BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist

Subject: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:36 PM

Does anyone besides me find the circus that surrounds US executions a bit distasteful? Is it necessary for instance to parade the condemned at press conferences? I would have thought that, in terms of pandering to the ghoulish in our natures, this was about one step better than full-blown public executions a la Saudi Arabia etc.

I realise that an audience of sorts is accommodated at US executions. A Death Row lawyer on UK tv the other night recalled a recent "performance" at which the official pronouncement of death was greeted with laughter from the victim's relatives. One wonders how long such relatives manage to trip out on such an experience. As the lawyer said, they probably wake up next morning and find that the world hasn't changed much after all.

Paul Hill seems to pose the US a real quandary, being a fundamentalist Christian of some sort, convinced that the state of Florida is speeding his passage to heaven. This is exactly the mentality that fills so many in the west with dread, particularly in the states, when it comes packaged with Islamic fundamentalism. When will America wake up to the reality that this kind of madness is a pestilence whatever religion it comes with?

In the meantime, executing people like Paul Hill seems like a shabby cop-out to me. He might have lived to regret his hideous crime and shake off the nonsense he's been brainwashed into believing. And even if his death means momentary gratification for relatives, the law should not be steered by the gut feelings of people who are emotionally vulnerable.

If what he did is sanctioned by the codes of his church, then I would have thought that his church should be put on trial. And that should hold regardless of whether abortion is right or wrong (on which matter I'm afraid I continue to vacillate).

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:47 PM

Many in the US find the "circus" distasteful in the extreme. If the State is going to execute someone, it should at least be done with as much dignity surrounding such an act as possible.

Personally, I think that Hill and others of his sort would be better served by being kept in solitary confinement -- never seeing or hearing another human being -- for the rest of their lives. Give them time to think about what they did. Comfortable, but spartan, accomodation; NO outside noise, nothing to distract them from their thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Leo Condie
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:53 PM

as far as i'm concerned the death penalty is never defensible, even with monsters like this.

now, if you want to be really scared, check this out...

http://www.armyofgod.com/PHillMessageBoard.html

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raptor
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:57 PM

Forgive me

Who is Paul Hill?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:02 PM

It's not an audience. US law requires witnesses that the execution was properly carried out. Later laws have given the next of kin the right to attend.

As much as I agree with Rapaire, there's no chance of that happening. It was tried at Sts Peter & Paul Fortress Prison in the Czar's time. Many went mad. In the US some apellate judge would probably turn the bastard loose.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:06 PM

Paul Hill is an unrepentent murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:11 PM

Like so many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:11 PM

Thanks for the link Leo. Here's a Blue Clicky for it.

I find it more saddening than scary, to be honest.

The posters quote the bible endlessly, but seem to forget four of the most important words contained therein:

Thou Shalt Not Kill

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:12 PM

I wanna see executions put on Pay-Per-View... I wanna see the 24/7 security video feed from major prisons... I wanna see armed bands of death row inmates, dropped into mazes and made to fight their way out...

You don't wanna know what else I wanna see...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:16 PM

Click here for what god thinks about the entire mess

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raptor
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:35 PM

I wanna know Clinton

I really want to know!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:48 PM

Here is an article from ABC about Hill.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raptor
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:22 PM

So they are going to murder a murderer for murdering someone who he considered a murderer?

What is That?

Raptor

(pro-Choice BTW)

(but Against Death Sentance)

(Bring it on)

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raptor
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:25 PM

They are going to abort Paul Hill in his 147TH Tri-mester!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:31 PM

He should be kept in prison until he dies. His execution will give the anti-choice people a martyr to emulate and does nothing to bring back his victims. Murderers should be sentenced for life, no parole, barring any new evidence of DNA, etc. which may prove innocence.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: GUEST,irishajo
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:49 PM

When will America wake up to the reality that this kind of madness is a pestilence whatever religion it comes with?

Many of us are quite well aware of it. Particularly those who were once part of a fundamentalist sect and are trying to learn to live normal lives. Please don't paint with such a broad brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:51 PM

"He should be kept in prison until he dies."

