BS: Methane Sinks Ships?

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:57 AM

The acronym story popped up in a local paper under the name of one Bob Ogley, who usually does local history and published books about the 1987 hurricane and Biggin Hill, among other things. I wrote to him, unaware of Snopes, but possessing an Anglo-Saxon dictionary, which gave "scite" as meaning what it means - the German connection predates the German use of z where English uses t. I never had a response.
Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:49 PM

This has often been the most plausible speculation for certain Bermuda triangle disapperences of ships. Maybe the gas might even disorient low flying pilots?

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:42 PM

I think "shit" is derived from the German "shize."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:11 PM

Don, if you look at Snopes.com, and search for S.H.I.T., you'll find an item, a claim that this word is from the initial letters of "Ship High in Transit".

And Snopes says:

False.

Examples:

[Collected on the Internet, 2002]

History in the making!!!!

Fabulous bit of historical knowledge: Ever wonder where the word shit comes from ... well here it is

Certain types of manure used to be transported (as everything was back then) by ship ... well in dry form it weighs a lot less, but once water (at sea) hit it, it not only became heavier, but the process of fermentation began again, and one of the by products is methane gas . . . and as the stuff was stored below decks in bundles you can see what could (and did) happen, methane began to build up below decks and the first time someone came below at night with a lantern . . . BOOOOM! Several ships were destroyed in this manner before it was discovered what was happening. After that the bundles of manure where always stamped with the term S.H.I.T on them which meant to the sailors to "Ship High In Transit". In other words high enough off the lower decks so that any water that came into the hold would not touch this volatile cargo and start the production of methane.

Bet you didn't know that one.

I won't give you their essay which blows this one out of the water. If you are interested, I suggest you go to Snopes.com, search for "S.H.I.T.", and read the highly interesting explanation.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:35 PM

""it is still possible that someone did actually make up an acronym to fit the word "shit".""

"Swansea Harbour Internal Transport"?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 03:17 PM

Thanks... I missed it first time around. Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:46 PM

Refreshing!

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM

refresh!

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: sapper82
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:38 AM

Sandy, the canaries usually passed out and often survived. Later cages for them actually contained oxygen bottles to revive them!

However, going back to the original posting, I remember reading a thriller novel (Modesty Blaise I think??) where the villain's ship was moored alongside a gas rig and was sunk when the heros blew the pipe carrying the gas from the sea bed and the bubbles caused a fatal loss of bouyancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:56 AM

Thanks Charley,
When I have time I'll read through it more thoroughly.

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:44 AM

Sandy-

Thanks for the additional information.

It's true that this thread is rather long but its turns between facts and fiction are most intriguing. And there is a fine song embedded in it that we may revive next weekend at a maritime festival.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:27 PM

This thread is too long to read in detail right now so I am sorry if this is repetitive.
Methane does not stink. It is totally odorless. That's why gas detectors are needed in coal mines. In earlier years canaries were taken into mines and when they died the miners got out quickly. What stinks is other gases sometimes found mixed in like hydrogen sulphide and sulpher dioxide. Methane constantly leaks from both land and seabed into the atmosphere, especially from coal deposits. It is said to be many times stronger as a greenhouse gas tha CO2.
In coal mining areas you can often watch bubbles rise in ponds and lakes, or if by the ocean, from docks on a calm day. When ponds freeze over in colder areas methane is sometimes trapped beneath the ice and sometimes by drilling a small hole a flare can be made by igniting the escaping gas. Scientists tell us that we can change global warming by reducing CO2 emissions. They offer no solution for natural methane emission which is far worse so I doubt that CO2 reduction by itself will do it!

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM

Here's an update on this issue that a friend send me with links:

On the topic of The Blow at Witches' Hole, I offer the following from realclimate.org:

1.      Hank Roberts - methane releases in the Arctic -

click here for article

"However, our recent study in the Laptev Sea and the East-Siberian Sea (LESS) showed that CH4 supersaturation of surface water reached up to 10,000 %, implying that strong air-to-sea fluxes must occur at times."

click here for article

"At around 110 degrees easterly longitude, when we where wrestling with drift ice in western Laptev Sea, we discovered two new areas where methane concentrations in both the water and in the air above clearly exceeded the normal methane concentration in Arctic. A few days later a new area in the eastern Laptev Sea was discovered at 133 easterly longitudes."

Click here for article

"Here we report a new method of measuring ebullition and use it to quantify methane emissions from two thaw lakes in North Siberia. We show that ebullition accounts for 95 per cent of methane emissions from these lakes, and that methane flux from thaw lakes in our study region may be five times higher than previously estimated."

