those people about how they are first going to get your kids, then you.

California...liberal...Feinstein and Boxer as Senators...support 'abortion rights'. The right of a woman to choose, blah blah blah. But they are Soviets. They are social engineers of the first order. The mega-govt the 'right wing' is putting together is going to be put into gear by the Feinstein/Boxers of the US. And THEN liberals will discover what's really going on. The phony distractions about political correctness will be crushed under the boot of totalitarianism. What good is 'the freedom to use my body as I choose' when that body is in a concentration camp?

Study that list. Those organizations TELL YOU what they want to do. The Bushes have said Communist China is the model for the future. The ChiComs now have travelling death vans that go province to province executing 'criminals'. Tens of millions of political prisoners. That is the future of world govt, according to the CFR.

But then you all know this. Your liberal Sierra Club steals land, your liberal gay rights cause just set up a 'gay high school' in New York. Like the good old days when the 'negroes' were separate but equal. Ruled unconstituional long ago yet here it is again...a gay high school so liberals can feel good about themselves. God you people don't think things through. The right wing you froth about is just getting the machinery ready to turn over to the Stalinistas, and most of you will go happily to your deaths rather than offend the sensitivities of the Chinese troops fixing to blow your heads off.

DG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 10:12 AM

wow.

Doesn't Roswell, NM figure into it anywhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 10:19 AM

Okay, I'll stop yanking your chain. It's too hot out to ask you to think this hard. But I'll just ask one more question, and hope the answer is easy:

DG, who did you vote for last time, federal or state or local? Did anyone represent your worldview? Or do you consider voting a pointless exercise?

Now, back to the GPS discussion.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 10:53 AM

Would it be too much to ask you good people who wish to address DG's ubiquitous agenda to start another damned thread to discuss it instead of changing the focus of the thread you're in? Perhaps you could start it as soon as you decide you want to reply, because you KNOW it's not gonna stop with that. Feel free to cross-link the old and new threads.

I'm getting tired of locating threads on searches only to find a handful of on-topic posts followed by some sort of debate on some side issue. Personal rant, but I suspect I might not be the only one who's sick of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 11:48 AM

Jeri, your scold is more disturbing than our nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 12:18 PM

To those who understand these things, how exactly does a GPS work? Is it satellite triangulation?

I can see a day when these devices are standard in cars, along with interactive road maps with your location plotted on them. Being as prone to taking wrong turns as I am, I can only hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 12:37 PM

Right, Jeri! The basic notion is triangulation from satellites based on time of signals. A tutorial on the fundamentals can be found on this page.   

You can find current low-price and high-proce models at The GPS Store online.

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 01:47 PM

Amos, thanks. I see they have the car version with maps - FOR AROUND A THOUSAND SMACKERS! I think I'll wait until I can order one from TV for only 19.95. (Or at least a lot less.)

John, it would be great if we could install tiny chips in our instruments so we could locate them with one of the GPS thingies. Imagine how easy it would be to find stolen instruments!

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 03:13 PM

The GPS device is a targetting system. It tells you and the govt where you are. You...so you can find fish or whatever, the govt...for taxation. The GPS device is a menace. It will lead to kill-switches in every car and the disabling of your vehicle for non-payment of taxes, for voting the wrong way, for THINKING the wrong way. The devices should be avoided at all costs and the industry producing them should wither and die from non-support.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 04:14 PM

Jeri,
I actually had that idea at one time -- seemed to make sense to me and I posted it here where it resulted in an interesting discussion. The disappointing upshot however, was that it would need a constant power source to work -- a source that would be combersome and hard to keep charged on a constant basis (I guess it requires more power than one might think).

If you could just get the thieves to plug in your instrument case wherever they take it.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 04:16 PM

Going back to the map discussion - a long way - someone mentioned geological maps. I don't know how varied the rocks are on Vancouver Island, but making notes of rock outcrops would be a good addition to other way finding methods - and related to mushroom locations, I should imagine.

