BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail

Subject: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Mickey191
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 11:45 PM

A Dad wanted to send his soldier son Christian reading material. The GI is serving in the Middle East. Dad went to a P.O. in Lenoir, N.C. & was told he was forbidden to post "any matter containing religous materials contrary to the Islamic faith."The Christian content of the material may be offensive to some Muslims overseas. (US Postal Bulletin 22097). How's that grab you???

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:14 AM

Fine. We're not over there to proselytize, are we? WHy should the boy need more than he could have carried with him in his kit? I agree it would seem invasive as hell if he were a private citizen, but he's a representative of the US Government.

A

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:32 AM

Every student of American country music knows that all his son really needed was A Deck Of Cards. Of course they may not allow gambling either.



      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Mickey191
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:46 AM

Amos, you took a heck of a leap there. Propaganda was not mentioned, he's not Billy Graham, jr. It just may be that he needed comfort. Did you ever pack for a trip & forget something?

Mark, maybe he's a Mozart fan.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: GUEST,Ed Who
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:54 AM

Iagree with Mark Clark, they should of had a Deck of Cards. That sure is a good old CW song. What the hell they have decks of cards with the pictures of the AH's their after

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 02:26 AM

I'm starting to think no one has actually followed my link.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Mickey191
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 02:37 AM

Mark, I went there-but it was not what I expected. Do you know where the original can be found? I did enjoy the dachshound poem. Cute site.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 03:19 AM

What is sent from me to someone else is noone else's business whatever country the postal service is located in. Why do they think they should have a look in the first place?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 07:34 AM

Well, if this is Iraq, one in twenty of the population is Christian anyway. Nasty as Saddam's regime was, it was not particularly sectarian sectarian in this way. Of course the US Army may not know about anything like that.

Of course maybe it is Saudi Arabia - essentially similar to the Taliban, but with money. And therefore counted as among the good guys (with a few rogue apples like the people who appear to have carried out and financed 911.)

Does this mean no Christmas Cards for the soldiers?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 07:52 AM

That postal bulletin does not include the "contrary to Christian faith" clause, which is outside the quotes above, anyway. Christian information is not contrary to Islam...I challenge anyone to find the word Islam mentioned anywhere in the Christian Bible. Sounds like either an overzealous postal clerk or a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 07:58 AM

I would suspect this would be Saudi Arabia, who are not mad keen on people reading bibles and so on, by all accounts.
   Iraq is a bit different. I was round at an Iraqi friends house last week( in England). My friend(who is a Muslim) got out some family photos to show me, of people back home in Iraq. One of the groups was standing in front of a tree in a pot, with cards and parcels and an unmistakable Santa Claus hanging on it. So I said "I thought you were Muslims". And he said "Yes, but we believe in Jesus as well".

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:18 AM

Dad might want to get in touch with a local military base and see if there's a way to send mail through military channels. We're in other people's countries and have to stick to their laws - there's no choice. But people in civilian Post Offices have 'all or nothing' rules so they don't have to make judgement calls - they probably don't deal with a whole lot of mail to Muslim countries. Most likely, there IS a judgement call that can be made by someone who knows what the actual laws are. Military postal employees or chaplains.

Amos, people in the military are allowed to have personal, off-duty lives and the laws do not change depending on whether a person is civilian or military.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:39 AM

Mickey191 is the one spreading propaganda. Here is a link to the Postal Bulletin he cited:

Summary of Postal Bulletin

Here is the only citation for Iraq, which is Postal Bulletin 22100, not 22097:

"Iraq: Effective April 7, 2003, international mail service to Iraq is suspended. This suspension will remain in effect until it is possible to transport mail to Iraq. This suspension of service does not affect mail service provided through military post offices. (Postal Bulletin 22100, 4-17-2003)"

I'm guessing Mickey191, a good Christian soldier, got his information from someplace like this right wing fundamentalist website:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34866

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:41 AM

Islam does accept Jesus as one of their prophets - they just don't accept that he is the Son of God.
It does make you smile though doesn't it - it's OK to invade their country, blow it to smithereens, kill and maim their citizens, but whatever you do folks,..........don't offend them!!!
Dear oh dear......beam me up Scottie........beam me up.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:10 AM

I had such a hard time believing this I searched the www.usps.gov site until I found this pdf file of said bulletin. On Page 33, item E2 does say any religious material contrary to Islam, etc. is prohibited, but it does not specifically say just "Christian" material. It also doesn't give a reason.(Sorry, Mickey, I think the report you read has been sensationalised a tiny bit.)