What a serious waste of money!

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:58 PM

Clinton,

Do you mean what you've said in this thread, or are you comments a joke?

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 05:10 PM

They might be 10-20% joke...

I see death sports being a thing in the future, and really I have no problem with it at all... It worked for the Romans, and theirs was the longest lasting 'civilisation' to date (except maybe the Egyptions, except that getting the 'experts' to agree is too difficult at this point... but I digress...) With Real TV, and Darwin Awards as entertainment, can "The Running Man", and "Car Wars" really be that far away? I don't think so...

I also think that flat out, there are people who need killin'... Paul Bernardo, and that psycho-bitch wife of his who's name escapes me as an example just off the top of my head... If they ever catch the guy whose story I saw on last nights "Cold Case Files"... currently known as The Real Nightstalker, in California.. responsible for over 50 rapes, and more than 10 murder/rapes... I say he needs to be put down like a rabid dog...

In all seriousness, I don't know much about the specifics of this Paul Hill guy... I am speaking in more general terms than him...

And yes... I think that over all prison is a waste of money... It's simply NOT effective as a deterrant...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 05:36 PM

I was wondering whether to start this thread myself earlier to debate exactly those issues and paradoxes which Fionn raised. It has not been one of Mudcat's better ones so far.
    For us Liberals/Lefties/Do Gooders or whatever we can be called, it has been a good test of conscience. Paul Hill is an unrepentant murderer. He is also what I would call a moral fascist. He gives himself the right to make other people's moral choices for them - and then to kill them if they make a different choice to his own. He can hardly expect sympathy from us - and indeed he doesn't have it. It is still quite wrong - and foolish - to execute him.
      Perhaps the most striking aspect of Paul Hill's case was that the likes of myself and other Lefties did so little to save him. It would have been a very good opportunity to demonstrate who is really concerned with saving human life and who really has a more optimistic view of human nature.
      As one who has occasionally been on the receiving end of chastening comments from Clinton Hammond, I would urge our anonymous guest to at least credit the man with a sense of irony!

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 05:52 PM

I have so many different opinions about the death penalty and criminal justice in general, I end up arguing with myself!

There flatly IS no easy answer, as harsh penalty systems get abused sometimes convict the innocent, and weak ones keep the prisons filled with an array of the worst of society and cost way too much for what they achieve.

I think I'd like a system where hard-core anti-social misfits are simply weeded out, as we identify them, like bad apples in a barrel, 'without prejudice', leaving the streets safer for those who at least TRY to be decent citizens.....but I have no idea in hell how to administer such a system fairly.

The universe in general has no 'reverence' for life, we humans (some of us) created it a practical concept to codify behavior and avoid the worst of the chaos that ensues when no rules are enforced.

I think that gratuitous killing is a bad idea, and would NOT like Clinton's semi-tongue-in-cheek call for televised executions, as it would numb us until we were too jaded to care(getting close already).....but there ARE people who are simply beyond salvage. If I were in charge of that aspect of it all, I think that executions would happen quietly, simply, behind closed doors, and with NO announcements to the press...just a call to relatives that the departed was available for burial, if they wished.

..and yes, I would worry constantly about the occasional conviction of an innocent person....so maybe I'm not the right man for the job, hmmm?
See? NO good answers.....

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 05:58 PM

" See? NO good answers....."

That's the best post so far in this thread, Bill!

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:20 PM

Seems to me there are three sorts of killing involved in this. There is the killing carried out by Paul Hill. There is the killing carried out by the abortion clinic. And there is the killing of Paul Hill carried out by the state.

There are some people who think one of these types of killings are OK, and the other two are wrong; and some people who think that two out of the three are OK, and the other one is wrong. There are of course differing opinions as to which of the types of killing are OK and which are wrong.

And there are some people who think all three are wrong, which seems to me to be the most consistent view.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:31 PM

What's so bad about worrying over "occasional" wrong convictions, Bill? Sounds like you'd be a better state governor than some others (the republican governor of Illinois being an obvious and honorable exception of course).

irishajo, if I undertand you right, you are definitely not among those I was intending to splash with my broad brush. I just think that where fundamentalism takes people to Hill-type extremes we need to be clear that their first responsibilities are to those they share the planet with, rather than any particular god/code they might have got into their heads.

