What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)

Subject: What's with the Grove?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 01:19 PM

I have never been to the Grove folk club in Leeds, reputedly one of the most successful north of Watford, though I hope to make it up there some Friday in the new year. But the last couple of weeks when I mentioned it to some people on the circuit I got back mumbles about "trouble at t'mill". Is this PEL related, or is there something else? Can some of the Yorkshire Mudcatters shed some light?

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:14 AM

I was right - sad to say, it looks like some sort of sudden change of management, for whatever reason. I guess there is some story behind this. Here's an extract from their website:

QUOTE
A new management group has recently taken over the running of the club, and I am no longer associated with it in any way.

However, I should like to thank all those folks from near and far – audience and performers alike – whose support I have valued over the past three years or so. These folks have clearly become accustomed to a welcoming atmosphere, distinctive style and a professional level of organisation at club evenings. The approach, based on integrity, commitment and a genuine enthusiasm for the music, has been endorsed by the many positive comments received while I have been involved with the running of the club. So thank you again for your support.

You will of course make up your own minds about the new-look Folk At The Grove…

David Kidman
(Former Co-organiser, The Grove Folk Club)
UNQUOTE

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove?
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 12:12 PM

Sorry to hear this. Dave has been a great help to my partner Julie and has always struck me as a thoroughly nice bloke.

Dave and Geoff did a great job at this terrific venue and it is unfortunate that I have been unable to attend more often. Dave did mention falling attendances in the last issue of the "Tykes News" magazine, which covers the area, so maybe this is related.

In any case, a public thank you to Dave for his work in the past. I am sure he will emerge elsewhere on the scene.

Best regards
John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove?
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 12:51 PM

I know nothing of this change as yet, but shall watch with interest. Dave has a habit of falling out with people though,I had to firmly tell him once that I decided who would be Master of cerimonies at the General Ludd folk club, and it was not negotiable!

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 02:17 PM

I am quite devastated to hear that Dave has parted company with the Grove.
When Anahata and I played there we were given a right royal welcome and the atmosphere was wonderful. And I am sure that Dave had a good deal to do with that.
Dave has been responsible for much more than running a successful trad folk club though - his performing, writing and especially reviewing are well respected (and even dreaded by some performers!). I somehow don't think that this is the last we will hear of him.
All the best, Dave,and thank you for what you have done.
Mary

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 05:22 PM

Dave is very much better for knowing and is a very intellgent and witty writer. I do hope things get resolved -bloody politics gets everywhere!!

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: John Routledge
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:37 AM

We will be there on Friday to hear Louis Killen - Plug Plug :0)

As this will be my first visit and I am fan of Louis from the sixties I hope everyone has as good a night as we will.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Alio
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 05:20 AM

I agree with Linda. The club has always had such good press, which says a lot for both organisers. Let's hope they can get it sorted - quickly. Maybe Dave will see sense and go back - and the new organisers will see sense and welcome him back!

Ali

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: breezy
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:04 AM

I shall be meeting Dave this friday at the Comfort in St Albans.
I was an attendee at the grove from 1964-67.
Was Dave there then?
It 1/11 for a pint 4/10 for a gallon of petrol.
Hate photographers

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Tig
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 05:12 PM

Hey Breezy - that means we must have met!

I was one of the mob from Leeds from 1966.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Greycap
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 03:13 AM

Tig 'n' Breezy,
I must have met you both there, too, I used to play with Nick Strutt aabout that time.
We were regular attenders

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: breezy
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:46 AM

you must be ancient cos I was the youngest one there every night.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:16 AM

Yes, Breezy's having to dye his hair grey just to fit in with the rest of us ;-)

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: treewind
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 06:16 AM

What's Dave K doing in St Albans?
We'll miss him (gigging somewhere else) otherwise we'd come and say hello.

BTW I don't think he has the choice of going back to the Grove, unless the new organisers give it up as a bad job. Let's just say that the change of management has been driven more by the new organisers than by any desire to leave on Dave's part.

Anahata

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: treewind
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 02:04 PM

All is clear now! Apparently it's next week at St Albans, Dave Webber and Anni Fentiman are the guests and Dave Kidman (who has been reading this thread, spooky eh?) is dropping in 'on the way' to Banbury Festival.

So Mary and I might be along for some of that - plenty of gossip to catch up, too many good people to see. And George, have your money ready!