While it is a bit shocking, I am wary of the possibility of anyone wanting to proselytise and would hope that a soldier would have remembered to pack whatever they felt they might need, i.e. a bible, prayer book, etc. and that they have been instructed to keep it to themselves.

We are there as interlopers, imo, and have no business complaining about any restrictions which may help with positive relations with teh Iraqi people.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:11 AM

Here is the link to the specific Postal Bulletin Mickey191 cited. The restrictions are mentioned on page 29, and defined on page 33.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:16 AM

Think they'll restrict "cross-posting" on the Mudcat, next?**bg**

BTW, "GUEST," Mickey is neither a propogandist, male, nor a soldier. If you'd been following recent threads you'd be aware of that.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: jeffp
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:28 AM

The restriction applies to certain APO addresses. These are Army Post Office sites. There may very well be alternative transportation available. Check with your local military base or USO for help. The Gideons may also be useful.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: GUEST,James
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:39 AM

I hate to say this Amos...but REALLLLLY; get a bit of prespective.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:39 AM

The International Postal Conventions allow countries to ban anything they like for any reason at all. For example, you can't send cigars to Cuba! I agree that by western standards, it's intrusive. But it's one of those things that make international mail work. What can you do?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:52 AM

I believe I have plenty of perspective, and the clarification fromt he source materials seems t support that. The restraint is on postal servoce to Army postal units in support of a diplomatic policy. No such restraint applies to general citizenry. It includes porno and semi-nude depictions in the samer breath. Whast do you think it was for?

A

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:54 AM

Cause only private citizens can be wankers? Nah...

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 10:18 AM

So "religious material which is contrary to Islamic faith" is firbidden. But if it's contrary to Christian, or Jewish, or Hindu etc faith it's no problem?

And what does "contrary to" mean? That it's directly attacking Islam? Which would be very right and proper. Or that the doctrinal position implied in the material is inconsistent with Islamic theology? Which would be bloody cheek.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Mickey191
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:08 AM

Thanks Kat. Guest, I did not specify Which country the article used the generic "Middle East", so therefore your P.O. code # is not applicable here.

I have not changed the substance of the story, written by columnist Michelle Malkin, which can be found on The Poughkeepsie Journal Editorial Page. Sat. 10/4.   Ten Four - over and out.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:27 AM

McGrath brings it exactly to the point:
Only contrary to Islamic faith material is forbidden in many countries in the Middle East.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:29 AM

I would say, Mickey, that Michelle's style is overheated and not supportive of clear understanding. IMHO she needs some maturing as a "journalist".

A

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: NH Dave
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:44 AM

Of course there is nothing prohibiting the young soldier from visiting the chaplain of his faith and getting all the religious material he wants. Guard units DO deploy with chaplains of the major faiths, although Protestant religious services are always plain vanilla, regardless of the faith in which the chaplain delivering the service was ordained. Military units typically have chaplains of the Catholic and Protestant faiths, and may have a rabbi, if one shows an interest in being a chaplain.   

Additionally, unless the father specifically declares that the contents of the parcel are Christian religious materials and tracts, there is no reason for the PO to inspect the package, unless it gurgles when moved about - alcohol is prohibited from being mailed through the US Postal Service, regardless of its destination.

