musical niche question

Subject: musical niche question
From: GUEST,nicheless
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 03:03 PM

Of late, I've found myself in any number of musical situations but I am beginning to suspect that I have no real musical niche. Most recently I was invited to attend a friend's birthday party. It was largely populated by older musical cohorts that were, as far as I could tell, all of the same sort of musical inclination, rock and roll dance band types. They all seemed to have electric guitars and/or basses or played drums and sang past versions of old R&B, Blues or R&R hits but all within that narrow electric dance/bar band kind of formula. Some of these guys were even the founding fathers of certain genres of early rock. I seemed to be the odd guy. I can do very little of that stuff and don't really consider myself as having fallen into that form in any hard-core fashion. Similarly, I was asked to join in at a more strictly categorized "blues" gathering and again I found that my non-electric leanings left me on the fringe. Most of what was being represented was electric blues with loud screaming guitar solos, harmonica solos, drum solos, sax solos, you know the type. I don't exactly fit into all that either but have explored and enjoy acoustic blues. My attempts to fit within the bluegrass/fiddle tune realm have left me just as isolated. It seems that if you can't wail some kind of gut-wrenching solo at blazing break-neck speed on your instrument of choice or pierce the heavens with your vocals you might just as well pack your bags and go because that seems to be all that they really crave. Their motto seems to be: If you play too slow, you got to go.

So to summarize, I don't have lightning speed or mind bending technical skill vocally or instrumentally. I tend to shy away from gigs with excessive volume. I prefer the acoustic realm and concert situations to performing in bars or restaurants where the focus of attention can easily be divided by other forms of entertainment offered by such establishments like muzak, juke boxes, televisions, dart boards, pool tables, pin ball and gambling machines or clinking dishes, screeching espresso machines, annoying under paid wait persons, micromanaging managerial staff. To top it off, I have a song bag that is not dominated by any particular genre and both my instrumentation and stylistic approach to playing limits me from most standard categories. Rockers think I'm too folky. Folkies think I'm too rockish. Bluesers think I'm too acoustic. Bluegrassers are certain I ain't one of them with. I play too slow for fiddlers, most bluegrassers and swing players and possess no great solo chops to be desired by any of the above. I'm too new for the old timey folks and too old timey for the pop scene. I'm not traditional enough for the preservationists. I don't sing enough of my own stuff for the songwritter gigs and sing too much of my own stuff to get other gigs. Jug banders say my instrumentation is wrong. (Go figure, this from guys who fancy huffing and sputtering into crockery.) I'm not political enough for the politically bent and not funny enough for the comically twisted.

I know you can't please everyone, but I wonder, just where my niche is, if there even is such a place. To date I have not found a place among others of like mind. Have I inadvertently painted myself into a musical corner via my eclectic musical pursuits? So many of those here seem to have a much clearer understanding of where your place is. You can easily state just what kind of music you play and name the type of musical category it falls under. Okay, maybe I'm not actually looking for a category to fit into. I'm happy enough being the square peg that won't fit into the round hole. I guess I'm just wondering if there are others out there who have come to the same conclusion and what you do you call the kind of music you play?

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 03:30 PM

Nichless: My particular musical "problem" is related to yours. I see myself as a musical " butterfly", flitting between styles and instruments, and never settling for long in one musical place. In one way, I admire people who find a music nich and stay there. But another side of me wonders how they can do it i.e. play the same type of music year after year. I suppose, musically, I want to do everything but, of course there isn't the time, and, besides, I lack the talent so achieve such a goal.

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: Mudlark
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 12:15 AM

Nicheless...

It sounds like you are deeply involved in what you do play and enjoy it. So is the problem that you want to play with others, "jam" with others, and can't find anybody to fit with? I'm pretty nicheless myself, started out as a dyed in the wood folkie, but have since wandered into contemporary singer-songwriter stuff, 20's, 30's stuff like Fats Waller, a little (sadly) white bread blues.... Acoustic is it for me, tho, whatever genre I wander into.

Maybe you need to find a song circle setting, where you could do what you do when your turn comes around, w/o having to fit with anybody else. If you like what you do, other people are likely to enjoy it as well. (And if you find one, let me know...i could use one myself!)