I hold Hill's supporters every bit as guilty as he is (was? not sure if his hour is come), but equally I believe that in many cases such people are victims of brainwashing, where but for the grace of God.....

If you have been anywhere near there, irishajo, then I wish you the very best in reclaiming your life. Your experience tends to support my point that if he had lived, Hill might have got his head sorted out and "repented," as the believers would say. Although I am a believer, I don't like seeing people being denied that chance, any more than I like seeing people being murdered. (And people will be murdered with or without a death penalty, Clinton.)

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:41 PM

Hadn't seen that post, McG. I don't think the rights and wrongs of abortion come into this particular case, in that Hill would be deemed a murderer by anyone in his right mind.

Just out of curiosity,though, can I take it you subscribe to the "consistent" view? Or are you with Churchill, who said he'd "rather be right than consistent"? If the former, are their any exceptions? And if you do acknowledge exceptions, would you still call abortions "killings" in such cases?

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:46 PM

"Sounds like you'd be a better state governor than some others?"

that's because you haven't seen my entire platform *grin*...The job I want is "Emperor of the Universe", but once I explain ALL my plans I will get NO votes.

Actually, I think I'd be a decent governor if I had the job, but I'm too lousy a politician to ever be elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Leo Condie
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:03 PM

Uhh Clinton, it didn't really work that well for the romans, as they had a barbaric and chaotic society rampant with murder and rape.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raptor
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:10 PM

I'm gonna be real crass here Take that as a warning!!!!!





I just saw one of those web sights that claim to be pictures of aborted fetuses! What a load of shit! Abortions do not have reconizable features. These pictures are sick! put out as propeganda, to further the belief that abortions happen to fully developed fetuses!

If abortion is murder so is jerking off cause you didn't let the baby live when you washed your hands!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:41 PM

Well, it's done; he's gone. (For those who belief in spirit, where does it go post release??) Buddy Tabor, in one of his songs, wrote:

Like the wind- where does it come from?
And like the soul of man- where does it go?

I agree with those above who tend to think that killing-by-state is unjustifiable- you gotta admit that in some cases, killing is simply too good for them. Incarceration without possibility of parole seems a greater punishment. (And Clinton, they've done studies that show that prison is much cheaper than execution, given capital punishment's appeals.)

Has anyone else heard Sister Helen Prejean speak? She tends to make a believer out of one.

McGrath, I agree that it seems like some people cannot be salvaged- but where does one draw the line? I've seen and heard of youngsters one would be willing to bet will come to a very sad end, and taking others with them. Should we erase them, before they do their stuff? Or do we wait, giving them more chances, until they are, say, 35 years old when they've reached an age where they're not likely to change? What about those who, against all odds, do?

I agree that there don't seem to be any definitive answers. A moratorium on state-sanctioned killing seems a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:44 PM

"Hill would be deemed a murderer by anyone in his right mind."

I'm not so sure about that, Fionn. For anyone who thinks abortion is a kind of murder and who also believes it's a good thing to kill murderers justifying Hill's action is just a step away.

Whether that counts as being "in his right mind" is another matter, but I'd suspect it might be a view held by a good number of solid citizens.

Mind I think anyone like that would have one hell of a nerve saying they were "pro-life".

I think that a society which accepts the death penalty damages itself in all sorts of ways, and this is just one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:50 PM

Mmmmm ! The problem is that Capital Punishment is final - and not applied with any equity. A little digging on that period between 1800 and 1840 (circa) when the "Bloody Code" was the main feature of British Justice will indicate that - If you were poor and 'friendless' you choked, in public, whilst you danced the "Tyburn Jig" - Interestingly some juries would not convict, or took conveluted paths to find the value of goods stolen less than the "Capital" ammount.

Does this sound familiar to our US of A members ?????

