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BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?

GUEST,M'Grath of Altcar 05 Nov 03 - 12:31 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Nov 03 - 12:54 PM
Ringer 05 Nov 03 - 01:17 PM
open mike 05 Nov 03 - 01:25 PM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 05 Nov 03 - 01:29 PM
Raedwulf 05 Nov 03 - 06:24 PM
Gareth 05 Nov 03 - 06:58 PM
Alba 05 Nov 03 - 07:20 PM
kendall 05 Nov 03 - 07:25 PM
Alaska Mike 05 Nov 03 - 07:41 PM
Ebbie 05 Nov 03 - 09:06 PM
Sorcha 05 Nov 03 - 11:43 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 Nov 03 - 12:25 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 03 - 02:23 AM
Ringer 06 Nov 03 - 05:29 AM
mooman 06 Nov 03 - 05:59 AM
AggieD 06 Nov 03 - 06:51 AM
A Wandering Minstrel 06 Nov 03 - 08:19 AM
Beverley Barton 06 Nov 03 - 08:21 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 03 - 09:17 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 03 - 09:33 AM
Ringer 06 Nov 03 - 09:45 AM
AggieD 06 Nov 03 - 10:44 AM
kendall 06 Nov 03 - 11:01 AM
mooman 06 Nov 03 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,jenup 06 Nov 03 - 02:06 PM
Don Firth 06 Nov 03 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Guestspot 06 Nov 03 - 03:16 PM
open mike 06 Nov 03 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,rog 07 Nov 03 - 12:52 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 Nov 03 - 01:11 PM
Alaska Mike 07 Nov 03 - 02:27 PM
AggieD 08 Nov 03 - 08:30 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 03 - 12:23 PM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 03 - 12:41 PM
kendall 08 Nov 03 - 04:15 PM
kendall 08 Nov 03 - 04:18 PM
harlowpoet 09 Nov 03 - 03:58 AM
Barry Finn 09 Nov 03 - 08:45 AM
AggieD 09 Nov 03 - 10:17 AM
Alaska Mike 09 Nov 03 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Spot 09 Nov 03 - 03:34 PM
Nigel Parsons 09 Nov 03 - 08:16 PM
Alaska Mike 10 Nov 03 - 10:00 AM
AggieD 10 Nov 03 - 12:45 PM
Barry Finn 10 Nov 03 - 04:52 PM
Beardy 11 Nov 03 - 07:07 AM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 11 Nov 03 - 02:22 PM

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Subject: BS: Hunting Declaration - Any catters signed?
From: GUEST,M'Grath of Altcar
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 12:31 PM

Any catters signed the hunting declaration?

I did. At Rydal on Friday. We sang John Peel of course, and saw the Coniston hounds set off. Then I went out with The Bleasdale Beagles from a location near Tebay. We drew a blank but it was a great day!
The six fell packs have a phenomenal singing tradition. The quality of the singing is awesome and yet the whole business is, by unfortunate necessity, quite separate to the folk club culture. Merrie neets, singing and song writing competitions are a regular and important part of fell pack life and are even printed on the meet lists!
http://www.blencathrafoxhounds.com/index.htm

Tally Ho

M'Grath of Altcar


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 12:54 PM

Can someone provide a translation of this in American English?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 01:17 PM

Probably not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: open mike
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 01:25 PM

i would sing for the fox: run away , run away!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 01:29 PM

No and never will


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 06:24 PM

Which declaration? Ban it? Yes, I would. But I don't think that's what you meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 06:58 PM

Now please remember that this is a two sided contest.

If the hunters wish to tear a foc to bits, fine I will support this, as long as they respect my right to sabotage a hunt by stringing wire explosives etc. where it will damage the hunters.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Alba
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 07:20 PM

Yes Im with you there Gareth.
Sign a petition to support a bunch of losers that take part in a Barbaric, Inhumane blood sport..oh yeah were is my pen and I know just what to do with it!
And yes they may have wrote songs about it a 100 years ago but it was a sick pastime then and it still is. Oh and by the way Guest unless you were a privileged member of the gentry you wouldn't have been invited to hunt back then by John Peel in his grey coat maybe now it only requires a taste for violence against an innocent animal to join in.. When they took the "Hunt" to Ireland with them back in the 1800's and couldn't find Foxes they chased young girls instead....ah yes a sport with a "proud" history... PLEASE
Join the 21 century and get a petition to ban this disgusting waste of a Fox's life. Ill sign that, hell Ill even write a song about it and you all can sing that!
Tally Ho..yeah right.
Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 07:25 PM

