BS: Any Right Angles in Your House

Subject: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 10:51 PM

Well, I reckon that this subject has never found its way into the Catbox, and I realize that that this question is a tad on the male-ish side, but, like, ahhhh, how many right angles do you think are in your house?

The freason I'm askin' is that I purdy much build my house and now I'm in the process of remodeling and not finding to much that is either level, plumb or any of them other things that one would think is important in building a house. Hey, it's not far off, but it's off.... everywhere...

Any other folks who know what I mean here....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Bert
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 11:26 PM

Yup, that's the way houses are. Accuracy in construction is rather a mythical thing. If a measurement is within two inches then it's close enough.

Just roll with the punches.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 11:42 PM

If visitors don't notice, it's OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 12:09 AM

My house is over 100 years old. What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Mudlark
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 12:22 AM

My shack is at least 60 yrs old, the oldest part, which was originally a gas station, then added on to by uncarpenterish types. Marbles roll, doors don't hang square, lines in the lino run wildly away from the line of cabinets in the kitchen, and spillover water (as from frequent septic backups) flows freely and gaily throughout the house. Whenever I have to have some work done on the place I have to warn the handyman/contractor that nothing is square...and I don't care. Conventional housing has never been a high priority for me. It does take some inventive and creative carpentry, however, to fit things in.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 12:22 AM

naww, Bobert...if you DO find an almost perfect angle, it's probably accidental... That's what sheet rock tape & mud are for...and molding and such...to cover those cracks and angles..

(well, except for doors & windows,,I have seen some extra care taken to make them fit 'right',,,until they shift and.....

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: khandu
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 12:22 AM

Heck I have done remodeling in rather new, high $$$, homes and it is amazing how many "wrong" angles they have. Often I see ceilings as much as an inch out of level in an 12 ft. span. Rarely do I find a plumb wall.

All you need is a square, a level and a plumb-bob to align your construction with the forces of the universe, but I guess most squares are not square anymore, most levels aren't level anymore, and what's a plumb-bob, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 03:04 AM

Well we deliberately made our house more of a trapezium(I thing) than a rectangle, which used the shape of the land a bit better, but it didnt half make the woodwork fiddly. And then we found that bits of wood you buy arent straight. And then theres mistakes. You're right, Bobert, a right angle is a rare bird round here.
    Now,me and Kate used to live in a badly built boat, and when we were refitting that, wow. Tumble home different on each side, no fore and aft line you could define as the middle in a any symmetrical way. Now that was a seriously unsymmetrical job. But it looks quite pretty when yourew finished.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Dharmabum
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 06:41 AM

Having been a carpenter for 20 years,I've done my share of remodeling jobs where I was better off leaving the level & plum bob in the truck.

Just remember the carpenters credo;
"Little putty,little paint,makes a job what it ain't".

DB.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: gnu
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:13 AM

I marvel at some of the old houses I inspect. Lath and plaster walls as straight as a die. Then I go to some of the new houses and cringe. Walls so wavey that the floor tile guy must have had an annurism. I was in a house worth well over $1M this week and a hallway wall had a four inch bow at the bottom about seven feet long because the plumber roughed in the piping incorrectly in the adjacent room... in a concrete slab, of course. If it had'nt been an oversize hallway, imagine the cost to meet code. I didn't ask if he ever got paid his bid.

Plumb bob ? Makes a dandy paper weight. Repeat after me, laser level.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:29 AM

Yes - I've got a setsquare . . . somewhere

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 08:22 AM

Bobert, Mister and I live in an 80 year old house that was MOVED from its original location when the Corps of Engineers decided to build Percy Priest Lake here in Nashville. Otherwise, it's be underwater. The walls are plaster and lathe, hardwood floors, dark woodwork trim. I wish the landlady would just sell it to us. Anyhow ------- you ought to see some of the floors in this place. Some of it is from the move, but I think some of it's from age too. I imagine, though, that when it was new, it was probably pretty swell. Once upon a time, people took pride in building a new house...

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 08:32 AM

Green wood, such as my father used to build the house I grew up in, can cause problems as it dries. Settling, too, can make things go out of plumb. But there's no excuse I can think of for some of the stuff that happens.

Take, for instance, that new fake stucco. The library I work in has a 25,000 sq. ft. addition, built in 1994, with that on the exterior down to the ground. There are currently 75 holes (by count) in it from rocks and such thrown up by the lawn mower -- and two years ago it was repaired for the same sort of thing. Two corners are badly scrunched. It'll cost about twelve hundred dollars to fix. And it'll happen again.