With "ebullition" we add another word to our vocabulary. And I never thought of "The Blow" in terms of its effect on global climate.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 08:06 PM

Thanks, Huw, for this concise report.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: HuwG
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 01:22 PM

Re. this business of using the anchor as a emergency break. The following anecdote can be found at The Pacific Steam Navigation Co's website. It has by now become "trad" among seafarers' tales, and I wil reproduce it in full here.


"It is with regret and haste that I write this letter to you: regret that such a small misunderstanding could lead to the following circumstances and haste in order that you will receive this report before you form your own preconceived opinions from reports in the world press, for I am sure they will tend to over-dramatise the affair.

We had just picked up the pilot, and the apprentice had returned from changing the "G" flag (signifying that I needed a pilot) for the "H" flag (indicating that I had a pilot on board). It being his first trip, he was having difficulty in rolling up the "G" flag. I therefore proceeded to show him how to do so. Coming to the last part I told him to "let go." The lad, although willing, is not too bright, necessitating my need to repeat the order in a sharper tone.

At this moment the Chief Officer appeared from the chartroom having been plotting the vessel's progress and, thinking it was the anchors that were being referred to, repeated the order to "let go" to the Third Officer on the forecastle. The port anchor, having been cleared away but not walked out, was promptly let go. The effect of letting the anchor drop from the "pipe" while the vessel was proceeding at full harbour speed proved too much for the windlass brake, and the entire length of the port cable was pulled out "by the roots". I fear that the damage to the chain locker may be extensive. The braking effect of the port anchor naturally caused the vessel to shear in that direction, right towards the swing bridge that spans a tributary to the river up which we were proceeding.

The swing bridge operator showed great presence of mind by opening the bridge for my vessel. Unfortunately, he did not think to stop the vehicular traffic, the result being that the bridge partly opened and deposited a Volkswagen, two cyclists and a livestock truck onto the foredeck. My ship's company are at present rounding up the contents of the latter which, from the noise, I would say were pigs. In his efforts to stop the progress of the vessel the Third Officer dropped the starboard anchor, too late to be of practical use, for it fell on the swing bridge operator's control cabin.

After the port anchor was let go and the vessel started to sheer I gave a double ring "Full Astern" on the Engine Room telegraph and personally rang the Engine Room to order maximum astern revolutions. I was informed that the sea temperature was 53 degrees and asked if there was to be a film that night. My reply would not add constructively to this report.

Up to now I have confined my report to the activities at the forward end of the vessel. Down aft they were having their own problems. At the moment the port anchor was let go, the Second Officer was supervising the making fast of the after tug and was lowering the ship's towing spring down onto the tug. The sudden braking effect of the port anchor caused the tug to run in under the counter of my vessel, just at the moment when the propeller was answering my double ring for "Full Astern". The prompt action of the Second Officer in securing the inboard end of the towing spring delayed the sinking of the tug by some minutes, thereby allowing the safe abandoning of the vessel.

It is strange, but at the very same moment of letting go the port anchor there was a power cut ashore. The fact that we were passing over a "cable area" at that time might suggest that we may have touched something on the river bed. It is perhaps lucky that the high-power cables brought down by the foremast were not live, possibly being replaced by the underwater cable, but owing to the shore blackout it is impossible to say where the pylon fell.

It never fails to amaze me, the actions and behaviour of foreigners during moments of minor crisis. The pilot, for instance, is at this moment huddled in the corner of my day-cabin, alternately crooning to himself and crying after having consumed a bottle of gin in a time that is worthy of inclusion in the Guinness Book of Records. The tug Captain, on the other hand, reacted violently and had to be forcibly restrained by the Steward, who has him handcuffed in the ship's hospital, where he is telling me to do impossible things with my ship and my person.

I enclose the names, addresses and insurers of the drivers of the vehicles now on my foredeck, which the Third Officer collected after his somewhat hurried evacuation of the forecastle. These particulars will allow you to claim for the damage they did in way of No. 1 cargo hatch.

It is sad to think that had the apprentice realised there is no need to fly pilot flags after dark, none of this would have happened.

For weekly Accountability Report I will assign the casualty numbers on my next report."

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Helen
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 06:16 PM

It'd be interesting to know if any ships did explode, and also despite the linguistic pedigree cited here:

snopes.com - Urban legends: "Ship HIgh in Transit"

it is still possible that someone did actually make up an acronym to fit the word "shit".

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 05:54 PM

Refresh!

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 09:49 AM

Heely - the whole Store High In Transit is urban myth....

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Heely
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 11:50 PM

Thanks for the laughs, guys. Just checking out a rumor before I use it in a gig. Heely

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 11:35 PM

No, me is, er, I am, er, sum.

Isn't it more accurate to say methane STINKS ships?