Here in Maine we have a petition being circulated to ban hunting bears with dogs, bait and traps. I signed it. I would also like to see bear hunting banned altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 07:41 PM

After the citizens of Alaska voted to outlaw "Fly-land-shoot" type wolf hunts here, the governor's appointed game board recently approved shooting from the air. So now they will be hunting wolves from helicopters. How sporting!!! They don't even have to land. We are disgusted by it, but the Republicans are in power and there's not a thing we can do about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 09:06 PM

Yeh, Alaska Mike, a vote counts for a whole lot, doesn't it! All it takes is a different government and it's no longer operative.

They project, by the way, that they'll 'eliminate' about 170 wolves this next year.

Made me think of this today when I read in the news of how many people deaths are caused each year by hitting deer. In Alaska, we'd have the answer: "Nuke 'em." Yessirree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 11:43 PM

I was asked today what the Brits acually do with a fox after they catch it.....had to admit I didn't know.....so, what do they do with the fox???? (PS, I believe in hunting, it is a Tool for Wildlife Management, but not from roads, helicopters, planes, etc. And, BTW, we do eat what we kill---We is not me...I can butcher and eat, but not actually kill.....)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 12:25 AM

    Merrie neets, singing and song writing competitions are a regular and important part of fell pack life and are even printed on the meet lists!


What does this mean? What is all of the apparent singing doing as part of a fox hunting club? Surely it isn't centered exclusively on that one song, "John Peel?" What is a "fell pack"--is it a group of dogs, a group of people who own dogs, what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 02:23 AM

"Keilder Hunt" is another very old border hunting song although from the other side - Northumberland, I think. A Fell Pack is a pack of dogs that hunt over fell side country i.e. very hilly, unsuitable for horses, the hunters follow on foot - you may not have to be gentry, but you do need to be fit.

Sorcha is perfectly correct - "...hunting, it is a Tool for Wildlife Management" If you do not do employ it the greater animal population suffers including the species subject to the hunt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Ringer
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 05:29 AM

I haven't signed, M'Grath. I support your efforts (more particularly, I strongly oppose those who would ban another's innocent past-time), but I have never yet followed hounds and I don't propose to start now just to make a point.

I worry a bit about these posters who don't seem to see any difference between humans and animals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: mooman
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 05:59 AM

The ripping apart of wild animals for human enjoyment can in no way IMHO be euphemized as "a tool for wildlife management" nor can I personally see it as an "innocent pastime".

A human is actually an animal. Albeit purportedly one with a more advanced brain.

As you may guess, I won't be signing the declaration.

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: AggieD
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 06:51 AM

As I live in the countryside & often hear the foxes barking just behind my house, I would like to add that all those who insist that they kill the fox because they do so much damage to chickens, lambs etc. it is a load of rubbish. I recently asked my neighbour, who keeps a small herd of sheep if they had ever had any lambs taken, & he told me that he has never had a single lamb go to the fox. He insinuated that it is bad management & lazy farming if tiny lambs are ever left in a situation where they may fall prey to foxes. As for chickens, although I have never kept them, many of my neighbours do or have done in the past, & all of them said that if they are put into secure runs at night, then a fox has no way of taking them. Again they put it down to laziness if anyone has them taken. In fact one ex-neighbour who didn't have the heart to kill her old chickens would leave them out at night for the fox to take & they never took any others.

To anyone who has never seen the way they cut off the brush & someone parades around with it, it is sickening & barbaric, although those 'hunters' would probably say that they do nothing of the sort.

If the hunt ever comes round I will again be out there with licorice to scatter around, which is a better deterent than explosive wire, which would hurt the horses. The licorice sends the hounds barmy with the smell & completely puts them off the trail. If you want to sabotage a hunt, this is a much better way, or nip to the butchers & lay a trail of smelly meat, the higher the better!!

I also have no problem with culls if the normal predatory equilibrium has broken down, which is often due to man's intervention.
These morons that hunt for blood lust will always find some kind of justification for their 'Sport'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 08:19 AM

Sorcha

They don't do anything with it There's usually nothing much left after the dogs have finished tearing it apart. Sometimes they cut off the tail from the remains and add it to a display.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Beverley Barton
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 08:21 AM

< font color = red > to paraphrase john wayne _"the only good animal is a cooked one" < /font >


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 09:17 AM

Mooman:
As you live in Belgium signing such a declaration is immaterial, I live in both Norway and the UK, I'd have no objection to signing it.

