BS: Clark for Prez

Subject: BS: Clark for Prez
From: BlueJay
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:42 AM

So retired General Wesley Clark will be announcing his candicy later today. I am surprised that I am the first to start a thread on this announcement.
My initial assessment is that Gen. Clark is the only Democratic candidate who will defeat Bush in the 2004 election. Sorry, but none of the other candidates, Dean, Kerry, etc, seem to have the knowledge, experience and charisma as this guy. I predict now that Wesley Clark will be the next president of the USA.

I've seen him on a few news sources, but what convinced me was on the Bill Maher show. When asked about President Bush's triumphant landing in aflight suit on a US aircraft carrier, General Clark rresponded, (and the quote is not exact),

"He looked good in that flight suit, it's a good flight suit. Lots of American fliers have worn that same flight suit. Lots of American fliers have died wearing that same flight suit"

To me, this exposes Bush's hypocracy. I hope the American people will fucking PAY ATTENTION, and vote this loser out of office. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 07:39 AM

This is why my advice to various labor leaders and political leaders has been to "keep your powder dry". I don't know if Clark is the one, or not. But I do know that the only thing that matters to the progressives and moderates in this country is that we choose the candidate that can win.

The same rule applies here, though, that applies to Dr. Dean. Let us see how he appeals to the great middle. That is where campaigns are won and lost.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 08:15 AM

Just a point to those who would condemn Clark because of his military background: Washington, Jackson, Harrison, Lincoln, Grant, T. Roosevelt, and Eisenhower come immediately to mind (apart from Commander-In-Chief, Lincoln was the lowest-ranking officer). Research would, I'm sure, show others.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: beadie
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 09:13 AM

Let us not forget Pres. (Gen.) Zachery Taylor.

He was Mr. Lincoln's unit commander during the Blackhawk Indian War of 1838 after having served from the time of the War of 1812.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 11:10 AM

But of General Taylor is rather better known in folk circles for the time he tangled with Santy Anno - and was robbed of his victory by the folk process, which insists that he ran away!

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: beadie
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 11:47 AM

I didn't say he was a HEROIC (or even that successful) general . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 12:06 PM

Grant, Hayes and Garfield were all Civil War generals, all Republicans, all from the state of Ohio.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 12:16 PM

Bluejay,

Clark will have to do some accelerating to catch up with the lead Dean has established; and Dean's credentials for the position are as good, considering that he did a lot more for Vermont than Bush did for Texas as Govenrors. My 2 cents' worth.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 01:34 PM

Trouble with that hypothesis, Amos, is that it ignores two facts. First, is the general dissatisfaction that the middle is feeling (rightly or wrongly)with the current choices. I really like Dean's take on the issues, but it would be wrong to assume that folks are buying into and not being susceptible to the perception of him being too far left. Second, we do not yet know Clark's ability to capture the popular imagination quickly. I have to tell you that Clark, if he is only a moderately good speaker, with the right message will surge quickly. It really isn't about the relative records, it's about whether he can capture enough money quickly to get his message out. Tell me all you want about the issues, but I understand what politics are about in the good, old USA. It isn't about what's real, it's about what is perceived to be real. This is going to be an interesting few months. Full speed ahead.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:26 PM

Well, not that I'm ready to jump on Clark's bandwagon here, but he certainly appears to have more of that huff 'n puff downright toughness that Southerners seem to think is important than does Bush. You wrestle the South away from Bush and hold the states yer 'sposed to and should, and Bush is history.

Yeah, I can see the debates now. Clark to Bush: "Now come clean on yer deck landin' 'er I will do it for ya'!" Yeap, if we thought Bush looked small last time, you'll need a magnifying glass to find him this time...

BTW, anyone else of the opinion that Bush lost all 3 debates to Gore. Hey, I voted Green but I did watch these danged things and thats the way I saw it. But the press gave two to Bush with one being a tie? Go figure?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:11 PM

Those aren't debates, they're Q&A sessions. A true debate would be on one point ("Mr. Bush, Mr. Dean, there is considerable unemployment in the country right now. The policies of Mr. Bush do not seem to be making a dent in the problem. Please discuss the benefits and limitations of these policies."

Bush would speak for, say, 10 minutes, stating his position. Dean would do the same. Then Bush again for 10 minutes, and Dean again. Then each would be given 15 minutes to rebute points the other had made. None of this "Mr. Bush, please explain yourself crap.

I do think that GWB stands right small next to Clark, but then again GWB stands small next to the guy who sweeps the streets here.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:15 PM

Clark certainly looked presidential on Bill Maher's show, and when Maher asked him to declare that "liberal" is not a dirty word, he said: "I will say so right now! This country was founded as a liberal democracy."