*sigh* The old section, built in 1907, is solid, baby, solid. My office is there, with an 18 foot ceiling no less!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 08:42 AM

Ummm...I used to live in a 90 year old house on a former Army post in Arizona. Douglas MacArthur lived next door when he was a kid and his father was stationed there. While I never had any interest in measuring them, the place was so solid and well built that I'd bet every interior angle was exactly 90 degrees.   My current home? Fairly typical 1970s tract construction. They kinda rounded all the corners off with fat paint.

Hey, Bobert...if you hold the square in your other hand, does a right angle become a left angle? *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 08:52 AM

Nothing is plumb, level or square... By Alan Dugan.


Nothing is plumb, level or square:
  the studs are bowed, the joists
are shaky by nature, no piece fits
  any other piece without a gap
or pinch, and bent nails
  dance all over the surfacing
like maggots. By Christ
  I am no carpenter. I built
the roof for myself, the walls
  for myself, the floors
for myself, and got
  hung up in it myself. I
danced with a purple thumb
  at this house-warming, drunk
with my prime whiskey: rage.


  Oh I spat rage's nails
into the frame-up of my work:
  It held. It settled plumb.
level, solid, square and true
  for that one great moment. Then
it screamed and went on through,
  skewing as wrong the other way.
God damned it. This is hell,
  but I planned it I sawed it


I nailed it and I
  will live in it until it kills me.
I can nail my left palm
 to the left-hand cross-piece but
I can't do everything myself.
 I need a hand to nail the right,
a help, a love, a you, a wife.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 08:53 AM

as far as I can tell - these days a right angle is the one that fits. After all - discrimination against the angles not 90 degrees would be wrong, wouldn't it? Besides, you can always pair an 88 degree angle with a 92 degree angle...

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Beccy
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 09:22 AM

Well, we have loads of right angles post drywall and tape... I hafta say, though, that we remodelled this place when we got it. It was 4 walls and a roof- really. We put in everything and my hubby had to do some fancy schmancy construction to get this place to look as nice as it does. The guy we got it from was NOT, and I repeat NOT, fond of measuring and he botched quite a few things.

Make it square when you can- make it close when you can't- and do the most anal-retentive job of your life on drywall and tape and you'll not be able to see where you had to make up for someone else's mistake.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Hrothgar
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 07:12 AM

My place was built in 1927, and when I re-tied the kitchen floor I found it was only about 4mm out (the kitchen is about 12 feet (3600 mm) square.

This is an old Queensland timber house, up on wooden stumps, which were replaced ten years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 11:10 AM

I tiled the floors in my house, on a concrete slab, built in 1975. We tore up all of the carpet, foam pads, and carpet tack boards. The floors in some rooms looked good, but in the den it ripples. Builders seem to assume floors will be carpeted and the pad and rugs will hide a multitude of building sins.

I decided against "leveling" the den, though in the converted garage my contractor did level it because that floor was distinctly sloped, as are many garages.

I tiled, and when I finally reached the worst offender slopes near steps in two areas I had to cut three of my 14" tiles along diagonal lines according to the floor shape. If I hadn't done this they'd have eventually broken and would have been tripping hazards from jutting out. The room looks marvelous and it isn't really noticable that there's a sway. For furniture placement I use shims under things here and there.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 12:30 PM

The tile on my patio, which was completed around the end of 2001, is lovely stuff and the tiles are mostly in straight lines. They have sort of wavy edges built into them which made it a little funkier. But if you look close you will find that all the grout lines are different widths, some of them even varying in width from one end to the other like very, very long wedges.

But, it makes it look kinda Mediterranean -- as though it were done a thousand years ago, before the straight line was even invented or something. And I am very happy with it regardless.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: CamiSu
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 02:13 PM

My house is about 150 years old, granite, and the floors sort of hang from the exterior walls. They sag. BUT the addition floor was put in by my neighbor and a friend, who refused to listen to anything my neighbour said and used a 2 foot level to lay out the joists. I was gone that week. Needless to say, the friend did not work on the project after I got home, and my neighbour and I finished the job. We fought the hump in hte floor clear up to the roof! The plaster in the old part is like glass, where it survives. The new plaster is not so much so, but is quite nice. We finished the attic, and my brother-in-law and his wife did the drywall finish, as a favor. They did high end homes in Kansas for a living. The finish was so bad I practically had to do the whole mess over. Now that we're rebuilding from the fire, I'm having the best plasterer around do the finish. She's a whole lot better than me at it.

BTW this is not a male only thread. I have been a carpenter for 20+ years. My current job is a house we moved and added to what the customer already had. As I told my partner in crime, "There's plumb, square, and then there's right!" But I LOVE my laser level!