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 09:51 PM

Hmmm, isn't the manure thing an urban myth - either saw it here on Mudcat, or on another British Folk List... sounds like one of those delightful tales spun by one of the clever Mudcat Wagsters!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 06:55 PM

No, Nigel is!

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 10:47 AM

Heely: don't worry, you're not last, Amos is!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 09:36 AM

We all hit End of Thread Syndrome once in a while, Heely. The great trhing is not to take it personal-like.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 09:18 AM

Helly-

Not to worry. Someone has to be the last poster on a thread and maybe it makes more sense to start a new and exciting one. This one appears to have run its course.

Of course there are lots of traditional sea shanties/chanties about shipping shit, mostly related to shipping guano (sea bird shit) from off-shore islands. Loading and unloading such cargo was said to have been one of the worst jobs in the world for those who needed to breath. Never heard of a ship actually exploding from ignited methane fumes, but if one did there probably wasn't much evidence left.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Heely
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 10:31 PM

OK. Why am I always the last thread? Doesn't anyone know about shipping manure on this site? YOu know. . . . S.H.I.T. . . . am I crazy or is this really a source of methane gas which is a potential new forecastle Chantey. "We sunk another one." "Time for a pumping chantey." . . Heely

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: GUEST,Heely
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 01:50 PM

Is it true what I heard about the word "shit"? It is rumored to be the letters written on manure packages that were shipped for fetilizer. It was dried and packaged, but as the ship took on bilge water it would get wet and begin producing methane gas. The first sailor below with a lantern would blow up the ship. So they marked the manure packages "Ship High In Transit". ??? Heely

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 08:15 PM

Well, gang, now I've done it, posted "The Blow at Witch's Hole" as a Lyr.Add above.

We're going to sing it at the Press Room this Saturday for the monthly Shanty Sing.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 10:01 AM

Dave-

Your accident could have been much worse. You could have been coming back with your tankard full, and been forced to try to finish it off while you were in the air.

One of my favorite aerodynamic exercises I ever witnessed on the waterfront was when my old friend Gary Clevidence was making his way down the float after a late night song party, guitar case in hand, in the pitchy black darkness, and stumbled over the tie-up rail along the edge of the float. Just before he disappeared under the surface, he reached out and placed his guitar case onto the float. We all cheered!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 08:24 AM

A few years back, I was bow lookout on a sailboat coming into Block Island's Great Salt Pond in a rain squall. We came around the jetty and I spotted the nun bouy [which had an distinctive reflective wrapping on its top] and shouted back to the captain: "Come to port! Either that's a nun bouy or the biggest damn bottle of Miller's I ever saw." We stuck in the mud but it was a rising tide, so we came off a couple hours later.

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 07:53 AM

Nigel, I also have memories of Sandford lock. I was coming downstream from Oxford and as it was a hot day, decided I could do with a pint from the pub there. I'd just missed a lock and was tied up on the wooden piling and beam style layby, so I grabbed my tankard and started walking along the beam to get my beer. I was facing downstream, so I didn't see a large vessel coming down much too fast. It swerved to miss the last moored boat and hit the far end of the beam with a huge crash. The resulting shockwave threw me off the beam into the water on the inshore side. As the water was shallow I got badly bruised and knocked about - but at least I didn't lose my tankard.

Sheila Finn, the current editor of Folk London has done the "Human Mooring Warp" trick in Molesey lock, but she ended up in the water !

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 04:10 PM

and just think - some poor teacher will see this thread on the forum listed as a reference in a Term Paper "Authentic Folk Songs of Maritime Disasters"

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 04:02 PM

I'ts been a gas!

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 04:01 PM

Larry and MMario-

Thanks for your appreciation and contribution!

Just think, lads, years from now some poor innocent will revive this thread and be inspired (and informed) by our brilliance.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 11:50 AM

So all ye young laddies, take a warning from me
Don't pass up potato pancakes when you sail on the sea
for the gas is uplifting when drowned you may be
store up that methain gas for the sake of boyancy...

The moral of the song?
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 09:02 AM

I like that one better

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 08:44 AM

Here's an alternative last verse to "The Blow at Witch's Hole":

I was the sole survivor, me messmates drowned that day,
The Coast Guard came a-racing up, and snatched me from the wave,
They snatched me from the wave, me lads, and saved me sorry skin,
Surely I'd have drowned as well, (yes, drowned as well!)
If I hadn't broken wind!

Considerably more tasteful IMHO,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 02:07 PM

Well, A-musing Witless One, we could always identify you as TRAD! You can run but know that your past proceeds you.

Meanwhile I'm sinking in shame with regard to my proposed last verse. I wish my name wasn't Charley Noble.