AggieD:
Pity your kind-hearted neighbour hasn't the heart to wring the necks of her old hens, they'd suffer a much quicker and less painful death than at the hands of the foxes she leaves them for.

Wandering Minstrel:
So all the masks must have been bought from fox poisoners, seeing as how the fox is always torn to pieces, which of course they are not.

So lets consider the alternative proposed "humane" methods of controlling the fox population:
- Poisoning, totally indiscriminate, affecting all manner of wild life and domestic pets, so not really to be recommended lightly.
- Trapping death by a snare is a damn sight more cruel than hunting.
- Shooting very complicated, particularly with the gun laws as they exist in the UK today, also very restricted in terms of application, lots of things have to be taken into consideration before you can pull the trigger.
- Gassing, they already do this for Badgers sometimes with dire consequences for populations, but then when this method is used, control is not the objective, complete erradication is.
- Motor Vehicle, road kill, by far the most efficient, provided the drivers who hit the animal have the guts to stop and make sure it is dead, very few do.

By the way would there be a season for such activies or would they proceed on an all-year round basis? The Huntsman at least lets the fox breed. Looking at the above from the foxes perspective - I'd go for signing the declaration any day compared to the alternatives myself, my mate or her cubs would have to face.

I particularly do not like poisoning, while still at school a pal of mine and myself found a vixen who had been poisoned, her cubs had come out in search of her. When we found them one of the cubs was just barely alive, my pal who lived on a farm brought it up as a pet - for ages the fox thought it was a sheep dog. The only thing he always had to be very careful about was making sure he was shut up securely at night. Lived to a ripe old age and died in its sleep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 09:33 AM

Mooman:
As you live in Belgium signing such a declaration is immaterial, I live in both Norway and the UK, I'd have no objection to signing it.

AggieD:
Pity your kind-hearted neighbour hasn't the heart to wring the necks of her old hens, they'd suffer a much quicker and less painful death than at the hands of the foxes she leaves them for.

Wandering Minstrel:
So all the masks must have been bought from fox poisoners, seeing as how the fox is always torn to pieces, which of course they are not.

So lets consider the alternative proposed "humane" methods of controlling the fox population:
- Poisoning;
Totally indiscriminate, affecting all manner of wild life and domestic pets, so not really to be recommended lightly.
- Trapping;
Death by a snare is a damn sight more cruel than hunting.
- Shooting;
Very complicated, particularly with the gun laws as they exist in the UK today, also very restricted in terms of application, lots of things have to be taken into consideration before you can pull the trigger.
- Gassing;
They already do this for Badgers sometimes with dire consequences for populations, but then when this method is used, control is not the objective, complete erradication is.
- Motor Vehicle;
Road kill, by far the most efficient, provided the drivers who hit the animal have the guts to stop and make sure it is dead, very few do.

By the way would there be a season for such activies or would they proceed on an all-year round basis? The Huntsman at least lets the fox breed. Looking at the above from the foxes perspective - I'd go for signing the declaration any day compared to the alternatives myself, my mate or her cubs would have to face.

I particularly do not like poisoning, while still at school a pal of mine and myself found a vixen who had been poisoned, her cubs had come out in search of her. When we found them one of the cubs was just barely alive, my pal who lived on a farm brought it up as a pet - for ages the fox thought it was a sheep dog. The only thing he always had to be very careful about was making sure he was shut up securely at night. Lived to a ripe old age and died in its sleep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Ringer
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 09:45 AM

I also wonder about those who question the intelligence ("morons", AggieD, above) of people who participate in pastimes they don't approve of.

And "cowards" (not above, I'm just thinking of protesters' banners in the past) is a funny word to use beside a picture of a horseman jumping a tall hedge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: AggieD
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 10:44 AM

I stick by my labelling of hunters as morons, as they do not have any reason to hunt foxes other than self gratification, which to my mind is totally moronic in the sense that they give no thought to anything other than themselves.

And why the need to kill foxes at all? Ask our local farmer & he would quite happily have more foxes to kill off the rabbits that eat his crops, which is far more natural than trying to shoot them, as he does. The fox takes the rabbit for food, not to simply watch dogs tear a creature to bits. Perhaps if the hunstman ran about on foot & tried to kill the fox, without help of dog or horse, it might be a more balanced chase & one I would personally love to watch.

