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Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?

DigiTrad:
GOLDEN VANITY
SINKING OF THE GRAF SPEE
THE BOLD TRELLITEE
THE GOLDEN VANITY
THE GOLDEN VANITY (6)
THE GREEN WILLOW TREE
THE LOWDOWN LONESOME LOW
THE LOWLANDS LOW (7)
THE SWEET KUMADEE
THE TURKEY-ROGHER LEE and the YELLOW GOLDEN TREE


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Golden Vanity Variants (78)
Versions: The Turkish Reverie/Golden Vanity (11)
Recording of Golden Vanity (68)
MEANING of ' gaudie' in Sweet Kumadee?? (8)
ADD Version: The Sweet Kumadie (Ian Manuel) (10)
Donald Duck and The Golden Vanity (11)
translating the golden vanity (14)
Lyr Req: Lowlands Low (Warde Ford, Child #286) (6)
Lyr Req: Frank Proffitt's Lowland Low (#286) (6)
Lyr Req: johnny doughty's golden vanity (6)
Lyr Req: duncan williamson's golden vanity (5)
Lyr Req: ollie jacobs's golden vanity (bronson) (1)
Looking to ID This Song Lyric (Golden Vanity) (11)
Penguin: The Golden Vanity (3)
The Sweet Kumadee (14)


Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 06:39 AM
Les from Hull 16 Jun 11 - 07:33 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 16 Jun 11 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,Noreen on lunch break 16 Jun 11 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 08:04 AM
GUEST 16 Jun 11 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Jun 11 - 09:19 AM
Les from Hull 16 Jun 11 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Kendall 16 Jun 11 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Jun 11 - 03:23 PM
Phil Edwards 16 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Jun 11 - 08:29 PM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Jun 11 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Jun 11 - 11:17 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Aug 23 - 02:18 PM
Mrrzy 09 Aug 23 - 09:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 09 Aug 23 - 11:05 AM
Richard Mellish 20 Sep 23 - 09:53 AM
EBarnacle 20 Sep 23 - 12:26 PM
Mysha 25 Sep 23 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,RJM 25 Sep 23 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,groovy 26 Sep 23 - 01:27 PM
GUEST 27 Sep 23 - 10:19 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 27 Sep 23 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,RJM 25 Sep 23 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,groovy 26 Sep 23 - 01:27 PM
GUEST 27 Sep 23 - 10:19 AM
EBarnacle 20 Sep 23 - 12:26 PM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 27 Sep 23 - 02:38 PM
Richard Mellish 20 Sep 23 - 09:53 AM
Mysha 25 Sep 23 - 12:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 06:39 AM

I expect it has already been said, but the main objection would be that when he tried to turn his auger, it would stand still while the cabin boy rotated.
Action and reaction.
He has nothing to stand or hold on to.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:33 AM

c/f Bushnell's 'Turtle'


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:38 AM

There was a reference somewhere higher up this thread to a ship being captured when grounded. This ocurred during the Enlish Civil war when a ship was capured by a cavalry troop at Blue Anchor in the Bristol Channel, between Watchet and Minehead.

I would sugest that the cabin boy's best course of action would be to try to board the enemy ship unnoticed, creep down to the bilges and bore holes from the inside. Drilling several holes in a circle, each most of the way through and then break the whole area out and run!


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,Noreen on lunch break
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:47 AM

Leenia, are you serious??

Swimming has been recorded since prehistoric times; the earliest recording of swimming dates back to Stone Age paintings from around 7,000 years ago. Written references date from 2000 BC. Some of the earliest references to swimming include the Gilgamesh, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Bible, Beowulf, and other sagas. In 1578, Nikolaus Wynmann, a German professor of languages, wrote the first swimming book...

from History of swimming on wikipedia

Interesting thread :)


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 08:04 AM

A lad resourceful enough to own and use an auger, would surely be able to make use of a rubber ring, or some such aid to buoyancy.

I still think reaction was his greatest problem.
Of course the law on action and reaction did not come into force until 1687.
Do we have a date for the song?
It could conceivably have come into force between him diving in and attempting to drill.
That would explain why he was unprepared.
If we could find a missing verse that mentions whether the ship recoiled when he dived....