CamiSu

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 02:57 PM

There was a crooked man
Who walked a crooked mile...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 03:01 PM

I've been a carpenter and builder all my life, third generation. For the last dozen or so years, I've been primarily building decks (well duh!) and garden structures. I could bore you all to death for hours telling you of the horror stories I've seen with out of level/square decks. Some homemade jobby doos so dangerous I won't even step on them. I've always said that just about anyone can build level, true, plumb and square. But it takes a real craftsman to correct someone elses mistakes and go on from there. And, by the way, the best putty and taper I ever knew was a woman, and I gave her her first lesson. Within two months she was far better than I. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 06:05 PM

CamiSu, far be it from me to be sexist, reconstructed man incarnate, that's me, BUT, there are those who would contend that plastering is no job for a woman. The muscular development required to become proficient at the trade is difficult enough for a man to achieve, and can only be achieved by starting as an apprentice, as a teenager.

I am assuming of course that you are talking about real plastering, there is no reason why a woman should not become proficient at drywalling.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 07:33 PM

Isn't "real plastering" related to hard core drinking? Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 07:45 PM

My home is around 100 yrs & rock solid, except for where theants tore up the porch. We pulled the porch down & rebuilt it as an addition adding on about 600 sg ft to the foot print plus a relocated farmers porch. The training & apprenticeships today are so lacking it's like going from kindergarde to the 1st grade then hey I'm a master craftsperson. The materials that were used in older were normally hand picked by the builder. The kind of wood matter, the way the wood was cut matter, no warping or bows & dried out as it should've been. A friend of my wife's layed down her wide pine flooring & used it for a yr before nailing it in place, she lost 4" of flooring (she knew this ahead of time) but she's now got a great fitting floor. The partical board & oriented strand board that's used in construction today has no structual value at all & if dampened for awhile becomes pulp. Plywood on the other has structual value but coasts more, I still prefere dimensional lumber & timber. When bulding I went to a local mill & used 4x4's & 6x6's for posts & 4x 12's & 6x10's beams & used 3/4 plywood for substrates & cedar clapboards. The costs are a bit different but I won't need to repair any of it in my life time & neither will my kids. Theres a reason why the older houses last a 100 yrs+ while modern houses are lucky to see more than 40yrs unless built with care, forethought & the right materials.I'm not saying that all modern materials suck but EFIS (stucco siding as mentioned above) is shit espically when compared to real stucco. Aluminum siding IMHO turns a house into a fire trap, won't take near the abuse that traditional sidings do & can't compare to the beauty & warmth either. So it takes a bit more maintence but it'll outlast your kids. If the craftspeople of yesteryear had the tools & technology of today they'd be building dwellings that would still be young 100 yrs from now. Look at the "OLD" European roofs, some of the slate dates back 400yrs, our fiberglass shingles (not the asphalt shingles) lasts only half of what there rated for so you get a 10-20 yr roof when it should be 25-50. The insulation & ventilation systems on hand today are fantastic as long as some idiot isn't designing it to tight without a lick of breathing room & don't turn the house into a sick building. The weather & waterproofing work just as great if used & designed with forethought. When you get a house that'll last 100+ yrs do you really care if it's gone out of plumb because of settling or age. I just finished up overseeing the reovations of Boston City Hall. When it was built 30 yrs ago it was considered an international wonder, it's a wonder it's still standing. Built over subway systems, the concrete outcropping roof slabs have slid up to 6" from the main structure & the building envolope hasn't held heat or kept water out for the past 25 yrs, some of the drainage systems were built right into the concrete pour (they'll never work properly nor can they be repaired without becoming a demo nightmare. Anyway what I'm saying if it's built right with the right materials & skills, the right systems & the design is well thought out, then plumb...? A 100 yrs from now it'll still be standing doing what it was designed to do, out of plumb but still standing after others have been torn down within 1/2 the time. Today it's still not uncommon to find a 50,000,000 project not sq, not level & out of line from the foundation & structual steel onwards (once it's out of line from the start every after is trying to fix the error) it won't fix.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: CamiSu
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 08:46 PM

Ah Barry, I think that's why I prefer older buildings. The old builders cared. My stone house was built by a master, and came through the fire able to weather the rest of the winter with just some patches on the holes in the roof. I have done repair on a 40 year old house that the aluminum siding has caused to rot. Breathing is vital.