   Dave
Retired AF Senior NCO

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Mickey191
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:55 AM

Amos, what you say may be true, but that doesn't change the facts as stated. Does it? I enjoy reading her columns, and yes, perhaps on occasion she may get a bit emotional. On the whole though I think she's pretty damn good on addressing issues which other writers deem unimportant.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:09 PM

Those regulations specifically picking out "contrary to Islamic faith" don't appear to be meant to apply only to the Middle East so far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:23 PM

Oh I don't mind her emotions -- just that she blows the facts out of proportion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 02:27 PM

As NH Dave said, why would the US post office even know the books' subject? When you mail something, you specify 'toys', 'cookies', 'perishables', or 'books'. You don't say 'toys for a 3-year old', or 'chocolate chip cookies', 'cabbage' or 'Comic Books' or 'Cookbooks' or 'Religious Books'. Why would you?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 02:50 PM

Good old salt-of-the-earth Poughkeepsie, New York.

Ask Paul Robeson et. al. about the Poughkeepsie point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 03:28 PM

The restriction cited, E3, from page 33 of the postal bulletin also prohibits "nonauthorized political materials." I wonder what that means, and if it's related to restriction H1, which prohibits pork and pork products.

Page 33 of PB22097 merely lists the possible restrictions. To know which ones apply to a given piece of mail, you have to go back to the preceding 3-page list of APO numbers. These restictions also apply ONLY to mail sent under the FREE MAILING privilege to/from military personnel through the MILITARY APO sytem.

The items "prohibited" on this list are almost certainly there because the destination country has its own postal, or other, restrictions on such material. If you really want to send it, you can pay the postage and you won't be asked (in as much detail, at least) what's in the package; but you could get a recipient murdered by some radical in the destination country who takes local laws very seriously. If you send by some other method, the USPS certainly can tell you what restrictions the destination country applies, and international agreements do prohibit the USPS from sending anything that violates the law at the destination. But then you can lie about what's in your package if you want to subject the recipient to any associated risks.

John

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 03:41 PM

McGRath, I think if you backtrack from that page of the pdf file, you'll find specific countries listed for various APO addys to which that restriction would apply.

We send out a lot packages. I got short with Rog one day when he asked me what was in each of them. I told him they were domestic and just books, etc. to friends. Then I asked why he was being so persistent about content. He told me our local PO asks what is in every package these days, domestic or otherwise! I am sure it's all part of the so-called Patriot Act.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 03:47 PM

My brother used to work in Saudi Arabia, as a civilian teacher. Every package was opened by the censors.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 03:50 PM

McGrath, thanks for reminding us that Islamic countries also exist in the far East and in Africa. In many of them too, laws selectively support one particular faith.

The particular incident leading to this thread seems like an invention to me: "Bulk quantities of religious material contrary to the Islamic faith. Items for personal use...are permissible" seems to me to cover a father sending his daughter or son a bible and some additional material. Some overly zealous Christians misrepresent the facts.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 04:17 PM

What I said earlier about judgement calls: the postal clerk in the US may very well have interpreted the restriction to mean NO religious material.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 04:30 PM

Are we all sure this isn't one of those internet rumors ? Like needles on gas pumps and LSD sprayed on telephone keypads ? I'm dubious - call me Thomas.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Mickey191
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 05:08 PM

Greg F., I'm packing now--What's a good city? I don't live in Poughkeepsie - maybe I'm too close to it ?
The Journal is a Gannett Paper. I didn't get this ina flyer during Sunday services.

When you mention the great Paul Robeson, are you in fact referring to a boycott by the KKK of his appearance in the 40"s? I may be wrong--But I think that was Peekskill, N.Y. That is a little town south of here, and the townsfolk at the time, were painted with the bloody wide brush of bigotry. The KKK appeared in cars with non N.Y plates

What's your point anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 07:53 PM

This page (http://www.usps.com/supportingourtroops/mailingrestrictions.htm) says that only "bulk quantities of religious materials contrary to the Islamic faith" are prohibited; and that "items for the personal use of the addressee are permissible."

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Burke
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 07:53 PM

Mickey's article cites Postal Bulletin 22097, which is from March. That is now out of date.