If any horesman or woman needs the thrill of jumping, then fine, I have no problem with that, but to simply call them brave for jumping?Well......


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 11:01 AM

Anyone who knows anything about wildlife knows that the main diet of the Coyote is MICE.
The main diet of the wolf is sick and old deer, elk etc. It's nature's way. Every time man meddles in the balance of nature, we throw it all out of balance. So, the more we meddle, the more we have to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: mooman
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 12:28 PM

True enough Guest...but as I lived in the UK for 39 years before moving to Belgium (and might well move back someday), and am trained as and still work as a professional biologist...not to mention being a sentient being myself (so it is sometimes rumoured at least...), I believe I still have the right to an opinion on the subject ...which is most definitely material.

Foxhunting kills a mere estimated 3% of the UK fox population so this "control of population" argument is completely fallacious as is the assumption that the fox population actually requires control by humans.

I stand by my view that foxhunting, harecoursing and badger-baiting are cruel and entirely unjustifiable activities (whether I still live in the UK or not).

Peace and goodwill

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: GUEST,jenup
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 02:06 PM

I was caught up in a hunt whilst walking in the Lake District. It was one of the most horrifying experiences of my life. I came home and joined The League Against Cruel Sports-www.league.uk.com [I wish I could work out how to make blue clicky links!]

I found out a lot more about the horrifically cruel practices these people perpetrate in the name of sport. In my eyes they are as perverted as people who are cruel to children. If they really believed hunting with dogs was 'sport', they would be happy to continue follwing the the hounds using scents [drag trails] rather than pursuing living mammals.

Thank for the info about licquorice. Is this the liquorice sweets[like the black ones in Licquorice Allsorts]or something unsweetened that you get from a health food shop? I am moving to the Lake District soon and shall certainly need some.

Maybe these huntsmen singers would like to learn Jez Lowe's 'The Big Fear'. A poignant song about badger baiting. Check it out if you don't know it. It's on his 2002 cd 'Honesty Box' - very good.

All of you who are against causing terror and cruelty, stand firm - Keep the Faith


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 02:43 PM

There's been a problem here in Western Washington of late, especially out on the Olympic Peninsula, of "bearbaiting." The term normally refers to setting dogs on a chained bear (this is sport?), but the kind of bearbaiting that has reared its head here is actually leaving bait (usually garbage) at a particular location and then hiding in a blind with your high-powered, scope-sighted rifle and waiting for the bears to appear. Baiting animals in this manner or hunting them with dogs is illegal in this state, but whoever is pulling this little "bearbaiting" stunt has turned it into a substantial business with international overtones. Some people have come from Europe and Asia to take part in these little exercises in sportsmanship—sitting on their butts and waiting for a bear to show up for a bit of take-out. This is hunting?

There are just not enough Rangers out there to handle this problem, but a hopeful sign is that honest hunters are really ticked off about this. They are the ones who have been reporting these deposits of bear-luring garbage and nearby blinds when they find them, and bringing the matter to the attention of the news media.

There's some guy out on the Olympic Peninsula who runs a sports shop who is all in favor of this (screw the law), and supplies the poachers. In a television news interview, he said he favored it in spite of the law because "maybe these do-gooders have never had bears coming in and killing their cattle and sheep!" One problem with this argument: who the hell is grazing cattle and sheep on the Olympic Peninsula? Indigenous mountain goats up in (where else?) the mountains, yeah. But cattle? Last time I was out thataway, I say a lot of mountains and trees, but no cattle or sheep.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: GUEST,Guestspot
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 03:16 PM

Hey McGrath of Altcar.... Havent signed up yet but used to live in Coniston when George Ridley was Huntsman... remember him..? Had some good times but canna get ower t'fell t'same nowadays. Walked mesel to oblivion loadsa times...Remeber Chris Ogilvie from Ambleside - used to work with him..not seen him fer ages...
Regards to all Spot


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: open mike
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 05:07 PM

the act of leaving chickens unprotected for carnivores to devour
is just getting them in the habit of coming there to eat chicken..
this practiuce would seem to be asking for trouble for the person
who does it and any of their neighbors who might keep livestock.