And Murray, Raven is plastering, not finishing drywall. She does 2-coat and skim coat plastering. We use blueboard (a modified drywall board) as substrate, usually, and there is no horsehair in the plaster, and no dots and grounds, so the work is a bit easier, but it is still plaster. And the best drywall contractor I know is a woman in Boulder, Colorado, Elisabeth Southworth. But as a plaster, Raven is very good, and I'll hire her over anyone else around here.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 04:11 AM

Well, congratulations to Raven, CamiSu. I have worked beside female cabinetmakers , but I have never encountered an instance of a female plasterer before.

What made me wonder was the sheer physical exertion and strength involved in finishing a ceiling. Most people who are reasonably dexterous ( in which category I include myself) could learn to finish a wall, and make a satisfactory stab at it, but finishing a ceiling is a very different pot of bouillabaise. Trust me, I know ...

I admire anybody who is able to do it, and to do it quickly enough to make a living at it.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 03:45 PM

A duck walks into a bar & orders a beer & the barman looks & says "A TALKING DUCK" & the duck says "yaaa" & tells him he'll in often for lunch & a drink "I'm working at the construction site down the road". Well, eventually the circus comes to town & the barman tells the owners about the talking duck & how they would very much like to meet him. So the barman goes to make the arrangements when he sees the duck next saying "the circus is in town & the owners would love to chat with you". The duck asks "what would they be wanting with a plaster"?

Hi CamiSu, sorry I missed you at the Clearwater on Hudson festival. Through the drips & drops I looked for you over at the kids area with no luck,. Hope to see you again, sometime soon.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 04:02 PM

no angels in my house just one little red devil - oh angles! - er no squares here.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Ely
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 10:26 PM

One end of our den started sinking under the weight of a massive brick fireplace; the damage was repaired well before we bought the house and, as far as we can tell, nothing has changed in 13 years. I'm sure it's not square, though. I know that the upstairs floors--the downstairs are cement--all ripple and creak (the house is only 30 years old).

My uncle has a 130-ish-year-old house and NOTHING is straight. The kitchen floor at its worst had probably 10 inches of topography. He recently put in a new wood floor in the living room and arranged the planks in a herringbone pattern rather than a normal straight pattern so nobody could see at a glance how far out of alignment the walls are.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: CamiSu
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 10:26 PM

Hey Barry!

You never saw me there because I manage Story Stage. I haven't been to the kids area in years! It's not that I don't like the other areas, but there is so much to see and do at my stage and they only pay for one...
Eric was there. He was even almost on time. We had a good time razzing each other. His set was lies and tall tales and I said his first lie was telling me on the 'Cat that he'd be on time! I'm going to Scotland tomorrow to see Wavestar. I still want to have a Mudcat party someday, but when I get home I have to welcome my new exchange student. (#8 in 5 years) Oy!

See you!

CamiSu

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 02:12 AM

There's a lot of muscle to the building trades. I get into great shape when I'm lugging around 50 pound bags of thinset, cases of tiles, grout, paint, lumber, etc. Why join a gym? Just go carry stuff around at Home Depot!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 08:23 AM

Ah, I love plastering, and I'm enough of a Virgo to spend literally days getting it level and flat. Our house is about 100 yrs old, and consequently has very few surfaces that are level or angles that are 90'. However, the odd walls that have been replaced with plasterboard (drywall) are in a worse state than the 100 yr old horsehair plaster and lath. One of them in the bathroom seems to be shrinking, and the new kitchen plaster is already showing its age (about 18 months).

My grandfather lived in a 16th Century farmhouse, where the stone flagged floor had been worn into a shallow trough from the back door to the kitchen, the kitchen floor looked like a rumpled rug and you had to practically step out of the trough to get to the 'best' rooms at the front of the house. Riding a trike down the hallway was like the switchback at the funfair - especially if you got stuck in the trough and ended up in the kitchen where granny would be working, because then, if you timed it right, you could fall off and be comforted with a cuddle and spoonful of jam.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 05:06 PM

Liz, you don't actually have days to spend getting it flat and level ! The whole rationale of plastering is to get the surface from rough to dead smooth in like 15 minutes max (depending on substrate of course). If you don't get it right in 15 minutes then it is going to take weeks rather than days, as you will have to wait for it to dry out and sand it flat.

I too love plastering, and I am perturbed by the current fashion for finishing plasterboard with just one finish coat. The plasterers of my day used to apply a scratch coat of "board finish" to the plasterboard, let it harden and then apply the finish coat, which was "board finish" mixed with lime putty. The finished job compared more than favourably to the old horsehair/lime finish, and was just as long lived, I am sure.

Murray

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Any Right Angles in Your House
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 07:42 PM

Bobert -- there are no right angles in nature. It's a completely unnatural concept, so why worry about it?

Cheers,
Michael