Also, have you thought of taking a digital camera, and photographing important way points on the route, then saving them on the computer until time for the next trip, loading them back on the camera, and using it as a guide?

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 05:46 PM

The forests involved in this mushroom endeavor are dense with undergrowth that grows quickly. If he takes the camera he should also take a tripod and a closeup lens to photograph all of the beautiful understory plants. Some of my most gorgeous photos in that sort of forest are of things like the red berries atop a vividly green Devil's Club patch. Getting far enough back from big things that can act like landmarks might be difficult (or would involve a machete).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 06:15 PM

Story - supposed to be true.

Two yachtie types buy GPS's and they are determined to try them out.

Sailing along, on auto helm, below decks, on the radio to each other,

"And what does your GPS give as a postion >

" Lat this etc ", down to 2 decimal places of seconds.

" Funny, so does mine !"

"Crunch !!!!!" - Loud expensive noises !!!

" MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, this is Yacht......."

BTW The secret is not steering to a waypoint, but knowing when to stop steering to a way point !

Gareth - In cynical mode.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 08:45 PM

The Garmin Rhino sells for less than four hundree I think and includes a MGRS radio system. I am sure you can get a handheld GPS with maps for a lot less than a thousand. You don't need one "special for car", unless you cannot drive and watch aninstrument at the same time. Pull over, check your location and rsume driving in which case...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:30 AM

I dug out mine and blew the dust off this weekend. It is a Magellan GPS310 to be more precise than I was before. Well, precise to withing 15 metres...

For those interested in In-car ones check out these babies!

I'm more worried about people NOT knowing where I am than knowing where I am btw. As long as the government can find me I can never be lost;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:35 AM

Whoops - No good pointing you at my hotmail inbox is it:-? Try Here instead:-)

Seems a good and very reasonable alternative.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:49 AM

Jeri:

Garmin eTrex Legend GPS+Roads&Rec.Pkg.+FREE case
Includes: Wrist strap, PC interface cable, manual, US Roads & Rec. software, + FREE CASE $269.95

This is sufficient for most needs, I would think, unless you're going wilderness campimng.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Mark Clark
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 11:17 AM

A few points seem worth mentioning here.

• Most GPS units are not capable of reporting their position to anyone but the immediate user. They are receivers, not tranceivers. GPS positioning used on trucks, trains and some automobiles are coupled to a separate transmitter to report their position (and possibly other information) to their respective owners. The GPS sattelites do not receive information from GPS receivers.
  
• Many consumer level GPS receivers rely on a ground based differential signal to provide useful accuracy. A GPS receiver is placed on a tower at a precisely known point (lat., lon., elev.) and the difference between the precisely known location and the location reported by the GPS unit is sent as a radio signal to subscribing GPS receivers in the vicinity. The mobile GPS receiver uses the differential signal to improve the accuracy of the sattelite information.
  
• If one's present position is not within range of a differential signal to which the user is subscribed, the reported location may be much less accurate than supposed.
  
• Map providers such as DeLorme offer GPS devices along with maping software for your PDA or laptop computer. If your PDA and GPS receiver use replacable batteries you can be out in the wilderness for quite a long time without worring about power.
  
• Separating the GPS receiver from the display technology means you can update your display technology without replacing your GPS receiver.

GPS technology is very useful in many situations but if you're planning a wilderness trip (e.g., BWCA or Quetico) you'll be better served with a good compass such as the Silva Ranger and a good set of maps. These are almost universally recommended by experienced wilderness guides.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 11:35 AM

The Rhino from Garmin is unusual in that you can transmit your GPS data to another Rhino user, thus sharing locations amonmngst a group of people.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 04:30 PM

The millions and millions of GPS devices now being mandated for new cars most certainly ARE senders. I bet each of us has seen some local or national news story about how the bad guys were caught after the stolen car was disabled by 'satellites'. Rip the things out of your cars. Disable them now. Oregon is getting ready to tax by the mile, and they'll use GPS to do it. And some states are kicking around the idea of outlawing cars more than 5 years old (don't have GPS).