I found this on another Page from May on Oversas Miliary Mail FAQ.

Note: Beginning with Postal Bulletin 22100, we have changed the following two restrictions listed on the Restrictions page following the table:

E2. Any matter depicting nude or seminude persons, pornographic or sexual items, or nonauthorized political materials is prohibited. Although religious materials contrary to the Islamic faith are prohibited in bulk quantities, items for the personal use of the addressee are permissible.

Here's a link to all the bulletins from 2003. 22100 which announced the change is dated April 17. The same text is in the most recent bulletin. I appears that the government did find the limitation overly restrictive.

I wanted to see what the article actually said, especially in terms of when the incident happened. I can't find it on the Poughkeepsie Journal web site.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Burke
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:02 PM

OK, I found a copy of the column through a Google Search. Here's one copy. It happened 5 months ago, right about the time the rules were changed. It does appear that some of the people the dad contacted for help should have done a better job.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:10 PM

Greg F. has no point.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:18 PM

Burke-I hope you're not putting forth that site as a reliable or unbiased source of news.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Burke
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:33 PM

Lurker, unless you're referring to my links to USPS, I'm linking to it so that other people can read the article that is the basis for this whole thread. I just gave the first one I actually looked at, it seems to have been picked up by many publications over the weekend. It's not a news article, it's an opinion piece. That's been clear for a long time in this thread. Anone who wants to know who else carried it, my Google search was: "michelle malkin" Lenoir.

The real catalyst for this article is that Malkin seems to have been reading (or at least skimming) a book called Persecution by David Limbaugh's.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:44 PM

According to a woman I met, whose son is serving in Iraq, all mail sent to our troops religious or secular, is sitting in warehouses.   The United States Government employs a private contractor to deliver the mail. They aren't doing the job, and letters, packages etc. are being warehoused, OR RETURNED TO THE LOVED ONES WHO SENT THEM! for the sakd of the company's bottom line.

We did something similar in the Civil War, and wound up with uniforms that fell apart in the rain. You'd think someone at the Pentagon would know that!

By the way, if you will read Katherine Briggs "British Folktales", you'll find the "Pack of Cards" set in the English Civil Wars.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: GUEST,Mickey191
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:53 PM

Michelle Malkin never mentioned in the column what her source material was. Limbaugh's book was not mentioned.
The footnote says she is a columnist for Creators Syndicate, Inc. Her column runs once a week.

I take exception to those who intimated I made this up from whole cloth.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:23 PM

Mickey191, I didn't take it that anyone suspected you of making it up, but that the source from which you quoted seemed less than credible.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 08:38 AM

What I suspected was either a gullibility factor, ie that Mickey191 really did believe the veracity of the article/source of information, or that Mickey191 was trying to push a "Christians are victims of Muslim domination" agenda. Or at the very least, that the US government/military was not allowing Christian reading materials to be sent to the troops. Which is utter bullshit, as any intelligent person knows.

The reason for the rule for not allowing bulk materials from being sent, is to keep the Christian missionaries (or US personnel from acting as such by distributing bulk Christian materials in the Middle East without formal permission) out. A Good Thing, under the current circumstances. An even better idea that the missionaries weren't able to do it during wartime. As others have pointed out, it is easy to see and figure out that the story was based on information that was only applicable during the conquering combat phase of the war in Iraq, and that once the conquering combat phase was over, the rules were changed back to what I'm guessing is the more usual rules for mail to Muslim countries.

As to the suggestion that people were intimating it was made up of whole cloth, the story does sound suspiciously like the stuff of urban legend to begin with. When you add the right wing distortion of the facts to the equation, it doesn't sound like anything but right wing fundie hand wringing and breast beating.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Law Banning Religous Mail
From: Willie-O
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 08:50 AM

Jesus! Who cares, already?
Ever encountered an uncooperative postal clerk in a very small town, inflating their own self-importance by restrictively interpreting a regulation from above? I have. Press-stopping news it is not.

Willie-O