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: open mike
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 02:36 AM

i hear a "new" genre being called americana..
of course that has it's limits as it refers
only to USA, and if you are in another part
of the world, that would not apply.

but it seems to be a good label for the type of music
i enjoy most, folk, bluegrass, old timey, new grass,
(is there such a thing as new timey :>) ) acoustic,
ballads, instrumental, fiddle tunes, ethnic, alt.country, why do
we always want to fit things into a neat little category?

http://www.americanamusic.org/

http://www.americana-music.com/

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 05:15 AM

My niche?

My musical interests are wide. I was brought up on Classical & Religious. Listened to some Country while living in Bundaberg, then moved to the big smoke, and discovered jazz, opera, blues, bluesgrass 60/70's folk, 60/70's rock, 60/70's pop, "electronique", then medieval music, then moved back into mostly acoustic, almost any type. Along the way I also acquired a love of Music Hall, Australian Trad, Irish, Scottish, "World Music" and a few other styles I don't recall now... Along the way I have acquired several instruments too...

I really prefer to play with others than solo...

Finding people to play compataible music styles with can be tedious... you are easily dismissed if you are not some sort of "expert" in the narrow field that is their favourite...

Robin
(Brisbane Qld)

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: harvey andrews
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 07:29 AM

you're unique...not a bad thing to be!You just have to make others see it and then you become a niche they aim at!!!

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 01:47 PM

the trick in such cases, as **I** see it, is to try to blend with whatever group you are around at the moment. Since you do enjoy such divergent musical styles, you might find it reasonably easy.

If you insist on doing every style a little bit differently from what the group does, you will always encounter 'some' resistance. "Niches" exist for a reason...people have certain tastes, and look for those who do something similar. It is all very well to push boundries, but sometimes you need to do from within...that is, learn what they DO, then try new things and see what happens. If you 'must' mix it up at all times, you'll have to be prepared for static from those who don't.

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 02:14 PM

Harvey, well said as usual!
Nicheless, go and find an acoustic gathering. If not advetise and set one up. I have one in my local town (Richmond -upon -Thames.) It is an eclectic mix of singer song writers, poets, newbie's and top flight artists. I go and perform. I like you have a very mixed repertoire. I play: Jazz, folk, jugband, cajun (Fiddle), blugrass, Latin, Bossa, acoustic blues. I go and sing what I want. If there are alot of say folkies on a particular evening i will play/sing jazz. Or if there is a mix of jazzers/folkies i will play some arabic stuff Benbow taught me. You have the keys to make yourself a cut above the rest. DON'T GET DISHARTENED. I did that a long time ago and wanted to give it all up - then i met Steve (My mentor) and he showed me how to enjoy and work an audience to MY way of things. (Some will argue this point) sometimes you have to say "f**k the lot of you." you have to play/sing what you want to do. You are there also to enjoy yourself!!
Join this forum so you can interact with others. You might find out that there are people who live around you that you never knew about. Also you can take full advantage of the personal mail attached to this site.
Best regards.
   Pete.

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 10:45 AM

I know exactly what you're talking about, nicheless, since I have the same problem--after much reflection, it has occurred to me that our problem is that when you move from niche to niche, you're alway playing relatively unfamiliar material with people who know it--that means that you are following and fudging while they are playing stuff that they have learned, practiced, and polished--

The real problem is that you are walking in to a musical situation cold, and expecting to be able pick up the repertoire, work out your parts, and create appropriate solos completely off the cuff--this only comfortable if:

A)Everyone else in the group is doing it too,
B)You are a more experienced musician than the people you are playing with, or
C)You are a hot shot studio musician--

The possible solutions are:

A)Organize and lead the sessions yourself
B)Find a group of people that like the kind of music you do
C)Get a bunch of less experienced players and teach them to play what you want
D)Polish your "Pick-up" musician skills--

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: GUEST,Claire
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 02:44 PM

Nichless,

I can understand your frustration, but I wonder if you are taking into consideration what others are after. If you are coming in and playing with a style that crosses genre boundaries, the other musicians will likely not focus on you or your playing, in fact you may be a distraction to them. That can certainly feel like rejection, but it may be a result of the gut level need on the part of the other musicians to hear the "true" sounds of that particular genre. I don't use the word "need" lightly; music and music making can be passionate.

Some may see playing a particular genre as limiting, but others, including myself, see it as incredibly interesting and expansive. For example, it takes a long time for most of us to really understand and hear what makes us sound particularly Irish, old time, whatever, and when we have the opportunity to make that sound, our gut reaction is don't get in our way. Though we curb those feelings with social niceties and respect, we probably won't gravitate toward those that have different goals and that do not have the respect for the genre that we are fostering.