Anahata

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: GUEST,jenup
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 02:09 PM

Treewind is right. Dave did not want to leave the club. Until Sept 12, as far as he knew, nothing was wrong. It was arranged that he would compere for Tom Lewis that night but 'out of the blue' he received a message that he was not welcome at the club. The following Wednesday, several people who do not usually come to the club turned up at the committee meeting and 'took over'. One of them is reported to have told the organiser of a neighbouring club on the previous day that he was part of a group who were 'going to get Dave Kidman out of The Grove'. It was not very nice and felt more like Watergate than a folk club meeting. Geoff, the club's main organiser, described it as a 'character assasination'. I have no idea why these people don't want to work with Dave. I have always found him a very nice guy - kind, thoughtful, a very conscientious club organiser and knowlegable about good music.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 02:58 PM

I can't see that anything is to be gained from washing this dirty linen in public, on an international forum.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Tyke
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:18 PM

What can I say!
Or more to the point what should I say!
Nothing would seem best!

However I can tell you that my understanding of the situation is.
That the Landlady told the Grove Folk Club! That Dave Kidman should not MC at the Grove Folk Club in future! As the Licensee rules what he or she say's goes! I will further add that the Landlady has supported the Grove Folk Club through thick and thin since she took over the Grove.

This left the friends of the Grove Folk Club with little choice. It was thought at first that Rachel the Licensee could be persuaded to allowed Dave to MC once a month. However Dave insisted in changing the agenda of the Meeting to propose that he should be allowed to MC more that once a month and especially for certain Guests that he had organised booking for. He suggested that they would be less than happy not to have him as MC. He produced written evidence in the form of an email from once Guest that extolled his virtues as an MC. Dave did point out that he had had nothing but praise from all the Guests. The Grove Folk Club Guest List is the envy of all the other club organisers.

No matter how easily we tried to let Dave Down he fail to see the plain and simple facts.
1)        No Guest is going to complain about the MC when the MC is doing the Bookings! Praise could be genuine or what is commonly know as Brown Nosing!
2)        You too could have a fantastic Guest List if you had an 84-year-old Pensioner to Bank roll you out off trouble. Dave is quite at liberty to start his own Folk Club and guarantee that the Guests get paid.
3)        The Grove Folk Club is on a Friday Night in The Grove Inn, Back Row, Holbeck, Leeds. The Licensee is a good one who has supported the Club over many years. If it moved it would not be The Grove Folk Club est. 1962
4)        A fair amount of the Grove Folk Club regular singers and supporter had stopped going to the Grove Folk Club because of Dave Kidman.
5)        Because of the Guest List that is the envy of all the other club organisers Singers Nights would have to be reintroduced to help fund said Guest List and keep Entrance Prices Down.
6)        Folk Clubs including the Grove need the support of local singers who have always been the backbone of Folk Clubs.
7)        Singers need the support of their Folk Clubs they deserve to be treated fairly and with the respect that they deserve.
8)        As for Falling attendances at the Grove Folk Club to which Dave Kidman referred to in his article which was published by both Tykes News and Folk Roundabouts Summer additions. Well, Dave was doing the Bookings and he was the MC. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot writing negative articles about yourself. Best to consider that the period referred to by Dave was at the height of a heat wave and the start of the Festival; season. Have you not heard of the Grey Pound Dave we all went to cool off at the seaside? Why Dave's negativity extended to his review on Cleckheaton Folk Festival. I have no idea but I'll quote one person that I spoke too "He obviously was not at the same Cleckheaton Festival as I was"

I was at the meeting I know what happened I witnessed the distress that Geoff Wood was going through at that meeting. Dave was upset we all felt sorry for him a quiet word in his ear might have been better. Hopefully all concerned will have learnt lessons. The Grove Folk Club will continue to be as it has been in the past a brilliant place for Live Acoustic Music. Dave will I'm sure continue contributing to the Folk World as a reviewer, MC and Guest Folk Artist. Perhaps you should have a word with your Folk Club/Festival organizer to see if they could make use of Dave Kidman's Talents.

Apart from that I agree with Noreen lets not do our washing in public and let this thread die. Just support your Local Folk Club and if you are in Leeds get yourself down to the Grove Inn especially on Friday Nights.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 07:30 PM

Thanks for that Tyke - I have to say, though, whilst it is very good to be able to keep a finger on the pulse of what's happening out in the clubs - I agree with you and Noreen that it's not always good to have the whole world have the opportunity to discuss your business. I'm sure that everyone on the thread has only good intentions but it just seems like...odd...dunno

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 08:10 PM

Tyke, my little sweetie, thats a vey succinct way of saying nowt, are you in the fair sea port this weekend, if so please enlighten me further.

By the way, is it your round?