Personally I have no difficulty with the concept of a judicial system having the right to kill a convicted culprit, provided it is done humanly (SP) and with dignity. ie NO T.V. spectacle etc.

The problem is in the UK (and US of A) is the adversarial (SP) system of a trial. "Discredit" evidence, and may the best paid Lawyer win.

The Police are not infailable, and there have been some spectacular miscaridges of justice in the UK, possibly due to "pressure" on the police to get a result or smooth public disquiet.

A more investgative approach by the courts might have produced different results.

For instance - In the case of the Birmingham Six I have no doubt that they were inocent of the bombing of the Mulberry Bush Pub. I am not convinced that they were not set up by the perpertrators to act as decoys whilst the real facists escaped. Unfortunatley this aspect seems to have been ignored. And I would also venture to suggest that it is possible that some senior police may have realised this, hence the non objective evidence produced in court to secure a conviction, to save Police faces.

My objection to capital punishment is more practical - It puts a pressure on the Jury, and may result in the aquital of the guilty, which is an equal a miscarridge of justice as the conviction of the innocent.

Possibly an unfashionble view, but I will stand by it.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:56 PM

Not "Farewell..", but "Good riddance to a self-righteous murderer".

I *definitely* side with Clinton on this one. You can be as smug & self-righteous as you want, but when you go *that* far across the line that society draws...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:01 PM

Incidentally, (And Clinton, they've done studies that show that prison is much cheaper than execution, given capital punishment's appeals.) isn't an argument against CP, it's an argument against the judicial process that allows endless appeals & 20-odd years on Death Row! CP is quick & cheap, "justice" is slow & expensive, and (as Gareth says) usually belongs to the bloke wot has the most money! :(

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:17 PM

And of course, once they are dead the chances that they might be shown to have been unjustly convicted diminishes greatly, which saves a lot of embarrassment as well as a lot of money.

True enough locking up innocent people for years isn't that much better than killing them. But I think the Birmingham Six and the Guildhall Four and all the other cases like that would confirm that it is preferable.

The American system of locking people up for years and then eventually killing them, when they are in many ways completely different people, appears to provide the worst of both worlds.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:24 PM

Err Kevin - don't yer mean the Guildford 4 ????.

Now I may have a difficulty, if the London Guildhall had been blown up, as considering that a crime, but please !!!

Gareth

With Moscow Gold and Dynamite, we'll set the masses free,
Oh tis' my delight on a Friday Night, to bomb the burgousie.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:34 PM

Quite right, I meant Guildford - it's late at night. Mind I was always surprised the Guildhall never got blown up. It did get gutted in the Blitz, mind.

I think it's a great building. Pity it isn't used for some more useful purpose by some more useful people. It'd make a great pub. Musicians' galleries and all. The Friends of Mudcat, that's what it needs.

This thread is drifting rather far from shore...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: kendall
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:36 PM

There are so many misconceptions around this issue.
First, murder is a specific legal term, and it is not adjustable according to some fanatics outrage.
Legally, abortion is not murder, like it or not.

Two, According to the recent translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls, "Thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation. The real meaning is, thou shalt not commit murder.

Who, in his right mind thinks that this asshole is going to be rewarded in heaven? Who thinks he is not even going to heaven?

In any case, the state is going to set him free, and he belongs in prison for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Susan from California
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:52 PM

I am pro choice and anti death penalty and it makes me mad every time the govt kills someone for me, without exception. Someone asked up there who Paul Hill was. He was a virulently anti-choice man who murdered an abortion provider.

Some say that being pro choice and anti death penalty is inconsistent. I don't believe that it is. I am pro choice because there is no way to prove that what I believe (that life begins at conception) is the truth. Since the time when life begins cannot be proven, it is a decision best left to women in consultation with their doctors and their spiritual advisors. But Paul Hill was clearly alive, and I for one, am saddened by the loss. Killing someone for killing someone else makes about as much sense to me as a parent who smacks "Johnny" for hitting his sibling.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 09:01 PM

Well, ain't this somethin'???