I hope you can find musicians to cross those boundaries with you, but you might need to start a band with likeminded folks instead of relying on the jam scene.

Good luck,
Claire

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 04:12 PM

I sympathise, but...why do we need a niche? The term is used excessively by marketers nowadays, and implies that you want to find the pool to be a big/small/medium size fish in. And then you can be labelled so people can find you easily on the racks.
But most of us (even professionals, like Harvey and others, I suspect) are in it primarily because we enjoy what we do.
So - enjoy what you do; find those that you enjoy listening to, and play them your stuff; the chances are they will appreciate at least some of it.
What niche is Tom Paxton in? Or Ralph McTell? Or Eric Bogle? Or Andy Irvine? Or...etc etc. Pick the "big names" you like - that's your niche.
But I repeat: you don't need one. Don't look for labels. Look for people, individuals who like what you do.

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 04:50 PM

Yes, but niches are comfort zones and can be attuned to musical ability. For example, I am very comfortable and adept at playing bluegrass, but as much as I might like to listen to gypsy jazz, I do not have a real feel for playing it. I know others who are strictly solo players and realize that is their niche. They are horrible when it comes to playing with others.

Personally, I think it is fine to be somewhat versatile in many areas, but even more so to be an expert and play with a passion in a specific one.

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 06:45 PM

Each Friday evening for the last few years I have had a song circle at my home. 12 to 20 people show up, with a core group of 10 or so. (On occasion, someone will bring along someone in town on tour and we get to hear some really neat stuff.)

As said by someone above, the selections go 'round the circle- or you can pass, or you can request someone else to do a tune or song (that doesn't count as the other person's turn). There aren't many restrictions- except it's all acoustic, no drums, no Beatles. (!) {I also don't like 'Cluck, Old Hen'. So there.}

A typical evening consists of fiddle tunes where everyone plays fast and furiously, with the songwriter types participating by watching others' chords; original songs (everyone backs off and makes sure we all can hear); a young lesbian couple who sing very well together (and one of whom has a remarkable voice) do a lot of Indigo Girls; one man with the warmest voice you ever heard does a lot of Steve Goodman/John Prine/Shel Silverstein/Randy Newman/Jesse Winchester; one man who has a tenor voice and a tremendous memory for lyrics does a lot of folk songs like 'The Colonial Boy', 'Across the Great Divide', 'Ramblin' Boy', 'The Escape of Old John Web' and the old version of 'Wildwood Flower'; one man who has a great voice and a wondrous memory does old country songs, none younger than the 60s, (He does a lot of Webb Pierce, Ernest Tubb, Faron Young, Lefty Frizzell, you get the picture); one of us does a lot of Carter Family and Ginny Hawker; another does songs like 'Monongahela Sal', 'I Never Will Marry', 'The Texas River Song', etc... Of course, we all sing along on choruses and whenever and wherever the singer wants harmonies.

Instruments range from fiddle, mando, banjo, autoharp, guitar, harmonica and back again. And voice. Lots of voice.

My point is that we bring a lot of different interests and approaches to the table, and we all contribute, we're all welcome.

It may take time to find/create a group like ours but it can be done. As I told one friend who had recently moved to a village: If I move to a town of 1000 people, I know there are at least 30 people there who play something; out of those 30 there are at least 10 who would like to play with someone else; I'm going to find those 10 people.

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 06:51 PM

Nice attitude, Ebbie - I like it.
Shame you don't live in my town...

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 07:23 PM

El Greko, are there 1000 people in your town?

:)

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: Mudlark
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 08:39 PM

Ebbie...You've inspired me to try again! Hmmm....maybe a different flyer...

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 09:18 PM

One of the advertising places I would utilize is the bulletin board in a grocery store. You can always meet in a coffee shop to evaluate responses.

Subject: RE: musical niche question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 09:47 PM

What niche is Tom Paxton in? The Tom Paxton niche!
Or Ralph McTell? The Ralph McTell niche!
Or Eric Bogle? The Eric Bogle niche!
Or Andy Irvine? The Andy Irvine niche!

and so on...

What niche are modern pop/rock singers in?
Whatever their record company tells them!

Robin