Of course we'll have to find out where he stands on issues like tax cuts, abortion, death penalty etc.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:30 PM

there are at least 4 or 5 of the Democrats that I think I could expect to do a decent job AS president, but only 2-3 of those who I think have a chance of BECOMING president, due to style, image and 'baggage'...waiting to hear some more substantive speeches. (and hoping against hope that someone will address some of the truly important issues, rather that just the 'hot' topics of the day. Clark sounds decent so far...we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:50 PM

All I want is one decent person to step out in front. So far, Dean's decency and personal charisma capture my fancy. But as long as someone displaces the rancid, putrid clump of yahoos and bully boys currently infesting the Capitol, I don't mind who does it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 04:13 PM

Sorry folks, but when Middle America finds out that Gen Clark is the one who sent 17 tanks into Waco, where over 80 people were killed, he will be toast. Prediction for 2004: Hillary wins nomination for pres with Sen John McCain as V.P.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 04:15 PM

There is an interesting artilce about Wesley Clark in a recent issue of Fortune magazine. They mentioned a poll { sorry I don't have more details } - when they asked voters if they would vote for Bush or an unnamed canidate with Wesley Clarks qualifications 40 per cent said Bush and 48 per cent went with the unnamed canidate..

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 04:26 PM

Trouble with your theory, Wesley S, is that they eventually have to give this "unnamed candidate" a name...downhill from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:04 PM

The guy has military, but no prior governmental qualifications. Why would that make him a more desireable President -- or even a more persuasive President -- than one who had successfully governed a state and managed a very large budget?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:08 PM

Well, I'm also open to Clark as a candidate but I'm curious how he'll respond to some questions from long-time peace activists with regard to his military record:

1. Clark is the cowboy who nearly started World War III in Kosovo. Only the insubordination of British General Jackson, who refused to send troops to the Pristina airport to prevent Russian troops from landing there, prevented what at the time was feared to be the beginning of a world war.

2. Clark was the commander of Ft. Hood at the time of Waco and supplied logistical support, training, equipment, and some say the battle plan for the massacre.

3. Clark was Commander-in-Chief of the US Southern Command in Panama at the time of the US invasion in 1989. Even pro-invasion former Canal Zone people living there at the time regarded him as a cowboy and to him, at the time, was attributed the provocations that provided the immediate justification for the invasion.

4. Clark parlayed Operation Just Cause (the invasion of Panama) and his role in it into a military strategy touting the benefits of "asymmetric war," and has advised Israel on how to use asymmetric force in subduing Palestinians.

These are not my questions but I'll be very interested in the response from Clark.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 06:53 PM

ohh..my! THAT Clark!....I think I re-think my thinking...*wry grin*

we want to replace Bush with a reincarnation of George S. Pattton? tsk!

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 07:25 PM

A far cry from Patton, Bill D. I'm with Bluejay all the way on this. From what I've seen of Clark, he's on his way to getting the Democrat nomination. Either that or it will go to someone who has not yet declared (but not Hillary). If Clark gets the nomination, he'll be president, no question. (And I'm happy to put money on it, pdq!) The 12th general to land the job, I think.

Amos, doesn't Clark have a fairly strong grounding in politics or economics as well as his leadership experience in the military?

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Alice
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 07:47 PM

I think Clark's entry into the campaign is a good thing. It reaffirms the fact that you don't have to be a Republican to be patriotic, you don't have to support Bush's policies to be militarily strong. I think it was good that he entered the field of candidates. I also think he would be a good Vice President or Secretary of Defense.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 08:06 PM

Wonder if Dean could talk him into VP?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Alice
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 08:28 PM

Dean and Clark have talked a lot recently. I was on a conference call with Governor Dean the other day. Many Dean supporters have been asking him to pick Clark as a VP. Dean said it was too early for any candidate to choose a VP, but he encouraged Clark to run as a presidential candidate. On the phone, he said Clark is a good man.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 08:33 PM

Well, Amos. I was thinkin' the same thing myself. But took it a step further. If I were Dean I'd just give Clark a call and ask him if he wanted to run a tag team going into the primaries. A tad unorthodox but, hey? Remember Bush having Powell in his camp before the S.C. primary? I think it would be a bold move, shut down a few other Dem campaigns and gine the Dean/Clark ticket a big jump on the campaign to oust the Bushwackers...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 10:33 PM

Yeeeha!!   

I'd like to see that -- the rational civilian who can play the blues in the first position, and a good military person with some brains in second.