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 08:07 AM

On a dead man's door, you can knock forever.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 09:19 AM

Pip Radish (16 Jun 11 - 04:12 AM), LOL. If you are the poet, well done! Which makes me long for the legendary CHALLENGES. Why not have a folk song for topic, and the challenge would be: add or replace verses to reveal how it really happened. (Not just an alternative ending, we had that before.)

ripov (15 Jun 11 - 04:53 PM) pronounced what every seasoned scholar always thinks of first.

And may I defend leeneia: although in all history most ordinary country dwellers certainly could swim, many educated persons are known who could not - they thought it beneath them. This included ship captains.

Keith A of Hertford (16 Jun 11 - 06:39 AM): Conservation of angular momentum was proclaimed later still, but even if the boy was malnourished, half of his effort would go to the drilling, the other half make him revolve round the auger. Same (more or less) with the "American Turtle". Modern systems have two drills revolving in opposite directions.

One version in the DT has the dead boy shouting from Heaven and sinking the GV for revenge - certainly not a patriotic ending, but matching the rest of the ballad in terms of realism.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 09:27 AM

I read somewhere that some sailors chose not to learn how to swim because they thought it would prolong their death if they fell overboard.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 01:03 PM

Most commercial fishermen to this day don't swim for that very reason.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:23 PM

"Leenia, are you serious??"

Of course I'm serious. How could one sister off the other sister in all the Two Sisters ballads if the other sister could swim?


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM

the main objection would be that when he tried to turn his auger, it would stand still while the cabin boy rotated

"So he bored his little auger in the pirate ship so hated,
But the auger it stuck fast, while the cabin boy rotated.
Says he, if things go on like this I'll be bloody well belated
Ere I sink them in the lowlands low..."

Something else struck me about the song today. These pirates -

Some were playing cards and some were playing dice
And some were in their hammocks a-sporting with their wives


Not sure how to put this, but is it even possible to... er... sport with one's loved one in a hammock? I know I wouldn't like to try it.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 08:29 PM

I have personally witnessed a little tool sink a folk club. I expect sinking a ship is roughly the same.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 11:15 AM

I asked the DH, a great lover of history books and all things nautical, and he has a scheme involving sheep intestines loaded with black powder. The cabin boy would drill the holes, push in the lethal links, light the fuse, and whammo!

But the plan hit a snag when I asked him how a fuse could burn underwater.

He himself pointed out that the timbers of the ship could be 6 to 12 inches thick. That's arduous argering.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 11:17 AM

oops spelled that wrong

arduous augering


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Aug 23 - 02:18 PM

I don't know if this needs a new thread, but I'd like to post it where people can read and consider it. A modern day maritime rescue by an 18th Century merchant ship is unusual, perhaps it can spark a song? I don't know how durable the site or link are, so I'll post the whole thing later (Mudcat is crashing with longs posts today). This can be used to start a new thread if anyone wishes.

When the 1700s come to the rescue


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 23 - 09:22 AM

What a great thread. Ties one of my favorite songs to Pillars Of The Earth, one of my favorite books...


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Aug 23 - 11:05 AM

Here is the promised text:
When the 1700s come to the rescue
Published on May 9th, 2023
At 47-meters, the Götheborg of Sweden is the largest ocean-going wooden sailing ship in the world. Launched in 2005, it was based on an 18th-century merchant ship and built using the tools, methods, and materials of that time.

While the ship is typically utilized for tours or European expeditions, it recently was also the closest vessel to a sailboat that had made a distress call after losing its rudder. Here’s the report from the sailors that made the call:



On April 25th at 01:00, we left Cherbourg and set sail for Camaret (the tip of Brittany).

We are two experienced sailors on board (Simon and me) with the objective of bringing the boat to Southern Brittany.

At 15:30, we were at sea, more than 50 nautical miles from the coast, when our rudder broke. After sending a PAN-PAN call on the VHF radio, the three-masted sailboat Götheborg quickly responded to our call, offering to tow us to Paimpol (France).

We repeatedly emphasized that we were aboard a small 8-meter sailboat, but the response was the same each time: “We are a 50-meter three-masted sailboat, and we offer our assistance in towing you to Paimpol.” We were perplexed by the size difference between our two boats, as we feared being towed by a boat that was too large and at too fast a speed that could damage our boat.

The arrival of the Götheborg on the scene was rapid and surprising, as we did not expect to see a merchant ship from the East India Company of the XVIII century. This moment was very strange, and we wondered if we were dreaming. Where were we? What time period was it?

The Götheborg approached very close to us to throw the line and pass a large rope. The mooring went well, and our destinies were linked for very long hours, during which we shared the same radio frequency to communicate with each other.

