Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics

Subject: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 08:43 AM

Hard to know where to start on this one, there are so many candidates for the STUPIDEST. For our American cousins, I suppose the attempt to push through the stalled energy bill including drilling in the Arctic refuge as a "solution" (there is something buried deep in the bill about reliable transmission lines) to electricity woes would be in the running.

Here in Ontario, home of systematic stupidity, a spanking new candidate has emerged. Yesterday the government cancelled plans to have an energy conservation officer for the province (hours after the Premier was on TV extolling the virtues of conservation). This lasted about 4 hours, until they realized it was really, really, stupid. One of those interviewed for the job said that during her interview the interviewer said that the province didn't really want conservation because then they would never be able to pay off the old debt of the parent company!!!!

A Classic. Any more out there?

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 09:08 AM

If you list all the Ontario stupidities there will be no room for anyone else's.

Personally I have found it hilarious how Ernie Eves (the premier of Ontario, you non-Canadians won't have heard of him, he has never been elected and will be one of those non-entities who disappears as soon as he loses the election he is so reluctant to call) has discovered the concept of energy conservation in the past 72 hours.

And has a great plan for implementing it too: scolding everybody.

They have no way of knowing where power draws are coming from! (John Baird admitted this on the radio yesterday). If the system is getting close to overload, they don't know if it's from industrial or residential use or streetlights or what! They don't know.

In a way that's good. If this government could, it would "solve" the energy problem by cutting off power to all welfare recipients and single parents. Wouldn't fix the grid but it would make the Regressive Preservatives feel good.

The only energy-sucker I own is a dryer. I'm going to run it at 4 p.m. every day just out of spite.

W-O

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Peg
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 10:50 AM

I am wondering if all the political nonsense emerging in the wake of this event will make most level-headed citizens of the USA and Canada quietly and calmly start hoarding generators, batteries, propane, etc.

I for one am going to renew my candle supply...but I needed to do that anyway.

I heard an interesting comment from an analyst/energy expert the other night...he was on the news (maybe Fox? I kept switching around to see what everyone was saying because I was not sure when we'd lose power and the TV would go out) and mentioned that three weeks ago, and agreement was signed between several of the larger grid systems (I believe it was the Northeast, Northwest and Texas), to implement a new security system which would prevent electrical outages or failures due to security problems with the   software   in the data colection system (the "nervous system," of the grid as another expert explained it). This guy said that the agreement was signed but no measures had yet been implemented. His implication was that the software had failed, and perhaps further, that the security had been interfered with (hackers?).

I found it all a bit cloak and dagger but then I got thinking; what other logical explanation exists for such a pervasive, but also selective, blackout? The word "cascading" kept being used, but Detroit, NYC and Toronto all lost power AT THE SAME TIME. I also wondered at how quickly the suits wanted to assure everyone no "terrorism" was behind it. Perhaps not, but malicious sabotage from a small group of individuals seems a possibility, particularly in the wake of a public meeting where the security of the grid's data system was being discussed. I also speculated that, if "terrorists" were looking for a way to disable the grid so that other mesaures could be employed (the release of bio-agents or spores in crowded, paralyzed subway tunnels, for example), this would be a good testing ground...

What I am saying is, as Henny-Penny as it sounds, this may just have been a drill.

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 11:13 AM

Regressive Preservatives love that term, Willie-O!!

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Alice
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 11:43 AM

Yesterday on NPR's To The Point with Warren Olney, there was a discussion between two sides of this issue, the Bush administration view and a renewable energy view. The woman defending Bush and the oil/gas/nuclear/coal interests tried to argue that solar energy only works when the sun is out and nuclear is "reliable" which is what consumers want. The woman didn't even understand the technology of solar power and kept promoting the idea of "reliability" of fossil fuels. Duh, we just had a blackout, lady, of a grid run by fossil fuels and nuclear energy. When the opposing side pointed out that solar technology includes storage of energy, nuclear waste disposal is still a major problem and that nuclear plants can fail, (hear of Chernobyl?) there was still this blind mantra repeated that renewable energy doesn't work. There are a number of countries around the world using alternative energy that could deny that claim. Our oil/gas/nuclear/coal power companies have a grip on our infrastructure, so it will take some time and political will to change things.

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 12:02 PM

1. The blackout was in no way a reflection on the source of the power in the grid; the grid does not know or care where its energy comes from once the current enters the grid. Fossil, nuclear, wind or solar, the blackout would have occurred if the distribution grid as it stood was used.

2. "Renewable energy doesn't work" is a mindless mantra; it is true that in the past, renewable technologies were less proven and less evolved than diesel, for example. Let me point out that Niagara Falls, the source of a major component of the Northeast grid, is a renewable resource.

Texas is gradually adding renewable (wind) resources to its state grid and according to one estimate thought it would have 10,000 megawatts of renewable power online by 2010. I hope I have remembered those figures correctly.