The worst offenders in my neighborhood {where there ARE bears,
mt. lions, opossums, raccoons, ring tailed cats, foxes, bobcats,
skunks (striped and spotted) and various air borne predators (raptors))
but the most destructive are packs of domestic dogs...and feral ones.

they do not kill to eat but they commit murder for the "fun" of it.

I have neighbors who have lost goats, and chickens to dogs--
mass murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: GUEST,rog
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 12:52 PM

On holiday in the Lake District this year I was talking to one of the locals who kept a small number of chickens. The week before he had lost all of them to a fox. This was his own fault he said, as he had forgotten to secure the shed where he kept his chickens overnight. He told me that in winter he goes out some nights to shoot foxes that are close to the village. That seemed fair enough to me. I don't hold with fox hunting though. Control by shooting is one thing, a 'sport' where a wild animal is persued for fun is quite another.
I am fairly sure that the guy told me that he just left the corpses of the chickens that the fox had killed. I believe he said that a fox will kill all the chickens (not just one to eat) and return for them another night. Is this true? Or was he just having me on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 01:11 PM

rog, that makes sense. Since foxes don't think forward they don't know what is going on in the human part of the chicken-as-meat equation. They don't perceive that humans are likely to come along and "clean up" the dead chickens, taking that meat out of reach. Perhaps NOVA or Nature or one of the other publicly broadcasted nature programs will include this as a study (they've already done domestic dogs and domestic cats, including looking at them in feral states). It's only fair to examine just what might be going on in behavior that to humans is interpreted as wanton killing.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 02:27 PM

Hey Don Firth, we know all about Bear baiting here in Alaska. It is considered legal and sporting for guides to maintain a garbage dump in the woods in order to attract bears to a regular feeding station. Then the "sport" hunting guide advertises in hunting magazines all over the world "guaranteeing" a bear kill if you hire him to lead your hunt. He then takes you out to the shelter built up in the tree above the garbage pile and waits for the next hungry bear to come in for a snack. I hear some of these guys charge thousands of dollars to the big game hunter to compensate themselves for all the work they put in year round to train bears to come to the garbage pile. I repeat--- THIS IS LEGAL IN ALASKA. Sick, but legal.

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: AggieD
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 08:30 AM

GUESTjenup: any kind of licorice will do, but the stronger the smell the better, & the basic sort is easier to drop around the coutryside without being so easily spotted. Bright yellow & pink tend to stand out a bit. If you have a bit of room in your frezzer, get some skanky meat from your local butcher & before you go out, defrost & throw that around too.

And yes it has been proven that foxes will decimate a chicken run if they can get into it. They regard it as a kind of 'Foxy McChic', easy, instant food there for the taking. There was a tv documentary here a while ago, where they set up an accessible chicken run, & filmed a female fox, which killed every chicken in one go & then proceeded to bury them one by one, as she wasn't disturbed & left to do what came naturally, so that she could come along later & dig them up for food. In fact no different that a squirrel hiding it's nuts!

If we humans keep domesticated animals, we have to take the responsibilty for them & keep them safe from wild predators that do not have a clue about domestication. Again it is we humans who think that we are always right, & interfering with nature causes problems.

As for the neighbour who left her old hens out, I didn't say that I agreed with the practice. Far better to wring it's neck for a more humane end if she didn't want it to die a natural death.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOX, no more...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 12:23 PM

Just to bring music back in, this thread has moved me to write. (even if I appear to be in the minority view)

THE FOX – no more hunted
(Nigel Parsons)(November '03)

The fox went out on a chilly night
Gave thanks to the moon for its gracious light,
And that cruel men had lost the right
To hunt his family down-o down-o down-o
Cruel men had lost the right
To hunt his family down-o

He came at last to a chicken farm
Where the inmates he could cause alarm
He made his way, both cool and calm
Now men could do him no harm-o harm-o harm-o
He made his way, both cool and calm
Now men could do him no harm-o

Fox dug his way in the chicken run,
Thought that he would have some fun
Heard a bang from the farmer's gun,
And slunk away from the town-o town-o town-o
Heard a bang from the farmer's gun,
And slunk away from the town-o

Fox fed at last on a chickens egg,
Limped along on a broken leg
To the moon above he'd have to beg
That a huntsman might put him down-o down-o down-o
To the moon above he'd have to beg
That a huntsman might put him down-o

Fox died at length in his hidden earth,
Of food for days there'd been a dearth
To the moon above, he cursed his birth
And his blood-matted fur was all brown-o brown-o brown-o
To the moon above, he cursed his birth
And his blood-matted fur was all brown-o


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 12:41 PM

Correction! that one shouldn't have been "Lyr Add" as it's not trad, merely a parody.
I'll offer it to Aine for the songbook

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 04:15 PM

Dave Mallett's song "You say the battle is over" formerly, The Song for the animals.He wrote it just after the Viet Nam war, and on his mind was the Canadian seal hunt where they club the babies to death for their white fur. I think I posted the whole song a while back.