The crew of the Götheborg showed great professionalism and kindness towards us. They adapted their speed to the size of our boat and the weather conditions. We felt accompanied by very professional sailors. Every hour, the officer on duty of the Götheborg called us to ensure everything was going well.

The next day, as we approached the French coast, we radioed for another boat to help us enter the port, but no one responded positively. Around noon, the Götheborg approached us as closely as possible and stayed by our side until the arrival of a French rescue boat to ensure that everything would go well for us before letting us go.

This adventure, very real, was an incredible experience for us. We were extremely lucky to cross paths with the Götheborg by chance and especially to meet such a caring crew.

Dear commander and crew of the Götheborg, your kindness, and generosity have shown that your ship is much more than just a boat. It embodies the noblest values of the sea, and we are honored to have had the chance to cross your path and benefit from your help.

We thank you again for everything you have done for us.

Sincerely,

David Moeneclaey (skipper of the sailboat Corto)


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:53 AM

Yesterday I recalled a version of the ballad which has one resolution of the puzzle. It includes these lines:
He swam until he came to the (rascal pirate's?)* side.
He climbed on deck and went below: by none was he espied,
And he sank them (etc)

It would be easy enough to bore holes from inside, though important to avoid detection and to get out again before too much water had come in.

*I forget who the enemy is in that particular version.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 12:26 PM

a simpler solution would have been for the HCB to carry a reefing hook, clean out a seam or two, and get away while the getting was good.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Mysha
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 12:34 PM

Hi,

Don't know most of the versions referred to, as I tend to sing a Dutch version. But I do recall having seen a version where the auger was a special tool for being able to make TWO holes at once. It wouldn't have to be very effective where the second hole was concerned: Just as long as it created a point of stability to keep the Turk from rotating around the cabin boy.

Sure, you can sink a ship: Give them your load of gold.

Bye
Mysha


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 04:28 PM

I am surprised that some of our expert shanty researchers, have not actually tried sinking ships witn augurs, whilst singing the song


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,groovy
Date: 26 Sep 23 - 01:27 PM

I think you mean augers.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 23 - 10:19 AM

It did not augur well for the Golden Vanity, or the sinker of the ship.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 27 Sep 23 - 02:38 PM

I stand by my suggestion that he bored the holes from the inside.

I agree that the abillity to swim was unusual at the time and may also have been in his favour.

I would presume that the enemy ship would have been spotted approaching and so it was not a case of overtaking the enemy ship. Judging by the description of the enemy crew's activites they would have been waiting overnight for daylight to commence their attack. This would also help him sneak aboard.

That's a lot of assumptions, but so is a lot of what is on this thread!

Robin


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 04:28 PM

I am surprised that some of our expert shanty researchers, have not actually tried sinking ships witn augurs, whilst singing the song


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,groovy
Date: 26 Sep 23 - 01:27 PM

I think you mean augers.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 23 - 10:19 AM

It did not augur well for the Golden Vanity, or the sinker of the ship.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 12:26 PM

a simpler solution would have been for the HCB to carry a reefing hook, clean out a seam or two, and get away while the getting was good.


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 27 Sep 23 - 02:38 PM

I stand by my suggestion that he bored the holes from the inside.

I agree that the abillity to swim was unusual at the time and may also have been in his favour.

I would presume that the enemy ship would have been spotted approaching and so it was not a case of overtaking the enemy ship. Judging by the description of the enemy crew's activites they would have been waiting overnight for daylight to commence their attack. This would also help him sneak aboard.

That's a lot of assumptions, but so is a lot of what is on this thread!

Robin


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:53 AM

Yesterday I recalled a version of the ballad which has one resolution of the puzzle. It includes these lines:
He swam until he came to the (rascal pirate's?)* side.
He climbed on deck and went below: by none was he espied,
And he sank them (etc)

It would be easy enough to bore holes from inside, though important to avoid detection and to get out again before too much water had come in.

*I forget who the enemy is in that particular version.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Mysha
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 12:34 PM

Hi,

Don't know most of the versions referred to, as I tend to sing a Dutch version. But I do recall having seen a version where the auger was a special tool for being able to make TWO holes at once. It wouldn't have to be very effective where the second hole was concerned: Just as long as it created a point of stability to keep the Turk from rotating around the cabin boy.

Sure, you can sink a ship: Give them your load of gold.

Bye
Mysha


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