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 08:31 PM

Having been in a similar situation (except that the Licensee was NOT involved) Club politics can be worse than National Politics.I hope that the Grove (what I aint never been to on my visits to Leeds)can
get things straightened out and continue to promote good acoustic / Folk music in the Tykes News Area

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:44 AM

Agree with Leadfingers. I'm sorry now I started this, I thought initially it might have been PEL-related. Never met David K, hope to rectify this when he comes to St Albans (I owe him big-time for a brilliant review of my stuff on Netrhythms). Never been to the Grove, hope to rectify this sometime soon - probably in January, when I come up that way for Nutty's Song And Ale.
In any case, wishing both David and the Grove the best - together or independently. The good names of both will surely shine through.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 06:43 AM

Don't want to air your dirty linen in public Tyke -after that character assassination? Shame on you.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: breezy
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 10:41 AM

May we see the autumn programme for the Grove here please.
Is the licensee working her own agenda?
Does she sign the artist's contracts?
Does she run the club?
Just want some background please so I can make up my own mind.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: GUEST,Chris Nixon
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 11:05 AM

I used to be a regular at the Grove in 67/68, in the days of Brian Senior...remember the baked spuds?
Cannot help thinking that in any voluntary organisation that's been going thirty odd years and has outstayed several licensees, there will from time to time be personality clashes and internal politics. The music is bigger than that, and will remain largely unaffected, even if it moves to a different venue. Let's hope you can find a way through this one - I might want to come back to Leeds.
KYBTTS
Chris

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 01:09 PM

I look forward to my gig at the Grove on Oct 17th.Will any Mudcatters be there?. Burl

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Grampus
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 01:58 PM

Current programme for the Grove is here
http://www.grovefolkclub.fsnet.co.uk/grove_programme.htm
Hope to see you there Burl

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: GUEST,Jim Lawton
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:04 PM

Well, I only know what I've been told about this, and I've no great desire to sort the wood from the trees, or the meat from the bones, but this thread was pointed out to me, and I've signed up to Mudcat just to say, that if we're taking sides, and "Tyke" whoever he is, is against Dave, then I'm with Dave all the way to the line.

Jim

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Bassic
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:30 PM

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the situation, I think both side of the argument have had an airing here now and further debate would benefit no one.

If this is what happens when a sad situation like this occurs, as it inevetably will from time to time, I can see the time comming when no one will be willing to offer their services, either as committee/helpers or as front person/organiser if their actions are going to be subject to such public exposure.

This is not public politics, life or death stuff here. It is a largely internal matter for the club concerned and in my view should remain so. I suggest the matter be left to rest, in private, with those concerned. If people feel the need to know more, there have been enough names named for them to be contacted in person. IMHO.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Alio
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 01:45 PM

Tyke, did it really have to take you 39 lines to decide that we shouldn't wash dirty linen in public?!!!

Jim, I'm with you!!

We teach children that they're not going to like everyone but we have to live together - why can't adults do the same?

Ali

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Bassic
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 01:50 PM

I give up!!!

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 05:01 PM

In Germany they first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me - and by that time, no one was left to speak up.

    Pastor Martin Niemoller

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: breezy
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:55 PM

I dont go for committees, it takes too long for decisions to be reached and time drags.
Also clubs can die on their feet.
Running a music venue is more an enterprise without the capitalistic demands and expectations,thus when a new'big venue 'appears ,it usually falls flat into the red.
Come to my 'club' and 'ave agood night out,with first rate residents and top line guests, and if you dont like it let me know, and I'll rectify the problem and keep you 'appy.
this week its Dave Webber and Anni Fentiman, 2 of Britain's finest exponents of the trad song without being boring and pompous, great chorus singing and harmonies are anticipated.
Comfort Hotel, on Holywell Hill, St Albans , Herts, England.

Doors open 7.38




Dave K will be popping in I hear.

Elles Belles play you in on malodeons and if Mary Humphries and Anahata turn up then they better come to play too.

and El Greko

Friday 10 th October

No freeloaders

All floor spots taken

n/week Johnny Collins

PM me for advance tickets which include seat reservations.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:43 PM

I'll join the chorus of those who would like to know less of this.

Anyone who has gone through the rise and fall of a Folk Club knows it's not a pleasant experience, and the details of who did what to whom seldom if ever inspire a good song.

But you could give it a try: "The Night the Old Leeds Folk Club Melted Down."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: breezy
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 10:15 AM

Its a bit like a football manager getting the boot for having too few spectators while he's paying the wage bill
If you're paying top dollar to see a guest then do you want to have to listen to 9 floor singers, no matter how good they are?
Many main acts are not happy at having others taking up their time and are asking to do the whole evening themselves.
Is the landlady paying/subsidising the cost of the main artist?
I doubt it.
Here's the spoon back.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: GUEST,GUEST Fred
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 05:55 PM

Gosh it's all so exciting! I just wanted to point out that someone called "Tyke" is not necessarily connected with the magazine, Tykes News, - most of those who write in it usually write English.....