(Dean could also ask Colin Powell to run the second position and they'd be a shoe-in. But I 'spect Colin's feeling a piece burned out from all the fabricating he's been forced into...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 10:47 PM

Well, heck, Amos. Howz 'bout invitin' Powell to be a real Secretary of State, rather than Rumsfeld's "Porch Negro"... Now, wouldn't that be somethin'... Now that would certainly right some wrongs... Yeah, I'd like to see what Powell can do, other than pick boss's cotton...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 01:59 AM

Why wouldn't Clark ask Dean to be his VP? I think that he would not be inclined to take the #2 slot yet, as the early (very early)view seems to be that he has at least as good a chance as Dean. Money, of course, will have much to do with all this. I would bet that he will run very strong. Look for Bush to replace Cheney, perhaps with Powell, if Clark runs as strong as the early numbers seem to indicate.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 08:44 AM

Mick,

I don't think Powell would accept a promotion from Rumsfeld "House Negro" to Bush's "House Negro"... If the man has any level of intregrity at all he'll just finish his stint and excuse himself from the entire mess....

And, yeah, yer right Clark/Dean works for me.... I think we'll know how much strength Clark has within the next month. The main thing for him to do is aviod mistakes that the press can blow out of porportion.

Either way, I'd rather see a ticket formulated before the convention so that there seems to be unity within the party early and everyone can get on board with a unified message around 2 or 3 big issues. National Security has to be one of them and Clark can hold his own (and some) with regards to that one.

As for the other two. Pick 'em. I personally like rolling back the tax breaks to the rich and sell it as "In these times when the working man is sacrificing to pay for National Security, it's immoral to give the upper 1% a hefty tax cut." My second issue would be health care.... But no matter. No more than three biggies of the voters will get confused.... And hammer early and often...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 08:52 AM

And stay focused on those three or four items -- don't go wandering off into side issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 09:41 AM

There's no doubt in my mind that Clark on the Democratic ticket will add necessary muscle. And I would dearly love to see the Bush Re-Election Campaign derailed. And I'm sure Republicans are worried a whole lot about a viable Clark candidacy, much more than about Dean or the other Democaratic candidates.

On a personal level, I need to read a whole lot more about his training and experience.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Alice
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:25 AM

Colin Powell has stated in the past that he would not run for President - and I think his reason would exclude VP, too. His wife and family really do not want him to do that and he gives them the last word. I wish the Republicans would have had Powell for their presidential candidate in the last election, and we wouldn't be in this mess. He does seem to have gone through a make-over being in the Bush administration... I had much more respect for Powell before the Iraq mess and might have voted for him for President if he ran.

Cheney is a Wyoming oil/energy man. He is part of the resource power elite and that is why he will stay on the ticket.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Peg
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:51 AM

I appreciate Clark's position on Bush's military wrong-doing...but it's a fair point that the man does not have the governing experience necessary to pull this sountry out of the economic mess Bush has us mired in...

BTW if you want an unofficial transcript of the Bill Maher interview, you can find one at www.wesleyclarkweblog.com.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Alice
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:02 AM

I'm hoping Select Smart will update their candidate selector soon with Clark's positions on issues.

http://www.selectsmart.com/president/

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:16 AM

Colin Powell was offered the job of Vice President, Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense. He Chose Secretary of State and is clearly a diplomat first and a military general second.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 12:47 PM

CORRECTION!!!

According to my Peace contacts:

"I mispoke regarding General Wesley Clark's role in the invasion of Panama. He didn't assume command of the Southern Command until 1996. General Maxwell Thurman commanded the invasion of Panama."

At least my friends still make an effort to verify their remarks on the internet.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: TIA
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 01:19 PM

Mind always on music, I read the first part of Amos' sentence...
"the rational civilian who can play the blues in the first position...", and thought he was implying he couldn't go up the neck. Rest of sentence quickly disabused that notion.

Someone asked about Clark's grasp of the economy. I heard somewhere that he taught economics at West Point. Is this true?

Dean/Clark...Clark/Dean...hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 01:26 PM

SOrry, TIA -- I should have written "the rational civilian (who can play the blues) in the first position".

What it is see, is that I secretly believe that the ability to play the blues well is a kind of intelligence test far more accurate than the mechanistic sort espoused by the psychological weenies. (Oh, sorry, Harp!! :>)))

The litmus test is whether or not one can combine the words, emotions, and technical skills required ALL AT ONCE to create a persuasive presentation of affect. It's a purdy good test when you think about it!!

And maybe other kinds of music -- providing they contain genuine emotion--could qualify similarly, such as Zydeco. But not the super-refined stuff with the false veneer. We can leave that to the Bush WHackers.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 01:41 PM

So can these guys play the blues or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 02:05 PM

As to the statement, repeated above several times in essence, that Clark doesn't have governmental experience, I have two things to point out:

1. He DOES have lots of experience running large organizations. Yes, it's true he doesn't have political (as in beating the bushes for votes) experience, but if you don't think there's a lot of politicking necessary in the rise to and executing general's rank in the Army, you're sadly misinformed, say I.