Here a confessed premediated murderer gets a *45-mics-'n-cameras-in-yer-face* heros send off while down in Texas, the innocent Willie Brown's are still be murdered by the state with not a single peep...

Screwed up!!! No, very screwed up!!!!

Bobert

p.s. The entire capital punishment thing is screwed up! It violates humanity....

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 09:59 PM

Well, okay. I believe in the concept of the "bad seed" -- you know, where folks say "All his kin were good, God-fearin', law-bidin' people who never did nothin' but good, and he went a took a chainsaw to his mother, a woodchipper to his daddy, and then got a speedin' ticket to top it all off!" Or, "He was a good kid, an honor student, taught Sunday School! How could he do this?"

You've heard those sorts of statements. You can't explain it; something is rotten inside those people.

What does society do with such people? What does society do when ANYONE has shown themself to be a danger to the social fabric?

We "cast them out" -- put them in jail. If what they have done is judged evil enough, society does the ultimate "casting out" by executing them.

We'd better be as certain of their guilt as it is possible for a human to be -- "beyond a reasonable doubt" and probably the best that fallible humanity can hope for.

I favor the "no human contact approach." So they go mad, so what? But if we MUST kill them, then let's do it quickly, humanly, quietly, and economically. I myself prefer that they be hanged, as was done in England: 13 seconds from the time the executioner took hold of the condemned to the time the vertebra was snapped in one case.

We have to get over the idea that this is "vengeance" and realize that it is something that should be done as quietly and quickly as is consistent with humaneness.

And it should be infrequent....

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 10:03 PM

Well I do occasionally stick my head above the parapet to say a word on behalf of the Willie Browns too, Bobert. Raedwulf, you might like to check out why the governor of Illinois put a stop to all executions in that state back in, I think, January this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:06 PM

"as they had a barbaric and chaotic society rampant with murder and rape"

Lemme quote Ghandi, when he was asked what he thought of Western Civilisation, he said, "I think it would be a wonderful idea."

"prison is much cheaper than execution, given capital punishment's appeals"

That tells me that there's a serious problem with your appeals process...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:09 PM

And good on the Governor of Illinois! He realized that after a bunch of law students found that lots of folks on Illinois death row were, ahhh, innocent, that continuing to put innocent folks to death was, ahhhh, like purdy danged wrong. Like, I said, good on him. Now, how about the rest of the governors....

Death is irreversable....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:23 PM

I guess my question is... should a multiple murderer get the same sentence as someone who's only committed one murder? It seems to me like there needs to be something beyond life in prison for people who do the most heinous deeds. I just don't know what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: NicoleC
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:56 PM

I used to be strongly pro-death penalty. I still have little sympathy for people who find that kind of anti-social behavior acceptable or even pleasant. (I may believe that the concept that murder is wring is a social one, and not a universal truth, but it's still our society, our rules, and those rules makes for a more orderly one.) Over time, I have become very anti-dealth penalty, at least in the practical application if not the moral application.

The truth is, justice is not certain and innocent people die. Even one is too many. Being fallible humans, this uncertainly about applying the death penalty isn't going to change short of some major evolution.

Secondly, I don't believe it's a deterrant. Instead, I think it has the opposite effect. By sanctioning killing as a penalty for killing, it blurs the moral issue, particulary for the very young (and impressionable) or those of defective intelligence -- and many murderers are.

Making a sport and spectacle of it is even worse, like the attempts to televise McVeigh's execution. Ironically, those who champion this are often the first ones to whine about how violent video games and movies are corrupting youth.

And third, I think the vast sums of effort and money spent trying to be sure the guy is really (or is not guilty), plus the huge cost of the execution itself, could be better spent on prevention. Very little effort goes into determining WHY these people are they way they are and how they get created. Maybe it's mental illness. Maybe it's physical illness.