But somebody should tell D. Kidman that he assassinated a band who still exist in one of his reviews in the last issue of Tykes' and that he didn't fulfill a promise to an artist to review a CD for Tykes last time despite promising that he would - so maybe Tykes won't accept any more of his reviews either?? Never mind - he still writes for Folk Roundabout.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: GUEST,Ewan
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 06:34 PM

You have a problem, Fred. Have you tried a counsellor?

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 07:21 PM

Breezy, are you a performer? Many, if not most, main stream performers I have met are only too grateful for someone to do the "sod spot" I.E warm up an audience.Most club organisers I know would kill for the opportunity to have 9 decent floor singers. Personally I would restrict this number and give them more than one song each but that's only my approach the running a club, which is not necessarily the most appropriate for this venue
As for the funding of the club, I would defer to people with accurate information

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Mermaid
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:06 AM

Been away awhile, only just caught up with this thread. Right, no washing dirty linen, OK, instead set the record straight, hear the plain facts from the reporting of X-File investigator Spooky – for the truth IS out there !

1.        Dave's always put the music first; he's never set out with the express aim of running a folk club. He came forward in response to club Organiser Geoff Wood's pleas for help around three years ago, and proved the only person on the local scene that Geoff could trust to keep the club going and build it back up from the doldrums. Geoff's gone on record saying that he has greatly valued Dave's reliability and expertise. Dave had been prepared to take on more of the workload from Geoff at a time when no other help was forthcoming.
2.        Note that the "friends of the Grove Folk Club" had not supported Geoff or his folk club over the past few years, preferring instead to do other things on Friday nights or else sing and play to their hearts' content in the Grove's session rooms. That Guest List Dave had built up ("the envy of all the other club organisers") caused the "friends" to reappear out of the woodwork and stage a comeback just in time to take the credit for Dave's hard work.
3.        As for "Tyke" 's assertion that Dave took advantage of "an 84-year-old pensioner to bank roll out of trouble", well Geoff always assumed sole responsibility for contracts himself, and was perfectly happy with (and insisted on) personally guaranteeing (if necessary) guests getting paid.
4.        I know no other folk club where a licensee has ultimate say-so regarding the actual running of the club. At the Grove, Dave was presented with a non-negotiable situation. The Landlady dictated that he must only MC on the first Friday of each month. This would have been unacceptable to any right-minded human being, let alone a volunteer. The Landlady's apparent antipathy towards Dave as Club Frontperson/MC is a mystery. As far as I know she's had no disagreement with Dave.
5.        Dave's given plenty of exposure to quality local singers when supporting the guests. He's always treated both these local singers/musicians and the main guests "fairly and with the respect they deserve". As for "Brown Nosing", well guests can sniff that out a mile off, and believe me, Dave wouldn't have the good reputation he does with the professionals if he were a brown noser.
6.        "Tyke" 's rambling posting says next to nothing. Nowhere is stated what is supposedly "wrong" (or undesirable) about Dave or his way of co-running the folk club.

Spooky forms the inevitable conclusion that the takeover was motivated solely by resentment, jealousy and envy rather than any real concern for the music or the club's future.

So Dave, if you ever get to reading this out there (hey, it's time you too were a Mudcatter!), take comfort, and I'll pass on this message from Mike Silver – KEEP THE FAITH !

M.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:36 AM

At least it looks like Mr Kidman has a life. But blow me if a simple query didn't throw up one heck of a lot of diverse responses: From the 39-line meticulous hiding of the dirty linen (!) to Tyke News disclaimers, masses of unsolicited support for Mr K, some grumbles, revenge for a bad review of a group, and a few embarassed "let's forget it" moans (I put myself in that category)...Mr Kidman must be quite a guy, to provoke such feelings in people. Very intriguing.
And so I intend to find out for myself if this ogre really exists. Though I don't know him - other than the email contacts over his review of my material -, knowing that he's coming "dahn souff" for Dave & Anni's gig, I have offered him the hospitality of my floor for Friday night.
I hope this doesn't put me "beyond the pale" with anyone or anyplace, as I would certainly like to come up to the Grove some time.
Then again, perhaps I won't. Isn't it high time we shut this thread down?

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:55 AM

Mermaid-

Thanks for troubling to add some additional information and perspective.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: breezy
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 10:31 AM

Thank you mermaid.

The Dave and Anni referred to earlier are Webber and Fentiman who'll be at The Comfort Hotel,Holywell Hill, St Albans on Friday with Anahata and Mary H in a cameo role
Doors open 7.38
It doesnt take 9 floor singers to do the opening song.
Cant perform to save my life, so I boss people around.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: treewind
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 10:39 AM

In case anyone here doesn't know Breezy, he's being uncharacteristically modest. Of course he can perform, and he's good at warming up an audience and getting them to sing choruses.

Spot on about bossing 'em around, though.

A.

Subject: RE: What's with the Grove? (Leeds, UK)
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 12:48 PM

Enough already.