...so here's to the world of the wild ones
Here's to the ones that must fall,
Forgive us and bless us we know what we do,
Wer're victims of blindness that's all,
And mothers your babies keep grand ladies warm
As they stand on verandas at dusk,
It's too bad we killed them before they could swim
But you know that the whole world was given to us.

And you say the battle is over you say the war is all done
Go tell it to those with the wind in their nose
Who run from the sound of the gun,
And write it on the sides of the great whaling ships
Or on the ice floe where concience is lost
With the wild in their eye it is they who must die,
And it's we who must measure the cost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 04:18 PM

I sang this at a bluegrass festival, and afterwards, a man came to me in tears. He said "That is the ,most powerful song I ever heard, and I'm going home and sell my gun." Dave and I made a difference that day.
I saw the man a few months later, and he said he had indeed sold his gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: harlowpoet
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 03:58 AM

No I haven't signed. Hunting with dogs will be banned in England and Wales soon, and all the people who sing about hunting can sing about as it as much as they like cos they won't be doing it. And most of us wil be celebrating


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 08:45 AM

Around here hunting is taken very seriously, you kill it you eat it. Years ago I had a quite a few people working for me that hunted (mostly deer), one kill would last them until the next season came around. The Mic Mack's that worked with me are very sensitive about how, what & why they hunted. One of them followed the blood trail of an Elk he shot. A fatal wound but the trail went on many miles. It was winter, he was alone, it took him 3 days to drag the Elk home. To them there is no leaving a wounded animal that they shot, it's food for them. If any of the guys had more than they could freeze they'd bring the rest to work & pass out the extra. If some one were to tell them about a fox hunt they could not comprehend it & consider the hunter to be a vile person irresponsible sub human who should not be allowed into the woods. They were the most respectable hunters I've ever known. They had a battle with the Canadian provincial police over their fishing rights. Seems that others had fished out the salmon in their area by net hauling from boats. One haul would equal the total season's catch for my friends (this was like a family holiday for them). The government decided that they're allowed catch would be lessened while the net haulers catch should be greater & more of their area should be opened up to others. They would sign no agreement & while the kids were at school the provincial police blocked of the bridge, the only access for the kids to return home. A gun battle followed when the police shot at one of the kids who tried to cross from the under side of the bridge & a race to get the kid followed with the father getting to his kid first. Some of the boats the police commandeered from the locals were hit & sunk. To me it seems that many who hunt for sport or profit with a total disregard for nature would only have to make a small leap to using humans as the next sport. Are we the only species that will for pleasure or profit? If we are then we are no better than rats. Are we the only species that contribute nothing to nature, are we the only ones who upset the balance of nature. Hunting buffalo, whales, cougers, condors, etc, etc, etc at one time a sport. We have eliminated or nearly eliminated an incredible number of species in the past couple hundred years in the name of sport & profit. IMHO if you hunt & it's not for food, you are poaching & like many places that are watching their wild life disappear due to poaching, should be put out as food for those that we're killing off weather it's from poaching, squeezing out their habitat, poisoning the land, sea & sky or by other methods. My mother lives on Cape Cod, a place named for the abundance of cod that was once dwelled there. Today you'd be hard pressed to see never mind catch the smallest of what's left. As humans we never know where or when to stop. We are heading to a point of no return & once there there's no reviving nature, no let's limit now, mother nature will not respond. Good by all.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: AggieD
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 10:17 AM

Wow Barry, well put!

I have no problem at all with those people who hunt & fish for their food, it is the nature of all creatures on this earth to find food in whatever way comes naturally to them, but as you say to hunt for 'sport' & decimate anything to the point of extinction is totally unnecessary & wrong. Unfortunately it is akin to stopping the total destruction of the S American rain forests; while man is greedy & thoughtless, there will always be a market for these people to destroy the world.