Detour: About 80 years ago, a dentist by the name of Weston Price was searching for the cause of cavities and came across some astonishing correlation between the diet of both parents preceeding conceptionand the proponderance of both cavities and facial deformities in their children. Some of his research compared common facial deformities in mug shots of notorious criminals with those caused by nutritional deficiencies in parents -- many matches. Correcting facial deformities in children with Down's Syndrome (by using a new-fangled technique called 'orthidontry') improved behavior and brain function. Even he recogonized that these coincidences needed further research. (At the time, the theory was that physical deformities were caused by racial mixing, but the deformities he is speaking of are ones that wouldn't be obvious to the average layman as such. The photos in the book are most illuminating.)

And yet, no one every dicusses criminal behavior as a potential disease that can be a) prevented or b) corrected. It's always "the upbringing" or the person is "just bad." Some might be one or either -- but what about other triggers and causes that might substantially reduce violent crime? Isn't that better than killing the guy AFTER he's made comeone a victim?

Then again, we could tell potential parents that eating ice cream definately caused mass-murdering children, and sales would probable still tick along. End Detour.

And finally, I have no desire to kill anyone save in a last ditch self-defense. We live in a democracy (still, I think), so when the government kills someone I think the blood is on every citizen's hands. It's like folks who eat meat but wouldn't kill to survive. Just because someone else does the dirty work, it doesn't you aren't responsible for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 12:02 AM

He was a brave man of God fighting for what he knew was right....may Heaven's Gate swing wide to welcome him home.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Troll
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 12:17 AM

Ok, so we should keep the bastards alive because executions are "barbaric" etc.
Now one of you social theorists explain to me why it is ok to use the tax money of the victims and/or survivors to support the person who deprived them of a husband, wife, or child. Absobloodylutely NOTHING is done for the victims and, to add insult to injury, they are FORCED by the state to assist in the upkeep of the one who victimized them.
This support includes food, shelter, medical care, free educational opportunities and entertainment in the form of satelite TV and shows. Some prisons even allow conjugal visits.
In the meantime, the victims struggle with trying to raise a family with one parent, trying to make ends meet and scrimping on things like medical insurance, adequate food and shelter, etc.
In the meantime, the author of this misery has his or her every need supplied and all the bleeding hearts cry about "injustice" and "inhumanity".
You want injustice and inhumanity?
Look at the plight of the victims for a change. Write letters about THEM. Hold candlelight vigils for the child who will never know his father; the mother who will never see her daughter blossom into young womanhood.
But we don't see any of this happening. I guess it doesn't make good copy. Victim stories don't make good sound bites.
It makes me want to puke.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 12:58 AM

I forgot to say, as I have in long-ago threads, that I believe prisons should be self-sufficient, at least as far as the inmates growing their own food, etc. I do not think it should be a pleasant place to be and making them work to shoulder the responsibility of their own upkeep would not only free up some taxes, but also help them, those who can be helped, to feel more self-confident, etc....perhaps even be rehabilitated. Regardless, I still think murderers should remain without parole unless new evidence comes to light such as DNA which proves their innocense.

Now we know why Clinton makes all of that chain maille...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 01:07 AM

I'm against the death penalty because I think it lets them off too easily. I think heinous criminals should be kept alive and exhibited to the public. The state could charge admission and thus defray the cost of incarceration. Five bucks to look. Ten bucks to verbally abuse via one-way intercom. Twenty bucks to spit on 'em. Hell, if Florida had kept Ted Bundy alive he would be as big a draw as Mickey Mouse. Talk about a boost for tourism. The parking lot of the State Prison in Starke would look like a Winnebago dealership.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 05:35 AM

Earlier in the thread (Clinton I think) -

I also think that flat out, there are people who need killin'

I agree totaly. But what about the other side of the equation?

I also think that flat out, there are people who need resurectin'

To do one without the other is very unfair isn't it? Who makes the decision as to who should be alive and who should not? Not me for one!

I am not copping out here. I don't accept that it is divine will or any such that should make these choices. I am just saying that I am not capable of making that sort of decision. Even if I was I could only do something about half of the puzzle.

To my mind anyone who thinks that they can decide what is right for someone else is not playing with a full deck. Yet every year millions of you vote for such people! I gave up years ago. The sooner the dictators take over the better. They cannot be any worse and at least we we be absolved of all responsibility...;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
(Partly serious. You decide which parts)