2. No significant public officer is just an individual. He (she?)is a team, with experts, specialists, allies, and advisers--and with obligations and debts which have to be served, for good or ill. This applies whether the officer is a judge, a governor, a legislator, a general, or POTUS. So one needs to look at the connections a candidate makes, the quality of his support, and try to find out what kind of management style he exemplified in his tenure as a commanding general. Eisenhower, for instance, was a "staff general", building bridges, maintaining consensus both within his staff and in relations with WW II allies. A "top-down" general would be a different kind of potential president altogether.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: TIA
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 02:13 PM

In answer to MoH's question...

(excerpt from Christian Science Monitor article, May, 2002)

"Howard Dean tips back his cowboy hat, adjusts his guitar, and lets fly some fancy finger picking. The crowd of state lawmakers hoots in delight, clearly surprised at their 11-year incumbent governor's musical prowess. They roar even louder as he launches into a parody of his recent cross-country travels to the tune of "On the Road Again. "Just a nonpolitical tour of the United States," he croons, his female staff singing back-up vocals. "Everyone's my friend, if they're from a state with lots of delegates, but I'm not a candidate.... Yet!""

Off to check on Clark's musical ability...

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 02:16 PM

Isn't the fact that he hasn't got governmental experience likely to be a positive thing for a lot of your voters?

Is there any evidence that people with lot of governmental experience are any particular use? After all, being governor of a huge state like Texas sounds as if it would be a guarantee of some kind of competence...

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 03:07 PM

Regarding Clark and various invasions, etc.:

In the US, civilians run the military -- says so in the Constitution, and EVERY member of the Armed Forces takes an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Thus, if Reagan (I have a personal problem with adding the word "President" to his name) said to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, "Invade Canada" the invasion would be the responsibility of the President, NOT of the JCS.

However, no member of the US Armed Forces is required to carry out any order which they find illegal-- but you'd better be right about it, be willing to take the consequences, or be willing to quit rather than compromise your opinions.

I want to hear more about Clark, though, before making any decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: TIA
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 03:28 PM

Haven't found anything on his musical abilty, but he studied economics at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar. Also, currently a licensed investment banker.

His economic credentials seem better than Bush's military credentials.

Now, what instrument does he play.....

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 08:38 PM

I think this must be a different Wesley Clark. Shame really - he appears to be musical enough.

Though look what happened when you had a saxophone player for President. And Tony Blair can play guitar. Doesn't really help.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: curmudgeon
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 08:50 PM

The reference to playing blues guitar was Howard Dean, not Wesley Clark. But maybe, like Schwartzkopf he plays autoharp?

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Peg
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 04:51 PM

Dave O. (and others): I think the concern over Clark's lack of experience in government might be amended to suggest he has    little experience with ECONOMICS: balancing a budget, seeing   trends, understanding how to keep social programs afloat even in the midst of cuts, etc. One also fears he might want to spend an exhorbitant amount on military funding and we simply don't need any more of that in the near future. Our economy is tanking and the rest of the world hates us. Our next prez has his or    her work cut out.
I think he'd be great to have in the cabinet, though. Maybe as Chief of Staff? That guy Leo Mcgarry on The West Wing seems to run the country.
(sigh)   yes, I would like to have Martin Sheen for president right about now, as a matter of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 07:04 PM

I don't believe any of those guys has enough experience to run the country. Clinton took 3-4 years to catch on. Bush still hasn't caught on. I want to see a whole bunch more of Clark before I believe in him. And a whole lot more of Dean, although I like him. It's a job that requires a lot more in the way of understanding, political skills, communication skills and force of personality than specialized knowledge.

I disagree with Mick. This election won't be won in the "great middle." Things have changed a lot since 1992. Even a General from Arkansas is not going to carry Arkansas, if he's a Democrat. To win, a Democrat is going to have to bring out the Democrats, en masse, in places like Ohio, Florida, New Jersey. To do that, Clark will have to discover some populist roots. Bottom line: I vote for whoever the Democrats nominate (unless it's Lieberman - then I guess I turn Green).

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 07:22 PM

I believe this will be a Dewey versus Truman kind of election with a nasty surprise biting the Republicans. Keep your fingers crossed!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Clark for Prez
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 07:29 PM

Turns out Clark was fired by the Pentagon, ostensibly for being hard to get along with. This is from Richard Cohen's Washington Post column, Sept. 18:

...then-Defense Secretary Bill Cohen, joined by many of Clark's colleagues, came to just plain dislike him... He won the respect, even the awe, of his colleagues, but too much of the time he did not win their friendship. The rap on Clark is that he lacks precisely those qualities that define a politician, particularly warmth and affability... even his most steadfast champion in the army, Gen. John Shalikashvili, recognized that Clark was too brash, too cocky, too driven, too self-absorbed, too hard on subordinates, too dismissive of critics and criticism - but, also, too brilliant and talented to be overlooked... the personal qualities that bothered his critics would be intolerable in a president.

FWIW...

Cheers,
Michael