Gillette just ordered half a billion tiny little RFID chips...chips to put into their products...molded into the plastic bottles, etc. WalMart has directed 100 of its top suppliers to use the chips in order to continue selling. Soon, your face will be scanned at the checkout line and your complete shopping list will be entered into the database along with the list. Satellites will make a note of exactly how many miles you drove to and from the store. The data will be correlated to the RFID chips in the hems of your clothing, to make sure you are 'safe'...to make sure you are the person who bought that shirt a month ago.

And this will be going on while American borders remain wide open to CIA-imported terrorists during this time of 'war'. The war is against you, folks, and if you play with these weapons being used against you they will blow up in your face.

DG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 05:04 PM

Oh,my, you do yap on so!!

Thanks for trying so hard to wake us up.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 06:43 PM

I read recently of a game/semi-social activity called "caching" which uses GPS. It seems to be a non-competitive derivative of orienteering.

If you do a Google search you may well find a group of people who participate in your area.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Dave Swan
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:51 PM

Agreed, map and compass are a great way to naviate, and Silva makes a fine compass indeed. You still need to pull your head out of your descending colon to make them work. Searches are frequently launched for someone who has walked off his map.

D

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:57 AM

I still have my Silva "Ranger" compass that I bought back in 1971, and it still works great. I guess it's an antique by now. (Even has the little metal tab for setting declination).

Did you know that you can get many topo maps online now? I remember linking to some for Naemanson when he was headed to California to visit last year. Of course, printing all of those sheets of paper and affixing them together is a risky business if you're going someplace where compass navigation might be necessary--few maps are going to be as reliable as the USGS maps.

DG, I suppose you know that if you can find older versions of USGS maps to compare to new versions that a lot of things have been purposely taken off though they still exist on the ground. This is common practice in National Parks that don't want people trying to drive on old roads now contained within wilderness areas. Rather than leave this stuff alone so people who need that information can use it, they remove it so the fools on their ATVs won't go looking for them and tear the place up. Compensation for the lowest common denominator of map readers has compromised maps for all of us.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:12 AM

In the US, DeLorme publishes topographic maps of most states. Get them at your local sporting goods store if the book shops don't have them. The elevation intervals are somewhat variable - depending on the type of terrain in the area that's mapped, but I've found them accurate enough for most purposes in the few states (Kansas, Washington, Oregon, Oklahoma) that I've looked at. Recent issues of these also include GPS grid markings. They are probably not detailed enough to locate a mushroom; but you can locate landmarks from which to navigate locally (and to which you can return if you stay "local enough.")

As noted above, you can also get the laptop/GPS coordinated version from them.

For a little finer resolution, I've used oil lease maps (in Kansas) which don't show much topography, but do show property lines and indicate who owns the land, with somewhat variable accuracy (important if you need permission to tramp around there.) They often show buildings - including outbuildings - not often on more general maps. With a little research, you can likely find a more-or-less local "keeper of the maps" for oil and other mineral leases, and the maps are usually not particularly expensive. Since they're "locally published" they're usually apolitical and don't try to obscure anything.

For wilderness areas, there are some pretty good "hiking guides" that can be useful at least for locating the shortest route back to a way out. Mountaineers Books has an extensive line of guides covering many US wilderness areas. (And a few worldwide – "Hiking in China" was a recent one, and the Himalayas are quite popular with this bunch.) SRS noted the parent organization above.

Other more local "clubs" that frequent your area may have detailed maps, sometimes homemade, that you may be able to obtain.

And don't forget to check in with the nearest Ranger Station every time you go in deep enough to need a wilderness map. They may have a better one for you – and they also need to know you're there before they can come in to save your a….