How on earth do we convince them to stop, without them coming back & saying that if they are stopped then their 'human rights' are being taken away from them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 12:03 PM

Thanks Barry, your post was well said and true. Alaska is one of those places where the wolf and the grizzly and, yes even the cod are still plentiful. However, if something can't be done to stop the sport and profit hunters we too will be writing songs about what once was instead of what still is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: GUEST,Spot
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 03:34 PM

You seem to have gone quiet McGrath of Altcar.... any thing to say re differing opinions??
                      Regards to all Spot


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 08:16 PM

Barry has already been cheered for his comments, and I find that they are reasonable, and well thought out.
However, they do not really apply to the UK question on fox hunting.
It is not a case of "watching their wild life disappear due to poaching". Fox hunting is no more than a reasonable 'cull'.
It is certainly not a case of 'Hunting for profit', it is an expensive hobby (stabling, tack, etc.,) Angling is certainly cheaper, and more widely available. But, as it is a sport followed by the 'working class' it is not being interfered with (I know there are arguments that fish don't feel pain, but they're dubious). Fox hunting is an indulgence of those who can afford to hunt, and thus a valid target for a left-wing government.
The government required a study on hunting, and it was headed by Lord Burns. They have since studiously ignored the response to their study
Some of the arguments can be seen Here

I must add that I have never hunted, nor intend to. But I've read the arguments, and see nothing (other than class envy) which would ban fox hunting while allowing fishing to continue.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 10:00 AM

The fish I catch, Nigel, are eaten at my family's dinner table. There are more humane ways of "culling" predators than allowing a pack of dogs to chase them all over the countryside before ripping them apart for the amusement of the well heeled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: AggieD
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 12:45 PM

I'm afraid you are wrong on both counts Nigel Parsons.

Although at one time those who hunted fox etc. were the bored 'upper classes' nowadays many of those who hunt are 'working class'. I know of several ordinary people who have a reasonable horse, & in the past have turned out when the hunt has been in these parts.

As for fishing, while it is thought to be a working man's sport as much as one for the upper classes, many people fish very badly these days. My husband was a fisherman in his youth & was taught a lot of things which modern day fishermen do not bother with & he has been told are old-fashioned. As boaters we see no end of dead fish floating in the canals, & although no doubt some is down to the pollution of careless boaters etc., much is due to the bad way in which the fishermen handle their catch. If a fisherman, for instance does not remove a hook properly, it will tear the fish's mouth badly & the creature will be unable to feed. We have watched most fishermen handle the fish without anything on their hands, which can cause disease to the scales, etc. There is also a lot of damage caused to other wildlife, such as swans & ducks from the careless discarding of lines, hooks etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 04:52 PM

As to "culling", Mother Nature has a foolproof system that's been in place long before we humans came to be & there's no room for improvement (if it ain't broke don't fix it). I believe we may be the next species Mother Nature's eyeballing for "culling". She may even figure it's in her best interest & self-preservation for us to be the most recent addition to the endangered list. It looks that it may, in the end, come down to a head on collision & if we win we lose & if she wins we lose, I guess if we don't listen up soon & try to get it right (we're running out of second choices/chances) it'll be the last of the 'no win situations'.


Hi Mike, if the Brush gets his grubby little mits on the Bush & has his way (& it's scary to see how close he's come) it'll be another case of going from wilderness to waste. And us non-indigenous new comers acting like we're better than those that are killing off the rain forests & pretending that the savage, first nation, ignorant inhabitants can't do /get anything right. We could sure learn a lot by taking some notes of how these savages have been manage ring to get it right by being so wrong for so many centuries.   


As an aside, during the great depression foxhunts were taking place just outside the Boston area. A high school history teacher, because of his riding skills he was hired as an instructor & trainer. I'd lived in Boston all my life & never heard anything about this. He told me that the only people that had known were those that got compensated for the property damage sustained by the rider's. Why would anyone want to keep something so innocent as a fox hunt such a guarded secret?

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Beardy
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 07:07 AM

Fro clarification (in case I missed it while reading all of the above) When signing this hunting declaration pepople are declaring their support FOR hunting. If anti-hunting do NOT sign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hunting Declaration - Anyone signed?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 02:22 PM

I am not a great animal lover, however what I find offencive is these so called hunters turing around and saying that they are animal lovers.
A funny way to love an animal by allowing the hounds to tear it to bits and then after two years killing the hounds.

and that's their version of animal love.

not mine.

Tom


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