A

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: mg
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 12:27 PM

the stupidest thing we do, and I am certainly as guilty of anyone, is believing in it like the tooth fairy. There are affordable (for many) things that each individual and family do. Our reliance on a central grid is just plain foolish. Have lots of warm sweaters and blankets around if it happens next in the winter. mg

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 12:48 PM

Mary:

A grid is just a means of distributing energy between areras of high potential and areas of low potential. It is an improvement over the unconnected providers that powered towns and cities in the beginnning of the electrification movement. It is Bucky Fuller's contention, and I think I agree with him, that we should have a planetary grid, to take advantage of the fact that parts of the planet are always at dead-low demand (i.e. sleeping)and stabilize irregular supplies. But NOT, as has been recently demonstrated, with a domino-like dependency between nodes.

A

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 12:50 PM

It seems there should be some better design for nuclear plants then having automated shutdowns if the external power fails...

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 02:12 PM

First, this unreliable, outdated grid has not failed for 26 years. Do you know of any other system that can say that? How about your ISP or your cable TV? How about your computer or your car?

Second, what's the big deal? Where we live elecricity outages are routine. We're in an oak and pine forest with overhead utilities so each time there's a good storm we have dozens to hundreds of outages and it sometimes takes days to get to all of them. No one pays much attention to them. We just get out our Coleman lanterns and carry on.

We do miss the Mudcat when that happens, though.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 02:31 PM

All politics is stupid and not worth the powder to blow it to hell...

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 02:53 PM

I think that we should use a variety of sources, rather than be dependant upon a few. There are magnificent wind farms in Wyoming and California. Solar could certainly be an option here (and more than a few houses take advantage of it). Coal, with scrubbers, is another source. So, if there is no other choice, is nuclear (EBR-1 is just a few miles from where I sit).

As for the grid itself, I heard just a few minutes ago a proposal that we spent USD100 billion to move it from electromechnical to electronic. Actually, it's long been my opinion that the United States (and Canada) can do whatever the US and Canada set their minds to do. You want fusion reactors? FTL travel? Clean energy? Get Canada and the US working on it, really working on it, and see what happens. But then, maybe I'm an optimist.

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 08:58 PM

I couldn't agree more with Rapaire...

With that said, it's a pipe dream. The US's energy policy was written by 52 of oilman Dick Cheney's closest oilmen friends. It's not based on conservation or alternative energy sources but burning up as much fossil feul as can possibly be burned... Was there one environmentalist in this panel? No. Was there one conservatinonist? No! One alternatibe energy person? No. Just a bunch of rich, very white, oilmen....

Hmmmmmmm, Part 1752?????....

Even now, a week after the largest meltdown of in the history of the US, Bush is sayin', "Don't worry, be happy."

This is leadreship?

No.

This is undisguised greed!

Bobert

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 11:57 PM

Now, Bobert, don't you think those nice men in the dark suits are doing their best to take care of you. They have to sweat all day over a hot oil well just to make some electricity so you can visit the Mudcat. And then you go and call them greedy. Shame on you, Bobert.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 02:08 AM

Like Bev and Jerry, power outages are routine where I live also. Usually no big deal. Longest one, so far, has been 5 days and fortunately it occurred when there was a lot of snow on the ground to use for water, as we are on a well. Even so, it was a right pain in the ass, regardless of preparations. I like my conveniences, and its a hell of a lot of work to try to get by without them.      

What it did spur me to do, was to look seriously at 12V for back up lighting and consequently I have an ongoing love affair with white LEDs. (their power consumption is miniscule). We are installing a permanent circuit for emergency 12V lighting. I'm using white LED strips as regular undercounter lighting in the kitchen, with the use of a transformer, and the LED strips can also be switched over to 12V battery to double as emergency lighting, along with some in other strategic areas in the house. We now have two 12V/600 watt power pack/inverters, so we can also run a few 120V conveniences (such as the computer) on occasion too.

Still haven't solved the water problem yet. I'd like to install a deep well hand pump that will pressurize our water system in an emergency, which fits down beside our regular pump, but it's a little pricey. I'd like to keep the cost of our "alternate power consumption system" within reason and so far, most of the bits and pieces for it, have been deals from eBay. Economically, the total solution for us would be a gas generator, which we'd like to avoid.

White LEDs may only be a small bit in the grand scheme and it won't get us off the Grid, but as far as I'm concerned they have been one of the best little inventions since the bicycle..........off my soapbox for now.

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 08:36 AM

If you take water from the ground and there is no replenishment of the aquafer, your wells go dry.

If you grow crops that deplete the soil and don't replenish the soil nutrients, your farm fails.

If you take money from a business and don't reinvest in it, your business goes belly up.

There is no such thing as an "open ended cycle."

What's hard about these things? Take a little, put a little back in, and you're okay. Take it all and don't put any back, you're dog food. What part of "growth" don't you understand?

Subject: RE: Stupidest Energy/Blackout Politics
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 10:56 AM

Don't know if your post was meant as a slam to those in rural areas Rapaire, but unlke urban and city folk, we take water from the ground with a well and are on a septic system.

The bulk of the water filters back into the aquifer. No dry wells here. We don't water lawns, deposit our wastewater in holding areas to evaporate or flush our watery sludge out into rivers, lakes and oceans.

Anyone who is on a well and personally responsible for attaining their own safe supply, at a huge cost compared to the average user, soon becomes one of the best water conservationists going.