John

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: mouldy
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:41 AM

I bought my SO the cheapest little GPS (American) a couple of years ago - cost just over £100. Can't remember the make, might be Garmin, but it's yellow and about the size of a mobile phone. He makes good use of it, working in forrin' parts as he does. Especially last year when he took a boat up the Yangtze for 3 days and was the only non-Chinese speaker aboard. He used the GPS along with a map and could see exactly where he was and which villages he was passing.

He's off into the mountains of Kyrghyzstan for a week's walking in a few days time, and it will go along with him. It has that useful little facility of recording the trail you've walked so that you don't get lost. (This has also come in handy, he says, when on the way back from pubs in unfamiliar districts of Shenyang!)

When you switch it on after his return to the UK from Asia, you can almost hear it thinking hard for a few minutes as it tries to find its satellites. Then it asks, "have you moved more than 100 miles?"

Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 10:39 AM

Oh, I know maps, Sage. And did YOU know that lots of roads on city maps have been intentionally removed? Look at maps 20 years old compared to modern maps. A lot of still-existing roads just aren't pictured. It's intentional.

When the US goes to code red now, all major cities will be cordoned off. Police at first, to be backed up by the military and then...suddenly...the President will realize all our troops are spread around 130 countries around the world and we just don't HAVE the back-up needed to contain the ebola or whatever. And since WE are 'helping' other countries (precedent set), foreign troops will need to help US out. The cordons will be reinforced and the Homeland will be secure. People will be told to stay tuned to some local TV station and will watch Brokaw and Rather lie to us in shifts about how help is on the way. Then, after 3 days or so, everyone will start to get a little hungry. Within a week half the population of every major city will be dead from rioting, then the 'foreign assets' will move through and mop up. That is the plan, folks. If a code red is ever announced, you have two hours to get out of your city.

So learn your back roads. The highways will be blocked first (why do you think concrete barricades left over from that last construction job are still in place?), and after the highways are blocked they'll start on the back roads out of the cities. So hit the backroads with an old map. And old map because a lot of the little connecting roads that could get you out of cities just AREN'T THERE on newer maps. Intentionally. To thwart escape.

The coming massacre has been in the works for decades. You have to go back at least 20 years to get a true map, but between that and a new one, most of the existing roads should be pictured. And map out a couple of escape routes now, folks. Or buy guns and food.

DG

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 02:09 PM

OK, so between now and when the US government takes over Vancouver Island, my origianl question was 'will a GPS help me REfind a spot in the forest?' And I'm beginning to think it will, at least it will make it a lot easier than relying on memory or using a map. The problem with maps is that they are not as useful in this situation as some seem to think. Imagine standing on an undulating piece of earth with no buildings, outcrops of rock or mountains. Now fill it with trees that look exactly alike. Now put fifteen more trees between you and the trees. OK, now you're looking at the ground for mushrooms while you trundle through it all. What use is a map even if such a map existed? At least a GPS lets you know how many numbers to the left you need to move to get back to the right coordinates. Downside of course is that it also lets the Taliban know where the tricoloma magnivalere is fruiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:49 PM

Well damn, BigPink, don't let the Taliban and Saddam in on that secret! (I don't think I'm straying into DG's domain to point out that Dubya is doing his darnedest to link unrelated items through his hyperbole: September 11, 2001 and Saddam)

I guess the thing to do is to visit the site so often that you just remember how to get there each time. Try not to leave too conspicuous a path or those spy satellites will mark where those mushrooms are for sure!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 04:15 AM

You're missing the point, young Pinko. The US Govt isn't going to take over Vancouver Island. It's the gnomes of Vancouver who are going to come in their helicopters to take over the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 05:17 AM

Leave us Gnomes out of it and get on with mending leaky taps...

Little do you know that the Gnomish Positioning Systems lets us know where everyone is:-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 06:11 AM

....(retreats, covered in ignominy).

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 11:02 AM

I was once covered in ignominy but I found Lysol gets if off great.

Subject: RE: BS: Global positioning system
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 11:59 AM

Not to be confused with "a grit of hominy. . ."