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: GUEST,witless muse...
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:42 AM

dammit charley! I really am emberassed about this...
tell you what - WHEN you have sung this publicly I will fess up.

tho' if you *must* know - you could always ask the joe-clones to identify me ( i give permission)

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:28 AM

Guest "Unwitting Muse"-

Some of us may actually sing "The Blow at Witch's Hole" publicly and it would be nice to credit my co-collaborator of this fine ballad. Anyone have a clue who he/she is?

My personal e-mail address is: [e-mail]

My lips are sealed, if required.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 01:12 AM

I thought 'loose lips' did that. (I can already see where this will go.)

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Naemanson
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 06:33 PM

Tiny bubbles
Are no threat to me,
Tiny Bubbles
That rise up behind me.
But big bubbles,
Rising from the sea,
Those big bubbles,
Scare the bejezus out of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 12:29 PM

This thread drift reminds me of boating on the Thames, my wife and I were pulling into Sandford Lock (travelling up-river) and I steered and controlled the engine while she stood ready with a mooring rope near the stern. As Sandford Lock has the greatest rise in level on the Thames she had to stretch to reach a bollard, and only just managed to reach one with a slight jump. Unfortunately I had yet to bring the boat to a full stop, and it slid gently from beneath her feet.
I wasn't quick enough to get a picture of her hanging against the lock wall, as the lock keeper grabbed her wrists and hauled her to the bank. Apparently this is a regular occurance, and people come from miles for the entertainment Sandford Lock provides.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 09:43 PM

Gareth-

Instructive!

Now there are also some inspiring verses from days of old that go a step further:

The last to speak was our second mate,
Whose courage was second to none –
"Takes more than lip to save a ship,
I'll show you how 'tis done!"...

Then hoasting the anchor upon his back,
He leapt into the main;
Through foam and spray he clove his way,
And sunk and rose again...

Through foam and spray, a league away,
The anchor stout he bore,
Till safe at last, he made it fast,
And warped the ship ashore!
Yes, he warped the ship ashore!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 01:56 PM

Oh I dont know Charly, my trot mooring on the Medway is equiped with a pickup loop, using an old inner tube as a shock absorber, and half inch chain as a "jesus" (="Jesus - hope this holds")

I am told that it is quite amusing to watch the hook go down, and yours truely scrambling forrad with boat hook to pick up the bow mooring, as the 20 footer slams back. - 2 knots to Zero in less than 20'

Mind you it makes single handing easier

My inspiration was the Fleet Air Arm.

There was a visiting boat on the trot ahead of me one Sunday PM - The look on his face as I came in was quite satisfying !!!

If any Nautical 'Catter wants a sketch of the design - please PM me with yor E-Mail address - Yes it works.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 09:34 PM

Dave-

There was always the occasional skipper who would toss you an anchor as he sped by the gas float, one of my early memories of manning the marina gas dock one summer.

Sigh, no more verses. And we'll never know who Guest "Unwitting Muse" is. What a pity! Any guesses?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 05:18 AM

The lack of non-nautical language reminds me of that old BBC radio series "The Navy Lark". When Lt Phillips brought HMS Troutbridge into dock, you'd get things like "Left Hand down a bit, mind the bonnet, where's the brake ?, lower the under carriage - no that's in a plane isn't it ?". Each of these orders being repeated by CPO Pertwee. There would then be a series of tremendous crashes, rending and scraping noises followed by the sound of things dropping, then silence. The captain would then say something like "Mr Phillips, when you moor Troutbridge two hundred yards inland of the dockside, I think we can do without the customary whoa she bumps !".

Mind you I was once in a Thames lock and lady brought a very large hire-craft in at a silly speed. "Where are the brakes ?" she called to her husband on the lockside. We were all shouting at her to go "hard astern" - "Oh no", she said, "When I took my driving test, the instructor told me never to engage reverse gear until I'd come to a standstill". Thank god it was Romney Lock - one of the longest on the upper Thames.

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 04:17 PM

Rapaire-

Just goes to prove that reality is far more bizarre than even our warped imagination!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 02:57 PM

Charley, it was in every weekly paper from Lagrange clear down to Louisiana on the Missouri side and from Pontoosak to Hull on the Illinois side.

If you doubt me, I'll even tell you can go. To see the barges, I mean; I don't think that they've moved them.

Subject: RE: BS: Methane Sinks Ships?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 02:28 PM

Back to the musical portion of this thread, a concluding verse to our ditty:

I was the sole survivor, me crewmates drown that day,
The Coast Guard came a-racing up, and snatched me from the wave,
They snatched me from the wave, me lads, which gave me quite a start,
And I surely would have gone down as well, (yes, gone down as well!)
If I didn't give a fart!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble